Emeren Group Ltd (SOL) 2024 Q4 法說會逐字稿

Hello, ladies and gentlemen. Thank you for standing by for Emeren Group Limited fourth-quarter 2024 earnings conference call. Please note that we are recording today's conference call. (Operator Instructions)

女士們、先生們，大家好。感謝您參加 Emeren Group Limited 2024 年第四季財報電話會議。請注意，我們正在錄製今天的電話會議。（操作員指示）

I will turn the call over to Gary Dvorchak, Managing Director of The Blueshirt Group. Please go ahead, Mr. Dvorchak.

我將把電話轉給 Blueshirt Group 的董事總經理 Gary Dvorchak。請繼續，德沃夏克先生。

Thank you, operator, and hello, everyone. Thank you for joining us today to discuss the fourth-quarter and full-year 2024 results. We released our shareholder letter after the market closed today, and it's available on our website at ir.emeren.com. We also provided a supplemental presentation that's posted on our IR website that we will reference during our prepared remarks.

謝謝接線員，大家好。感謝您今天加入我們討論 2024 年第四季和全年業績。我們在今天股市收盤後發布了致股東的信，您可以在我們的網站 ir.emeren.com 上查閱。我們還提供了補充演示文稿，發佈在我們的 IR 網站上，我們將在準備好的演講中參考它。

On the call with me today are Mr. Yumin Liu, Chief Executive Officer; Mr. Ke Chen, Chief Financial Officer; and Mr. Enrico Bocchi, Executive Vice President of Europe. Yumin and Ke will provide an overview of our business performance and financial results, followed by a Q&A session, during which Enrico will also be available to answer questions.

今天與我一起參加電話會議的有執行長劉玉民先生；陳柯先生，財務長；以及歐洲執行副總裁 Enrico Bocchi 先生。Yumin 和 Ke 將概述我們的業務表現和財務業績，然後進行問答環節，在此期間 Enrico 也將回答問題。

Before we continue, please turn to slide 2. Let me remind you that remarks made during this call may include predictions, estimates or other information that might be considered forward-looking. These forward-looking statements represent Emeren Group's current judgment for the future. However, they are subject to risks and uncertainties that could cause actual results to differ materially. Those risks are described under Risk Factors and elsewhere in Emeren Group's filings with the SEC. Please do not place undue reliance on these forward-looking statements, which reflect Emeren Group's opinions only as of the date of this call. Emeren Group is not obliged to update you on any revisions to forward-looking statements.

在我們繼續之前，請翻到投影片 2。讓我提醒您，本次電話會議中的言論可能包括預測、估計或其他可能被視為前瞻性的資訊。這些前瞻性陳述代表了 Emeren Group 對未來的當前判斷。然而，它們受到風險和不確定性的影響，可能導致實際結果大不相同。這些風險在「風險因素」和 Emeren Group 向美國證券交易委員會提交的其他文件中進行了描述。請不要過度依賴這些前瞻性陳述，這些陳述僅反映 Emeren Group 截至本次電話會議之日的觀點。Emeren Group 沒有義務向您更新任何前瞻性聲明的修訂。

In addition, please note that all financial numbers discussed on this call are unaudited. Also, please note that unless otherwise stated, all figures mentioned during the conference call are in US dollars.

此外，請注意，本次電話會議討論的所有財務數據均未經審計。另請注意，除非另有說明，電話會議中提到的所有數字均以美元為單位。

With that, let me now turn the call over to Mr. Yumin Liu. Yumin, go ahead.

現在，請允許我將電話轉給劉玉民先生。裕民，你繼續吧。

Thank you, Gary, and thank you, everyone, for joining today. Let me start with a brief overview of our Q4 and full-year results before discussing our business outlook and key financial catalysts. After that, Ke will take you through a detailed breakdown of our financial performance and 2025 guidance.

謝謝加里，也謝謝大家今天的參加。在討論我們的業務前景和關鍵財務催化劑之前，我首先簡要概述我們的第四季和全年業績。之後，Ke 將帶您詳細了解我們的財務表現和 2025 年指引。

2024 was a year of resilience and disciplined execution and strategic growth for Emeren. Despite currency headwinds and project sale delays, we successfully monetized renewable energy assets, expanded our energy storage footprint, and generated positive free cash flow in Q4. Our IPP and DSA segments provided high margins and stable cash flows, while strategic project monetization strengthened our financial position.

2024 年對 Emeren 來說，是堅韌不拔、嚴格執行和策略成長的一年。儘管面臨貨幣逆風和專案銷售延遲，我們仍成功將再生能源資產貨幣化，擴大了我們的能源儲存足跡，並在第四季度產生了正的自由現金流。我們的IPP和DSA部門提供了高利潤和穩定的現金流，而策略性項目貨幣化增強了我們的財務狀況。

For the full year, we generated $92.1 million in revenue and $24.1 million in gross profit with a 26% gross margin. We reported an operating loss of $0.5 million, while non-cash and unrealized foreign exchange loss resulted in a $12.5 million net loss attributed to Emeren Group. However, operating cash flow improved significantly towards breakeven, reaching negative $4.2 million compared to negative $23.4 million a year ago and adjusted EBITDA rose to $6.9 million, demonstrating disciplined financial execution.

全年我們創造了 9,210 萬美元的收入和 2,410 萬美元的毛利，毛利率為 26%。我們報告的營業虧損為 50 萬美元，而非現金和未實現外匯損失導致 Emeren Group 淨虧損 1,250 萬美元。然而，經營現金流大幅改善，已接近收支平衡，從去年的負 2,340 萬美元降至負 420 萬美元，調整後的 EBITDA 升至 690 萬美元，表明財務執行十分嚴謹。

Turning to Q4 specifically. We maintained strong financial discipline and cash flow generation, delivering $34.6 million in revenue and $4.8 million in gross profit with a solid 14% gross margin. While foreign exchange losses due to US dollar strength impacting net income, our operating loss improved by 35% year over year in Q4, reflecting strong cost control. We also generated over $5 million in free cash flow in Q4, reinforcing our strong liquidity position.

