Redwood Trust Inc (RWT) 2024 Q4 法說會逐字稿

Good afternoon, and welcome to the Redwood Trust fourth-quarter 2024 financial results conference call. Today's conference is being recorded. I will now turn the call over to Kaitlyn Mauritz, Redwood's Head of Investor Relations. Please go ahead, ma'am.

下午好，歡迎參加 Redwood Trust 2024 年第四季財務業績電話會議。今天的會議正在錄製。現在我將電話轉給 Redwood 投資者關係主管 Kaitlyn Mauritz。請繼續，女士。

Thank you, operator. Hello, everyone, and thank you for joining us today for Redwood's fourth quarter 2024 earnings conference call. With me on today's call are Chris Abate, Chief Executive Officer; Dash Robinson, President; and Brooke Carillo, Chief Financial Officer.

謝謝您，接線生。大家好，感謝您今天參加 Redwood 2024 年第四季財報電話會議。今天與我一起參加電話會議的還有執行長 Chris Abate；達什羅賓遜（Dash Robinson），總裁；以及財務長 Brooke Carillo。

Before we begin, I want to remind you that certain statements made during management's presentation today with respect to future financial and business performance may constitute forward-looking statements. Forward-looking statements are based on current expectations, forecasts and assumptions and include risks and uncertainties that could cause actual results to differ materially.

在我們開始之前，我想提醒您，今天管理層在演示中就未來財務和業務表現所做的某些陳述可能構成前瞻性陳述。前瞻性陳述基於目前的預期、預測和假設，包含可能導致實際結果大不相同的風險和不確定性。

We encourage you to read the company's annual report on Form 10-K, which provides a description of some of the factors that could have a material impact on the company's performance and cause actual results to differ from those that may be expressed in forward-looking statements. On this call, we may also refer to both GAAP and non-GAAP financial measures. The non-GAAP financial measures provided should not be utilized in isolation or considered as a substitute for measures of financial performance prepared in accordance with GAAP. A reconciliation between GAAP and non-GAAP financial measures are provided in our fourth quarter review, which is available on our website, redwoodtrust.com. Also note that the contents of today's conference call contain time-sensitive information that are only accurate as of today.

我們鼓勵您閱讀公司的 10-K 表年度報告，其中描述了一些可能對公司業績產生重大影響並導致實際結果與前瞻性陳述中表達的結果不同的因素。在本次電話會議中，我們也可能參考 GAAP 和非 GAAP 財務指標。所提供的非 GAAP 財務指標不應單獨使用，或被視為依照 GAAP 編製的財務績效指標的替代品。我們在第四季度回顧中提供了 GAAP 和非 GAAP 財務指標之間的對賬，您可以在我們的網站 redwoodtrust.com 上查閱。另請注意，今天的電話會議內容包含時間敏感訊息，這些訊息僅在今天準確。

We do not intend and undertake no obligation to update this information to reflect subsequent events or circumstances. Finally, today's call is being recorded and will be available on our website later today. And with that, I'll turn the call over to Chris.

我們不打算也不承擔更新此資訊以反映後續事件或情況的義務。最後，今天的通話正在錄音，並將於今天晚些時候在我們的網站上發布。說完這些，我會把電話轉給克里斯。

Thank you, Kate. Welcome, everyone, to Redwood's earnings call. We look forward to reviewing our fourth quarter performance today as well as sharing some perspectives on the direction of both Redwood and our industry in 2025. On the back of the November elections, the last few months have borne witness to an unprecedented dynamic in interest rates, the start of a Fed easing cycle that has coincided with a nearly 100 basis point rise in the 10-year treasury yield. Inflationary rhetoric from the new administration and the prospect of significant government borrowing has acted as a catalyst to keep mortgage rates elevated well into the new year.

謝謝你，凱特。歡迎大家參加 Redwood 的財報電話會議。我們期待今天回顧我們的第四季度業績，並分享一些關於 2025 年 Redwood 和我們行業發展方向的觀點。在十一月大選的影響下，過去幾個月的利率出現了前所未有的變化，聯準會開始寬鬆週期，同時 10 年期公債殖利率上升了近 100 個基點。新政府的通膨言論和政府大量借貸的前景，成為導致抵押貸款利率在新的一年持續居高不下的催化劑。

Brooke will spend more time on our financial performance, but it's worth highlighting that our full year results demonstrated significant progress, returning our operating businesses to strong profitability and delivering a 5.7% total economic return amidst 3 separate 100 basis point swings in treasury yields. We also significantly improved our operating efficiency and raised our common stock dividend in each of the final 2 quarters of the year. As we approach 2025, we like to remind our shareholders of our long-held view that most challenges and opportunities in our markets get their start in Washington, D.C. With such a significant shift in governing philosophy from the new administration, much is likely to change in the arenas of housing policy and regulation. The vast majority of this, we expect to benefit Redwood.