具體來說第四季。我們維持了嚴格的財務紀律和現金流創造，實現了 3,460 萬美元的收入和 480 萬美元的毛利，毛利率高達 14%。雖然美元走強造成的外匯損失影響了淨收入，但我們第四季的營業虧損年增了 35%，反映出強而有力的成本控制。我們還在第四季度產生了超過 500 萬美元的自由現金流，增強了我們強大的流動性狀況。

Our capital-light model and early-stage monetization strategy continue to support financial strength. We ended the year with $50 million in cash, up 40% sequentially, positioning us well for growth in 2025. With a strong pipeline, expanding energy storage initiatives, and disciplined execution, we are positioned to scale profitably and drive long-term shareholder value.

我們的輕資本模式和早期貨幣化策略持續支持財務實力。我們截至今年年底的現金餘額為 5,000 萬美元，比上一季成長 40%，為我們 2025 年的成長做好了準備。憑藉強大的管道、不斷擴展的能源儲存計劃以及嚴格的執行力，我們能夠擴大獲利規模並推動長期股東價值。

Turning to our key milestones in Q4. We successfully closed several strategic transactions, further solidifying our leadership in renewable energy monetization and energy storage across Europe, the US, and China. In Europe, we successfully completed the COD sale of our 17-megawatt solar project portfolio in Poland with 50 megawatts under a PPA, reinforcing our strong foothold in the region. We also expanded our energy storage footprint in Italy, executing a 462-megawatt DSA for battery energy storage system with Arpinge, further strengthening our leadership in the growing energy storage market.

回顧我們第四季的關鍵里程碑。我們成功完成了幾項策略交易，進一步鞏固了我們在歐洲、美國和中國再生能源貨幣化和能源儲存領域的領導地位。在歐洲，我們成功完成了波蘭 17 兆瓦太陽能專案組合的 COD 銷售，其中 50 兆瓦透過 PPA 銷售，鞏固了我們在該地區的穩固地位。我們還擴大了在義大利的能源儲存足跡，與 Arpinge 合作實施了 462 兆瓦的電池能源儲存系統 DSA，進一步鞏固了我們在不斷增長的能源儲存市場中的領導地位。

Additionally, we finalized the sale of 65 megawatts of solar projects in Germany to Trina through a mixed DSA/SPA structure, underscoring the strength of our development partnerships.

此外，我們最終透過混合 DSA/SPA 結構向天合光能出售位於德國的 65 兆瓦太陽能項目，彰顯了我們發展合作關係的實力。

In the United States, we made further progress in distributed generation by closing the COD sale of our 2.8-megawatt community solar project to Altus Power, demonstrating our ability to capture opportunities in the US community solar market.

在美國，我們在分散式發電領域取得了進一步進展，完成了向Altus Power的2.8兆瓦社區太陽能專案的COD銷售，展示了我們抓住美國社區太陽能市場機會的能力。

Meanwhile, in China, we advanced our energy storage strategy with the successful commissioning of 18-megawatt hour of BESS projects, which are now fully integrated into Huaneng Power International's Virtual Power Plant platform. This integration enhances grid stability and further strengthens our presence in China's evolving energy storage sector. These achievements highlight our ability to execute across multiple regions, efficiently monetize projects, and expand our renewable energy portfolio while reinforcing contracted cash flow generation.

同時，在中國，我們推進了我們的儲能策略，成功調試了18兆瓦時的BESS項目，這些項目現已完全融入華能國際虛擬電廠平台。此次整合增強了電網穩定性，並進一步加強了我們在中國不斷發展的能源儲存領域的地位。這些成就凸顯了我們在多個地區執行、有效將專案貨幣化以及擴大再生能源組合同時加強合約現金流產生的能力。

Now, turning to our core business segments. Our high-margin DSA model remains a key driver of stable revenue and early-stage project monetization. In 2024, we recognized $19 million in DSA revenue, primarily from Italy and Germany. As of year-end, we had DSA contracts with nine partners covering 40 projects totaling over 2.8 gigawatts with approximately $84 million in contracted revenue expected to be realized over the next two to three years as well as more than $100 million in uncontracted revenue currently under negotiation.

現在，轉向我們的核心業務部門。我們的高利潤 DSA 模式仍然是穩定收入和早期專案貨幣化的關鍵驅動力。2024 年，我們實現了 1,900 萬美元的 DSA 收入，主要來自義大利和德國。截至年底，我們已與 9 個合作夥伴簽訂了 DSA 合同，涵蓋 40 個項目，總計超過 2.8 吉瓦，預計未來兩到三年內將實現約 8400 萬美元的合同收入，目前正在談判的未合同收入超過 1 億美元。

Meanwhile, our IPP segment played a crucial role in supporting stable cash flow, contributing 31% of the total revenue and 64% of the total gross profit. In Q4, we optimized our portfolio across Europe and China while further advancing energy storage integration to enhance long-term profitability.

同時，我們的IPP部門在支持穩定現金流方面發揮了至關重要的作用，貢獻了總收入的31%和總毛利的64%。第四季度，我們優化了歐洲和中國的投資組合，同時進一步推進儲能整合，以提高長期獲利能力。

Complementing these efforts, our solar development business continued to generate strong monetization opportunities. In 2024, we successfully monetized about 200 megawatts of solar PV projects across Germany, France, Spain, Poland, China, and the US, alongside 1.3 gigawatts of BESS projects. These achievements reinforce the strength of our capital-light development model and our ability to efficiently recycle capital for future growth. Looking ahead, we remain very confident in our ability to execute our growth strategy and drive profitability in 2025.

除了這些努力之外，我們的太陽能開發業務繼續創造強大的貨幣化機會。2024 年，我們成功將德國、法國、西班牙、波蘭、中國和美國的約 200 兆瓦太陽能光伏專案以及 1.3 千兆瓦 BESS 專案貨幣化。這些成就增強了我們輕資本發展模式的優勢以及我們有效回收資本以實現未來成長的能力。展望未來，我們對執行成長策略和在 2025 年實現盈利的能力仍然充滿信心。

While project sales timing delays impacted Q4 revenue recognition, these projects remain on track to close in the first half of 2025, reinforcing near-term revenue visibility. Key drivers for our 2025 financial outlook include, our strong contracted revenue base provides a solid foundation for future growth. We have $84 million in contracted DSA revenue with an additional $100 million under negotiation, strengthening long-term cash flow visibility and revenue stability. Overall, with 75% of our DSA pipeline concentrated in Europe, we are positioned to capitalize on demand growth across key markets.

雖然專案銷售時間延遲影響了第四季度的收入確認，但這些項目仍有望在 2025 年上半年完成，從而增強了近期收入的可見度。我們 2025 年財務前景的關鍵驅動因素包括：我們強大的合約收入基礎為未來成長提供了堅實的基礎。我們已簽訂了 8,400 萬美元的 DSA 收入，另有 1 億美元正在談判中，這增強了長期現金流的可見度和收入穩定性。總體而言，由於我們 75% 的 DSA 管道集中在歐洲，我們有能力利用主要市場的需求成長。

Building on this momentum, our high-margin DSA and IPP businesses continue to generate strong gross margin and predictable cash flows, supporting sustainable and profitable expansions. Additionally, our robust monetization pipeline positions us well to capitalize on growing market demand. With approximately 4.3 gigawatts advanced-stage storage pipeline and 2.4 gigawatts of solar PV projects, we have a clear path for long-term growth in key regions.

在此勢頭的基礎上，我們高利潤的 DSA 和 IPP 業務繼續產生強勁的毛利率和可預測的現金流，支持可持續和盈利的擴張。此外，我們強大的貨幣化管道使我們能夠充分利用不斷增長的市場需求。憑藉約 4.3 千兆瓦的高級儲存管道和 2.4 千兆瓦的太陽能光伏項目，我們在關鍵地區的長期成長路徑清晰。

Further strengthening our outlook, the opening of China merchant power market in 2025 presents a significant opportunity. Our BESS assets are strategically positioned to capture new revenue streams through energy arbitrage, reinforcing our leadership in energy storage and grid services.

進一步加強我們的展望，2025年中國招商電力市場的開放帶來了重大機會。我們的 BESS 資產具有策略性定位，可透過能源套利獲取新的收入來源，鞏固我們在能源儲存和電網服務方面的領導地位。

With that, let me turn the call over to our CFO, Ke Chen, to provide a more detailed breakdown of our financial performance and 2025 guidance. Ke?

接下來，我將把電話轉給我們的財務長陳科，請他更詳細地介紹我們的財務表現和 2025 年指引。可？

Thank you, Yumin, and thanks, everyone, again for joining us on the call today. In Q4, we delivered $34.6 million in revenue, down 23% year over year primarily due to project delays pending government approvals. However, it surged 169% quarter by quarter, driven by successful project monetization. While timing delays in the US and Europe impact Q4 revenue recognition, this project remains on track to close in the first half of 2025, providing strong near-term visibility.

謝謝你，Yumin，也再次感謝大家今天參加我們的電話會議。第四季度，我們的收入為 3,460 萬美元，年減 23%，主要原因是專案因等待政府批准而延遲。然而，受專案成功貨幣化的推動，其季度環比增長了 169%。儘管美國和歐洲的時間延遲影響了第四季度的收入確認，但該項目仍有望在 2025 年上半年完成，從而提供了強勁的短期可見性。

Gross profit was $4.8 million compared to $5.6 million in Q3 2024 and $5.1 million in Q4 2023. Gross margin was 13.9%, down from 43.8% in Q3 2024 but up from 11.3% in Q4 2023. The year-over-year improvement reflects the continued strength of our high-margin IPP and DSA business.

毛利為 480 萬美元，而 2024 年第三季為 560 萬美元，2023 年第四季為 510 萬美元。毛利率為 13.9%，低於 2024 年第三季的 43.8%，但高於 2023 年第四季的 11.3%。同比成長反映了我們高利潤的 IPP 和 DSA 業務的持續強勁。

Operating expenses were $9.2 million, up from $3.5 million in Q3 2024 but down from $11.8 million in Q4 2023. The annual decline was primarily due to reduced write-offs and the absence of asset impairment losses.

營運費用為 920 萬美元，高於 2024 年第三季的 350 萬美元，但低於 2023 年第四季的 1,180 萬美元。年度下降主要是由於註銷減少和沒有資產減值損失。

Net loss attributed to Emeren Group Ltd., common shareholder was $11.8 million compared to net income of $4.8 million in Q3 2024 and a net loss of $2 million in Q4 2023. The increase in net loss was primarily due to nonoperational foreign exchange losses. Diluted net loss attributed to Emeren Group Ltd., common shareholder per ADS was $0.23 compared to diluted net income of $0.09 in Q3 2024 and diluted net loss of $0.04 in Q4 2023.

歸屬於 Emeren Group Ltd. 普通股股東的淨虧損為 1,180 萬美元，而 2024 年第三季的淨收入為 480 萬美元，2023 年第四季的淨虧損為 200 萬美元。淨虧損增加主要是由於非經營性外匯損失。歸屬於 Emeren Group Ltd. 普通股股東的每股 ADS 稀釋淨虧損為 0.23 美元，而 2024 年第三季的稀釋淨收入為 0.09 美元，2023 年第四季的稀釋淨虧損為 0.04 美元。

From a cash flow perspective, we generated $10.4 million in operating cash flow and over $5 million in free cash flow, further enhancing our financial flexibility. Cash used in investing activity was $5 million, and the cash provided by financing activity was $2.8 million. We ended Q4 2024 with $50 million in cash and cash equivalents, up 40% sequentially from $35.8 million in Q3 2024, reinforcing our strong liquidity position.