布魯克將花更多時間關注我們的財務業績，但值得強調的是，我們的全年業績顯示出顯著的進步，我們的營運業務恢復了強勁的盈利能力，並在國債收益率三次分別出現 100 個基點的波動的情況下實現了 5.7% 的總經濟回報。我們也大幅提高了營運效率，並在當年最後兩個季度提高了普通股股利。隨著 2025 年的臨近，我們想提醒股東，我們長期以來的觀點是，我們市場中的大多數挑戰和機會都始於華盛頓特區。隨著新政府執政理念發生如此重大的轉變，住房政策和監管領域可能會發生很大變化。我們預計其中絕大部分將使 Redwood 受益。

Though mortgage rates remain elevated and overall housing activity will likely remain flat in 2025, we see several strategic opportunities that could drive sizable market share gains for our platform, supporting greater earnings power. Our top strategic priority remains capitalizing on the downsizing of mortgage activity within the banking sector, something that has significantly accelerated in recent weeks. Three large regional banks have already spurred nearly $10 billion of seasoned mortgage pools to change hands, a trend that we expect will continue throughout the year. The logic supporting our view is intuitive. With continued higher for longer rates dampening prospects for near-term origination growth at banks, the risk/reward dynamic of funding fixed rate mortgages with deposits over an extended period has more banks revisiting their mortgage strategies.

儘管抵押貸款利率仍然處於高位，且 2025 年整體住房活動可能保持平穩，但我們看到了幾個戰略機遇，這些機會可能會為我們的平台帶來可觀的市場份額增長，從而支持更大的盈利能力。我們的首要策略重點仍然是利用銀行業抵押貸款活動的縮減，近幾週這一進程顯著加快。三家大型地區性銀行已經促成近 100 億美元的成熟抵押貸款池易手，我們預計這一趨勢將持續全年。支持我們觀點的邏輯是直觀的。由於利率長期持續走高抑制了銀行近期貸款發放成長的前景，使用長期存款為固定利率抵押貸款提供資金的風險/回報動態使得更多銀行重新審視其抵押貸款策略。

As such, we expect the build-out of our bank seller network to begin paying increased dividends. Of note, banks represented 40% of our lock volume in 2024, doubling from 2023 and up from just 8% prior to the regional bank crisis. Divestment from mortgage lending also reflects the prospect for many banks to redeploy capital, notably through M&A. After largely being stymy the past 4 years, increased activity in M&A could shake free large mortgage pools once they are mark-to-market under M&A accounting rules. When paired with expected consolidation amongst nonbank originators, this is a meaningful opportunity for Redwood with a recognized track record for closing acquisitions in pursuit of our strategic objectives.

因此，我們預計銀行賣家網路的建設將開始帶來更多的紅利。值得注意的是，銀行占我們 2024 年鎖定量的 40%，比 2023 年增加了一倍，而區域銀行危機前這一比例僅為 8%。撤資抵押貸款也反映出許多銀行重新部署資本的前景，特別是透過併購。在過去四年基本上停滯不前之後，併購活動的增加可能會撼動大型抵押貸款池，一旦它們按照併購會計規則進行市價調整。與非銀行機構之間的預期整合相結合，這對 Redwood 來說是一個有意義的機會，因為 Redwood 在實現策略目標方面擁有公認的收購記錄。

As persistently higher mortgage rates and a constrained housing supply impede the path to homeownership for many American households, demand from our top institutional loan sellers for nontraditional loan products has grown significantly. Our Aspire platform, which we launched in early 2024 to provide innovative solutions for homeowners to unlock their home equity was recently broadened to include expanded loan products that serve prospective homebuyers requiring alternative methods to demonstrate the ability to repay underwriting standard. For those less familiar with this segment of the market, this focus represents a sizable addressable market for both our existing seller network as well as new originators to Redwood. In the last few weeks, Aspire has been acquiring such loans, leveraging our track record as a reliable source of liquidity through best-in-class operations and common sense underwriting practices. The market for these alternative loan products continues to grow, but remains ripe for disruption through artificial intelligence and other emerging technologies we're focused on to reduce cycle times and expand the funnel of qualified consumers.