從現金流角度來看，我們產生了1040萬美元的經營現金流和超過500萬美元的自由現金流，進一步增強了我們的財務靈活性。投資活動所用現金為 500 萬美元，籌資活動提供的現金為 280 萬美元。截至 2024 年第四季度，我們的現金和現金等價物為 5,000 萬美元，較 2024 年第三季的 3,580 萬美元環比增長 40%，增強了我們強大的流動性狀況。

Our debt-to-asset ratio at the end of Q4 2024 was around 11.2% compared to 10.2% at the end of Q3 2024. The majority of our debt was nonrecourse project financing.

截至 2024 年第四季末，我們的資產負債比率約為 11.2%，而截至 2024 年第三季末，我們的資產負債比率僅為 10.2%。我們的債務大多是無追索權項目融資。

In 2024, Europe contributed over 70% of our total revenue and China contributed 19%. Both generate positive operating cash flow. We are seeing a strong execution and steady growth in both regions.

2024年，歐洲貢獻了我們總收入的70%以上，中國貢獻了19%。兩者都產生了正的經營現金流。我們看到這兩個地區的執行力強勁且成長穩定。

Turning to our 2025 outlook. We expect full year revenue to be in the range of $80 million to $100 million with a gross margin of 30% to 33%. IPP revenue is anticipated to be between $28 million and $30 million with around 50% gross margin. DSA is expected to contribute $35 million to $45 million in revenue. IPP and DSA contribute -- will be expected to contribute over 70% of total revenue in 2025.

展望 2025 年。我們預計全年收入將在 8,000 萬至 1 億美元之間，毛利率將在 30% 至 33% 之間。IPP 收入預計在 2,800 萬美元至 3,000 萬美元之間，毛利率約為 50%。DSA預計將貢獻3500萬至4500萬美元的收入。IPP 和 DSA 貢獻－預計到 2025 年將貢獻總收入的 70% 以上。

Additionally, we anticipate achieving positive operating cash flow in 2025. For the first half of 2025, we anticipate revenue in the range of $30 million to $35 million, with a gross margin of approximately 30% to 33%.

此外，我們預計 2025 年將實現正經營現金流。2025 年上半年，我們預計營收在 3,000 萬美元至 3,500 萬美元之間，毛利率約為 30% 至 33%。

With that, let's open up the call for any questions. Operator, please go ahead.

好了，讓我們開始回答任何問題。接線員，請繼續。

(Operator Instructions) Philip Shen, Roth Capital Partners.

（操作員指示）Roth Capital Partners 的 Philip Shen。

Hey everyone, thanks for taking my questions. I wanted to talk about the '25 guide. Specifically, can you share what the mix is between DSA revenue and IPP revenue, and if there's any other revenue in the third bucket? Thanks.

大家好，感謝你們回答我的問題。我想談談 25 指南。具體來說，您能否分享 DSA 收入和 IPP 收入之間的組合情況，以及第三個類別中是否還有其他收入？謝謝。

Phil, we just talked about this. IPP revenue will be between $28 million to $30 million in 2025, and we did mention gross margin will be around 50%. DSA revenue will roughly be between $35 million to $45 million. So added up, IPP and DSA contribute almost -- will contribute almost 70% of our revenue.

菲爾，我們剛剛討論過這個。2025 年 IPP 收入將在 2,800 萬美元至 3,000 萬美元之間，我們確實提到毛利率將在 50% 左右。DSA 收入約在 3,500 萬至 4,500 萬美元之間。因此加起來，IPP 和 DSA 貢獻了我們幾乎 70% 的收入。

Great. Sorry, I missed that. And you talked about how there's another incremental $100 million of DSA revenue that you're negotiating now. Do you have a sense for what the geographic mix of that DSA revenue is? Is it also European-concentrated?

偉大的。抱歉，我忘了。您談到了現在正在協商另外 1 億美元的 DSA 收入增量。您是否了解 DSA 收入的地理分佈？也是以歐洲為中心嗎？

And then does it have similar -- do you expect high margins for that incremental $100 million? And then when do you think you could start to close the bulk or majority of that $100 million? Is that in the coming months, or do you think it might take most of '25 to secure the $100 million? Thanks.

那麼它是否有相似之處——您是否預計增量的 1 億美元會帶來高利潤？那麼，您認為什麼時候可以開始償還這 1 億美元的大部分呢？這是在接下來的幾個月裡，還是您認為可能需要 25 年的大部分時間才能獲得 1 億美元？謝謝。

We target to close all of them within this year. And a couple of them are -- several of them are in the final stage to be closed within the next two to three months and more is coming. As you see that, we do have a very welcomed product pipeline on both solar and storage.

我們的目標是在今年內解決所有問題。其中有幾個項目已經進入最後階段，將在未來兩到三個月內完成，還有更多的項目即將完成。正如您所看到的，我們在太陽能和儲能方面確實擁有非常受歡迎的產品線。

We have built up the strong track record on the DSA position. And that is why that we are super confident on our 2025 guidance. Two reasons. One is, as Ke just mentioned that the 70% of the revenue and margin will be coming from the contracted IPP and DSAs.

我們在 DSA 職位上建立了良好的業績記錄。這就是我們對 2025 年指引充滿信心的原因。兩個原因。一是，正如柯剛提到的，70%的收入和利潤將來自簽約的IPP和DSA。

And another confidence is coming from the to-be-built DSA positions. And at least five to six contracts are being finalized and to be inked in the next two to three months, and more are coming.

另一個信心則來自於即將建立的DSA職位。至少有五到六份合約即將敲定並將在未來兩到三個月內簽署，而且還有更多合約即將簽署。

Yeah. Phil, in terms of breakdown, I think Europe will be around 70% and the US will be 30%.

是的。菲爾，就具體比例而言，我認為歐洲將佔 70% 左右，美國將佔 30%。

Great. Okay. And then can you talk about the types of counterparties for the $100 million that you're negotiating? Are there any repeat customers or partners, or are they mostly new customers and counterparties? Thank you.

偉大的。好的。然後您能談談您正在談判的 1 億美元交易對手的類型嗎？有沒有回頭客或合作夥伴，還是大多是新客戶和新交易對手？謝謝。

I think it's about half are existing customers repeated and another half are the new customers.

我認為大約一半是現有回頭客，另一半是新客戶。

Okay. That's good. And then for 2025, sorry if I missed this, but did you guys share what your cash generation or free cash flow outlook might be? If you haven't, perhaps you can give us some color.

好的。那挺好的。然後對於 2025 年，如果我錯過了，很抱歉，但你們有沒有分享過你們的現金產生或自由現金流前景？如果你還沒有，也許你可以給我們一些資訊。

Yes. We're certainly talking about we expect positive operating cash flow in 2025. So we ended in 2024 $50 million. So we truly believe we should have a higher cash at the end of 2025.

是的。我們當然在談論我們預計 2025 年的營運現金流為正。因此我們在 2024 年的最終目標是 5000 萬美元。因此，我們確實相信到 2025 年底我們的現金將會更多。

Okay, great. Thanks for taking all my questions. I'll pass it on.

好的，太好了。感謝您回答我的所有問題。我會傳達的。

Thank you, Phil.

謝謝你，菲爾。

Thanks.

謝謝。

(Operator Instructions) We have a follow-up question from Phillip Shen, your line is now open.

（操作員指示）我們收到了來自 Phillip Shen 的後續問題，您的線路現已開通。

Philip, did you have a follow-up question?

菲利普，你還有其他問題嗎？

Yes. Can you guys hear me?

是的。你們聽得到我說話嗎？

Yes.

是的。

Great. Okay. So let's talk about the delays. You've consistently had pretty -- a number of delays that unfortunately result in expectations or results that are weaker than expectations. So do you think -- the delays in Europe and the US for government approvals and so forth, do you think we've seen the worst of it? Or do you think it could get worse from here? And if it's -- if we've seen the worst of it, how much could it improve? Do you expect to see improvements in '25? Or do we have to wait for '26? Thanks.

偉大的。好的。那麼讓我們來談談延遲問題。您一直都遇到過相當多的延誤，不幸的是，這些延誤導致預期或結果低於預期。那麼，您是否認為——歐洲和美國政府批准的延遲等等，我們已經看到了最糟糕的情況？或者您認為情況可能會變得更糟？如果我們已經看到了最糟糕的情況，那麼情況還能改善多少？您預計 25 年會出現改善嗎？還是我們必須等到 26 年？謝謝。

This is a very good and interesting question. What we see here is that the -- for example, in Spain, we could not close the deals as of the government approval. Those two major transactions we could not close, none of them. And one of them, we already waited for 18 months, and we still have not got it. But there is a deadline.

這是一個非常好且有趣的問題。我們在這裡看到的是——例如，在西班牙，由於政府批准，我們無法完成交易。那兩筆重大交易我們都沒能完成，一筆都沒能完成。其中有一個我們已經等了18個月了，但仍然沒有收到。但有一個最後期限。

The government published deadlines for 12 months and additional three months, additional three months, and deadline is coming, and we see that is ending in less than three months. So that is one thing. I see that the European governments are moving faster as, for example, Spain, they have to have the strong supporting policies to support renewable energy, including storage. That's one example. Only uncertainty we could not foresee is in the US, but the good part is our DSA structure.

政府公佈的期限為 12 個月和額外三個月，額外三個月，期限即將到來，我們看到期限將在不到三個月的時間內結束。這是一回事。我看到歐洲各國政府的行動越來越快，例如西班牙，他們必須制定強而有力的支持政策來支持再生能源，包括儲能。這是一個例子。我們唯一無法預見的不確定性是在美國，但好的部分是我們的 DSA 結構。

Also, let me comment another one on European DSA structure. We normally split the DSA payments into three to four milestones or sometimes even five milestones. As we go through all the milestones in 2025, I mean this year, we do see the impact from the government approvals on the DSA milestones is very minimal. That's why we have the certainty or high confidence we will deliver in 2025.

此外，讓我再對歐洲 DSA 結構發表另一條評論。我們通常將 DSA 付款分為三到四個里程碑，有時甚至分為五個里程碑。當我們經歷 2025 年的所有里程碑時，我的意思是今年，我們確實看到政府批准對 DSA 里程碑的影響非常小。這就是為什麼我們有信心在 2025 年實現這一目標。

Interconnection approval delays in the US is expected. But the most DSAs we are signing in the US, we are expecting only milestone one payments in 2025. Some expect milestone two, which related to interconnection approval, and we are getting them and actually want to be signed within this month, next two weeks. So we see in the future maybe if the government in the US slows down the process of approvals, that may impact our '27/'28 DSA milestone payments, but we don't see near-term impacts even in the US.

預計美國的互連審批將會延遲。但我們在美國簽署的大多數 DSA 中，我們預計 2025 年只會收到第一階段的付款。有些人期待第二個里程碑，即與互連互通批准有關的里程碑，我們正在獲得這些批准，並且實際上希望在本月或接下來的兩週內簽署。因此，我們認為，如果美國政府未來放慢審批流程，這可能會影響我們 27/28 年的 DSA 里程碑付款，但即使在美國，我們也不會看到短期影響。

Okay, thanks.

好的，謝謝。

I want to add, in US, we also have this community solar segment, which we believe we are moving along despite the federal uncertainty. So community solar still get approved as normal. So we think those projects we are -- on our pipeline, we will see that execution in 2025.