由於持續走高的抵押貸款利率和緊張的住房供應阻礙了許多美國家庭擁有住房，我們的頂級機構貸款銷售商對非傳統貸款產品的需求大幅增長。我們的 Aspire 平台於 2024 年初推出，旨在為房主提供創新解決方案，以釋放他們的房屋淨值，最近該平台擴展至包括擴展的貸款產品，為需要替代方法來證明有能力償還承保標準的潛在購房者提供服務。對於那些不太熟悉這個細分市場的人來說，這一重點代表著我們現有賣家網路以及 Redwood 新發起人的一個相當大的潛在市場。在過去的幾周里，Aspire 一直在收購此類貸款，利用我們作為可靠流動資金來源的業績記錄，透過一流的營運和常識性的承保實踐。這些替代貸款產品的市場持續成長，但仍存在透過人工智慧和其他新興技術進行顛覆的可能性，我們專注於縮短週期時間並擴大合格消費者的管道。

We are also in the early stages of a new administration that has emphasized the need for policy reform to address housing affordability and accessibility. GSE reform is once again a topic of discussion. And while privatization would take extraordinary resolve from the federal government over an extended period of time, addressing lower-hanging fruit such as GSE mission creep and overall government overreach in housing is a viable possibility in the near term. To put GSE expansion into perspective, loan limits for GSE insured loans have increased by 60% over the past 5 years compared with just a 10% rise in average household income. A much more rational approach would ensure that loan limits align with actual purchasing power and redirect more of the GSE's efforts to addressing core impediments to homeownership, particularly for low to moderate income homebuyers.

我們也正處於新政府執政的初期，新政府強調需要進行政策改革來解決住房負擔能力和住房可及性問題。政府支持企業改革再次成為討論議題。儘管私有化需要聯邦政府在較長時期內拿出非凡的決心，但解決諸如政府支持企業任務蔓延和政府在住房方面總體權力過大等較容易實現的難題在短期內也是可行的。從政府支持企業擴張的角度來看，在過去 5 年裡，政府支持企業保險貸款的貸款限額增加了 60%，而平均家庭收入僅增加了 10%。更合理的方法是確保貸款限額與實際購買力相符，並將政府資助企業的更多努力轉向解決購屋的核心障礙，特別是針對中低收入購屋者。

Such progress and realignment would directly benefit our Sequoia platform as we are best positioned to provide extremely competitive mortgage rates for nonconforming borrowers. As many in the industry know, our nonconforming mortgage rates have been at or lower than comparable conforming rates in many instances. We are optimistic that new housing regulators may reverse what has become known as an era of enablement for the GSEs to unnecessarily crowd out the private sector. And we look forward to playing a key role in derisking the American taxpayer as the administration works towards greater privatization of housing finance. It's hard to overstate the scale of opportunity these trends can bring to bear for Redwood, making our recent strategic progress all the more critical.

這樣的進步和重新調整將直接有利於我們的紅杉平台，因為我們有能力為不合規的借款人提供極具競爭力的抵押貸款利率。許多業內人士都知道，在許多情況下，我們的不合格抵押貸款利率等於或低於同類合格抵押貸款利率。我們樂觀地認為，新的住房監管機構可能會扭轉政府支持企業不必要地排擠私部門的時代。我們期待在政府致力於進一步實現住房融資私有化的過程中，在降低美國納稅人的風險方面發揮關鍵作用。這些趨勢為 Redwood 帶來的機會規模無論怎樣強調都不為過，這使得我們最近的策略進展變得更加重要。

Beyond our securitization and whole loan distribution competencies, our strategic joint ventures with large private credit institutions have set us further apart from our competitors. After finalizing our second joint venture in the middle of last year, we have already surpassed the $1 billion threshold of cumulative fundings into our JVs on top of the billions of dollars of loans that we have securitized or sold to third-party investors in 2024. Our distribution capabilities have helped drive the rescaling of our operating businesses, positioning us to set ambitious new benchmarks for volume and distribution across our Sequoia and CoreVest platforms in 2025. For our shareholders, the key takeaway is our commitment to profitable growth, both within our core business and through new initiatives aimed at expanding access to credit for more American households. Looking forward, we remain focused on identifying and seizing transformational opportunities, whether via emerging technologies like AI or in established lending classes such as homebuilder finance, where we believe compelling entry points now exist.