我想補充一點，在美國，我們也有社區太陽能部門，儘管聯邦政府存在不確定性，但我們相信我們正在向前發展。因此社區太陽能仍能正常獲得批准。因此，我們認為我們正在進行的那些計畫將在 2025 年實施。

Okay. So remind us for your US projects, what percentage is community solar and then what percentage might be larger scale in the 100 to 200-plus megawatt level?

好的。那麼請提醒我們，對於您的美國項目，社區太陽能佔比是多少，100 到 200 多兆瓦級別的更大規模佔比是多少？

See, from megawatt size, as utility scale size is a lot bigger and the community solar size is a lot smaller, so it's hard to really make the monetary judgment or predict the financial results from the megawatt numbers as especially the margin on development fee for big deals will be normally in single digit, and community solar is several times or many times of that margin. So on the megawatt side, I would say the total utility scale and compared to community solar, I would say 80/20.

從兆瓦規模來看，公用事業規模要大得多，而社區太陽能規模要小得多，因此很難真正做出貨幣判斷或根據兆瓦數字預測財務結果，尤其是大交易的開發費用利潤率通常為個位數，而社區太陽能的利潤率是該利潤率的幾倍或很多倍。因此，就兆瓦方面而言，我認為總公用事業規模與社區太陽能相比是 80/20。

So 80% community solar --

因此，80% 的社區太陽能--

80% utility and 20% community solar.

80% 為公用事業，20% 為社區太陽能。

Sorry. Okay. Got it, so the inverse, 20% community solar. So what about for the utility-scale solar that's not community solar, do you have any AI or data center-type customers, hyperscaler-type customers that you are currently working with or that you plan to work with in the -- in future DSAs, for example?

對不起。好的。明白了，所以反過來，20% 是社區太陽能。那麼對於非社區太陽能的公用事業規模太陽能，您是否有任何人工智慧或資料中心類型的客戶、超大規模類型的客戶，您目前正在與之合作，或者您計劃在未來的 DSA 中與之合作？

We do have some assets in those hot data center spots, and we are building our internal expertise on data center power supply/data center power management. And on that part, we try to combine our -- where our developer head, which is we talk about we are literally a developer and start from a land developer. And then we are also a developer supplying power to our customers.

我們確實在那些熱點資料中心擁有一些資產，並且我們正在建立資料中心電源/資料中心電源管理的內部專業知識。在這方面，我們嘗試結合我們的開發商主管，也就是我們所說的開發商，我們實際上是從土地開發商開始的。我們也是為客戶提供電力的開發商。

These two together, literally, we are a natural fit to support the data center demand. So in the house, we are building that expertise, especially we are doing the analysis in detail to understand the data center demand and AI demand from the power supply point of view. That is also another point.

從字面上看，這兩者結合在一起，我們自然而然地適合支援資料中心的需求。因此，我們正在內部建立專業知識，特別是我們正在進行詳細分析，以從電源的角度了解資料中心需求和人工智慧需求。這也是另一點。

We have several projects in those hotspots. That is also why some customers, they are looking at them and try to sign the DSA with us.

我們在這些熱點地區有幾個項目。這也是為什麼一些客戶正在關注它們並嘗試與我們簽署 DSA 的原因。

What percentage of the US market is working with DSA frameworks? Do you think it's still very small?

美國市場有多少比例正在使用 DSA 框架？你覺得還很小嗎？

It will not be small anymore. I will say that it quickly can go as big as one-third to 50% of our entire portfolio.

它不再小了。我想說的是，它很快就會占到我們整個投資組合的三分之一到 50%。

I mean, it's big for you, but I mean for the overall market, is it becoming more common for the rest of the market, or is it more -- yes, go ahead.

我的意思是，這對你來說很重要，但對於整個市場來說，它是否對其他市場來說變得越來越普遍，或者更——是的，繼續吧。

I personally don't think so. The reason is, as a listing company, we have to provide numbers to the investors on a quarterly basis. So naturally, it's not really advantageous for us to wait for several years to really finally monetize. That is why in the last 18 months, we strategized the whole operation of the company and put up the DSA strategy across the board. And we are signing many DSAs, as we mentioned in this script, in the Europe, and we will be signing more.

我個人可不這麼認為。原因是，作為一家上市公司，我們必須按季度向投資者提供數據。因此，等待幾年的時間才能真正獲利對我們來說自然沒有好處。這就是為什麼在過去的 18 個月裡，我們對整個公司的營運進行了策略規劃，並全面提出了 DSA 策略。正如我們在本腳本中提到的那樣，我們正在歐洲簽署許多 DSA，我們還將簽署更多。

But as now, we see that the people are actively signing. But when the new market is coming, we see within the next 12 months, the market will be in favor of the renewable energy and battery storage, I think we don't need to sign DSAs anymore.

但就目前而言，我們看到民眾正在積極簽署。但是當新市場到來時，我們預計在未來 12 個月內，市場將青睞可再生能源和電池存儲，我認為我們不再需要簽署 DSA。

Okay.

好的。

That applies to many other developers, too.

這也適用於許多其他開發人員。

Interesting. Maybe one more, and then I'll pass it on. As it relates to power prices, what is the base case? Maybe talk about the top three countries in Europe. What's the base case you have for those end markets?

有趣的。也許再多一個，然後我就會將其傳遞下去。就電價而言，基本情況是什麼？也許可以談談歐洲排名前三的國家。您對這些終端市場的基準預測是如何的？

We hosted a webinar with WoodMac recently and the outlook for retail power prices in Europe in general was maybe a little bit of an increase in '25, but then maybe it's flat or down even for '26 and '27. And so do you expect power prices to remain kind of at current levels? Or do you see upside, or what's your base case as you develop these projects and sell against them?

我們最近與 WoodMac 舉辦了一次網路研討會，預計 2025 年歐洲零售電價總體可能會略有上漲，但 2026 年和 2027 年可能會持平或下降。那麼您是否預期電價將維持在目前水準？或者您是否看到了好處，或者當您開發這些項目並出售它們時，您的基本情況是什麼？

We have IPP operation or the COD solar assets in two countries now in Hungary and Poland, and we also definitely have in China. China is stable, the power price is stable. And Europe, we see the price remains to be very nice compared to before COVID or before the war, okay? But we do have noticed that in some countries like Spain, the price is going down in the last 12 to 18 months and goes down from as high as $0.08 to $0.09 or $0.08 to $0.09 per kilowatt hour to all the way to below $0.03. And even corporate PPAs only give you about $0.035 to $0.04.

我們目前在匈牙利和波蘭兩個國家擁有 IPP 營運或 COD 太陽能資產，在中國也擁有。中國穩定，電價穩定。而歐洲，我們看到與新冠疫情之前或戰爭之前相比，價格仍然非常好，好嗎？但我們確實注意到，在西班牙等一些國家，電價在過去 12 到 18 個月內一直在下降，從每千瓦時 0.08 美元到 0.09 美元或 0.08 美元到 0.09 美元一路下降到 0.03 美元以下。甚至企業 PPA 也只能給你大約 0.035 美元到 0.04 美元。

But in general, European market is a lot nicer than the US market. The beauty of US is we still enjoy the tax equity of the 30% or 40%, and that helps, while US tariff, as you know, you know better maybe than I do, that we are looking at the $0.04, $0.05, even higher -- $0.04, $0.05 or even higher.

但整體來說，歐洲市場比美國市場好很多。美國的優點在我們仍然享有 30% 或 40% 的稅收公平，這很有幫助，而美國關稅，正如你所知，你可能比我更清楚，我們正在尋找 0.04 美元、0.05 美元甚至更高的——0.04 美元、0.05 美元甚至更高。

Phil, I just want to add, our Branston project in UK is under strong PPA still, is much higher than the current merchant price in UK, so that's an advantage we have with this strong PPA with our Branston project.

菲爾，我只想補充一點，我們在英國的布蘭斯頓項目仍然處於強勁的 PPA 之下，遠高於英國目前的商業價格，所以這是我們在布蘭斯頓項目中通過這種強勁的 PPA 所具有的優勢。

Okay, thank you for taking all my questions.

好的，感謝您回答我的所有問題。

Thank you, Phil.

謝謝你，菲爾。

Sameer Joshi, H.C. Wainwright.

Sameer Joshi，H.C.溫賴特。

Great, thanks. Hey, Yumin, thanks for taking my questions. So the range for -- range of top-line expectation for this year, the DSA seems to be like a wide range of $10 million from $35 million to $45 million. What are the -- like what will it make -- how will it be at the lower end versus the higher end? Are there projects -- big projects that you expect to materialize, and timing is an issue, or are there some other things at play?

太好了，謝謝。嘿，Yumin，謝謝你回答我的問題。因此，今年的營收預期範圍，DSA 似乎在 1000 萬美元到 3500 萬美元之間，甚至 4500 萬美元之間。它會帶來什麼改變？低端產品和高端產品有何不同？您是否希望實現一些項目——大型項目，而時間是一個問題，或者還有其他因素在起作用？

I think the range is because accounting, we have to really -- some of the projects, like we said, is DSA/SPA. So we have to treat this differently. It's SPA and DSA. So that's why there's big range. I believe that's the major reason.

我認為這個範圍是因為會計，我們必須真正——一些項目，就像我們說的，是 DSA/SPA。所以我們必須以不同的方式來處理這個問題。它是 SPA 和 DSA。這就是為什麼範圍這麼大。我認為這是主要原因。

Okay, understood. And then the pushout of the projects from this year into -- fourth quarter into next year -- or rather fourth quarter into the first half, do we know what the size of those projects was? Like if those had materialized, what would the revenue have been for the fourth quarter?

好的，明白了。然後，從今年到明年第四季的專案推出——或者更確切地說是從第四季度到上半年的專案推出，我們知道這些專案的規模是多少嗎？如果這些都實現了，那麼第四季的營收會是多少？

I think it's around $10 million.

我認為大約是 1000 萬美元。

Okay. Pretty big chunk. Okay. And then also like the outlook for gross margins. I think you mentioned the gross -- overall gross margins, the IPP gross margins, but I don't think guidance for DSA gross margins was provided. Is there a reason for that and does it depend on project to project? Or how should we look at that DSA segment gross margin?

好的。相當大的一塊。好的。然後也喜歡毛利率的前景。我認為您提到了毛利率——整體毛利率、IPP 毛利率，但我認為沒有提供 DSA 毛利率的指導。這是有什麼原因嗎？是否取決於不同的項目？或者我們應該如何看待 DSA 部門的毛利率？

In general, as I also mentioned, you may understand our DSA milestone payment structure. In normal case that the milestone -- early milestone have lower margin, and later milestone will be having a higher margin. For example, we normally try to book all our cost in the first two milestones. So the margin in the earlier payment or early years of the DSA will be lower. And that put our 2025 margin for the DSA for the new ones, newer ones lower. Do you see my point?

總的來說，正如我所提到的，您可能了解我們的 DSA 里程碑付款結構。在正常情況下，里程碑－早期里程碑的利潤較低，而後期里程碑的利潤較高。例如，我們通常會嘗試在前兩個里程碑中登記所有成本。因此，早期付款或 DSA 早期的利潤率會較低。這使得我們 2025 年新產品的 DSA 利潤率更低。你明白我的意思嗎？

Got it. Yeah, I understand.

知道了。是的，我明白。

We mentioned we have $84 million remaining DSA contracted revenue. We already recognized $19 million, and that $19 million we recognized in 2024 has a lot lower margin compared to the 35% to 45% we are building in 2025. I will say that at least half of the 35% to 45% margin expected in 2025 will generate higher margin and other half as they are newer or they are Milestone 1 payment, that would be a lower margin.

我們提到我們還有 8400 萬美元的剩餘 DSA 合約收入。我們已經確認了 1900 萬美元，而我們在 2024 年確認的 1900 萬美元的利潤率與我們在 2025 年建設的 35% 至 45% 相比要低得多。我想說的是，預計 2025 年利潤率為 35% 至 45%，其中至少有一半將產生更高的利潤，而另一半由於它們較新或屬於里程碑 1 付款，所以利潤率會較低。

Yeah. No, that was a good explanation. Thank you. And one last one. I know Phil also asked about this, the $100 million that you are additionally negotiating, is there possibility of upside from those projects? Like if you sign those in the next few months, is there any possibility that your revenues for 2025 will be able to recognize some of those revenues?

是的。不，這是一個很好的解釋。謝謝。最後一個。我知道菲爾也問過這個問題，您正在額外談判的 1 億美元，這些項目有可能帶來好處嗎？例如，如果您在接下來的幾個月內簽署這些協議，您的 2025 年收入是否有可能確認其中的部分收入？

We learned the lessons in the last couple of years. We try to understand the market and also precisely make the predictions or guidance for our numbers. The DSA on the revenue and the pricing of the DSA, we are going to close, let's say, within Q2 this year, next three months, the price there, the revenue expectation is there for the Milestone 1 payment, and those are covers about five to six DSAs to be signed.

我們在過去幾年中吸取了教訓。我們試圖了解市場，並對我們的數字做出準確的預測或指導。關於收入和 DSA 定價的 DSA，我們打算在今年第二季度，也就是接下來的三個月內完成，那裡的價格，里程碑 1 付款的收入預期，這些涵蓋了大約五到六個需要簽署的 DSA。

But the potential upside may come in the DSAs we are negotiating to be closed in Q3 or late Q2 or June, July, August timeframe, okay? We do see possibility that that provides us upside as more DSAs will be coming as the $100 million expectation, if we successfully signed all $100 million, the Milestone 1 payment will absolutely help the 2025 revenue.

但潛在的好處可能來自於我們正在談判的 DSA，這些 DSA 將在第三季或第二季末或六月、七月、八月期間完成，好嗎？我們確實看到了這給我們帶來好處的可能性，因為更多的 DSA 將按照 1 億美元的預期到來，如果我們成功簽署全部 1 億美元，那麼里程碑 1 的付款絕對將有助於 2025 年的收入。

In the guidance, we only consider part of it, which literally speaking, the ones to be closed within the next two months.

在指導中，我們只考慮了其中的一部分，從字面上講，就是未來兩個月內要關閉的部分。

Got it, understood. And then just -- actually, this probably will be the last one. Is there a mix of BESS versus only PV that is -- that you're looking at maybe different -- in different geographies, or how do you see the project mix in your pipeline?

明白了，了解了。然後——實際上，這可能是最後一次了。是否存在 BESS 與僅 PV 的混合情況 — — 您在不同的地區可能有不同的看法，或者您如何看待您管道中的項目組合？

It's a whole mixture. As you see that we presented earlier that we started our storage business our initiative over 2.5 years ago. And the point is almost every single country, we have storage assets. And PV, either big or small, normally big ones in the US and in Europe, we try to sign DSAs. And smaller ones, we try to do it all the way to NTP and sell that with totally risk-free format and make higher margin.

這是一個完整的混合物。正如您所看到的，我們之前介紹過，我們在兩年半前就開始了我們的儲存業務。重點是幾乎每個國家都有儲存資產。無論光伏項目規模大小，通常美國和歐洲的大型光伏項目，我們都會嘗試簽署 DSA。對於規模較小的產品，我們嘗試將其完全推廣到 NTP，並以完全無風險的形式銷售，從而獲得更高的利潤。

Yeah. I think that you will definitely see more storage from US because we launched the first storage last year, and you will see more in US. But definitely, again, we have a strong pipeline both from solar and storage. And then you will see more from different country from Europe. We talk about Italy a lot, but you see we launched Germany, France. So you will definitely see more from different countries. And also, again, it's a good mix of solar and storage.

是的。我認為您肯定會看到更多來自美國的存儲，因為我們去年推出了第一個存儲，而且您會在美國看到更多。但可以肯定的是，我們在太陽能和儲能領域都擁有強大的管道。然後你會看到更多來自歐洲不同國家的東西。我們常常談論義大利，但你看，我們也推出了德國、法國。所以你肯定會看到更多來自不同國家的事物。而且，這又是太陽能和儲能的好組合。

Got it. Thanks a lot for taking my questions.

知道了。非常感謝您回答我的問題。

Thank you.

謝謝。

Thank you for all the questions. This concludes the Q&A session. I will now hand back to our CEO, Yumin.

謝謝大家的提問。問答環節到此結束。現在我將把麥克風交還給我們的執行長 Yumin。

Thank you, operator. The global transition to renewable energy continues to accelerate, creating strong tailwinds for solar and energy storage. With disciplined execution, a solid contracted revenue base, and a growing presence in high-margin segments, we are well-positioned for sustained growth.

謝謝您，接線生。全球向再生能源的轉變持續加速，為太陽能和能源儲存創造了強勁的順風。憑藉嚴格的執行力、穩固的合約收入基礎以及高利潤領域不斷增長的影響力，我們為持續成長做好了準備。

As we enter 2025, we remain focused on executing our strategy across DSA, IPP, and energy storage, reinforcing our leadership in the sector. Backed by a strong financial foundation and a commitment to innovation, we are confident in our ability to seize new opportunities, drive long-term value creation, and deliver meaningful returns for our shareholders.

進入 2025 年，我們將繼續專注於執行 DSA、IPP 和儲能領域的策略，以鞏固我們在該領域的領導地位。憑藉強大的財務基礎和對創新的承諾，我們有信心抓住新機遇，推動長期價值創造，並為股東帶來豐厚的回報。

Thank you, operator.

謝謝您，接線生。

Thank you. This concludes today's conference call. Thank you for participating. You may now disconnect.

謝謝。今天的電話會議到此結束。感謝您的參與。您現在可以斷開連線。