除了我們的證券化和整體貸款分銷能力之外，我們與大型私人信貸機構建立的策略合資企業使我們在競爭對手中脫穎而出。在去年年中完成第二家合資企業的組成後，我們已經對合資企業的累計融資額超過了 10 億美元，此外我們還在 2024 年透過證券化或出售給第三方投資者的數十億美元貸款也已到位。我們的分銷能力有助於推動我們營運業務的重新擴展，使我們能夠在 2025 年為 Sequoia 和 CoreVest 平台的銷售和分銷設定雄心勃勃的新基準。對於我們的股東來說，最重要的收穫是我們對獲利成長的承諾，這不僅包括我們的核心業務，還包括旨在為更多美國家庭擴大信貸管道的新舉措。展望未來，我們將繼續專注於發現和抓住轉型機遇，無論是透過人工智慧等新興技術，還是透過房屋建築商融資等成熟的貸款類別，我們都認為目前存在著引人注目的切入點。

With the recent addition of a new Chief Technology Officer, we are well positioned to scale these initiatives in the year ahead. Before I hand the call over to Dash, as a California-headquartered company, we want to take a moment to express our deepest sympathy to all those who lost their homes in the devastating fires that swept through the Los Angeles area in January. While we anticipate minimal financial impact to our business due to our limited exposure to the directly affected regions, we are reminded of the significant losses experienced by homeowners and tenants across the state, including some with ties to our workforce and a small number who have received financing through our platforms. Our servicing team is actively engaging impacted homeowners, and we are profoundly grateful to the first responders, firefighters and countless volunteers who have selflessly assisted all those impacted. Their efforts are a testament to the power of community and the vital role we all play in rebuilding, restoring and protecting the dream of homeownership.

隨著新任技術長的加入，我們已準備好在來年擴大這些措施的規模。在我將電話轉給 Dash 之前，作為一家總部位於加利福尼亞州的公司，我們想花點時間向所有在一月份席捲洛杉磯地區的毀滅性大火中失去家園的人們表示最深切的同情。雖然由於我們在直接受影響地區的業務有限，我們預計對我們的業務造成的財務影響很小，但我們想起了全州房主和租戶遭受的重大損失，其中包括一些與我們的員工有聯繫的人和少數透過我們的平台獲得融資的人。我們的服務團隊正在積極與受影響的房主接觸，我們深深感謝那些無私幫助所有受影響者的急救人員、消防員和無數志工。他們的努力證明了社區的力量以及我們在重建、恢復和保護住房夢想中所發揮的重要作用。

With that, I'll hand the call over to Dash.

說完這些，我將把電話交給 Dash。

Thank you, Chris. I'll cover our operating results before handing the call over to Brooke to conclude with our financial highlights. Fourth quarter closed out a year of meaningful strategic progress for our recently rebranded Sequoia platform. While mortgage rates rose 50 basis points during what's typically a period of seasonal slowdown, lock volume increased 4% from the third quarter to $2.3 billion. This growth was on the strength of our highest flow lock volume since early 2022 and increased activity with independent mortgage bankers or IMBs, which rose 23% quarter-over-quarter.

謝謝你，克里斯。我將先介紹我們的經營業績，然後把電話交給布魯克，讓他總結一下我們的財務亮點。第四季為我們最近更名後的 Sequoia 平台取得了有意義的戰略進展的一年畫上了句號。雖然在典型的季節性放緩時期抵押貸款利率上漲了 50 個基點，但鎖定量卻比第三季增加了 4%，達到 23 億美元。這一增長得益於我們自 2022 年初以來的最高流量鎖定量以及與獨立抵押貸款銀行家或 IMB 的活動增加，環比增長了 23%。

Notably, with mortgage rates still hovering at around 7%, this momentum has continued into the new year. January locks totaled just over $1 billion, 35% ahead of Q4's pace and almost 2.5x January 2024 levels. The quarter's results rounded out the strongest year for the platform since 2021, $9 billion of total lock volume with close to 40% sourced in bulk form and activity with 175 total sellers. Notably, no flow partner represented more than 7% of full year production volume. We expect this granularity to drive further volume growth in 2025 as the dynamics Chris described may draw more sellers to seek to transact in more significant size, particularly amongst the 120 depositories now in our network.

值得注意的是，由於抵押貸款利率仍然徘徊在7%左右，這一勢頭一直延續到新的一年。1 月鎖定總額略高於 10 億美元，比第四季成長 35%，幾乎是 2024 年 1 月水準的 2.5 倍。本季的業績是該平台自 2021 年以來表現最強勁的一年，總鎖倉量達 90 億美元，其中近 40% 以大宗形式採購，共有 175 名賣家參與活動。值得注意的是，沒有一家流量合作夥伴的產量佔全年產量的 7% 以上。我們預計，這種粒度將在 2025 年推動交易量進一步增長，因為 Chris 所描述的動態可能會吸引更多賣家尋求更大規模的交易，尤其是目前我們網路中的 120 個存管機構。

In all during the fourth quarter, we distributed $2.5 billion of Sequoia loans, more than half in whole loan form to 10 different counterparties and the remainder through 3 securitizations. This was our most active quarter for loan sale activity since the first quarter of 2022 and included several large sales to banks, a good reminder that while on balance, the depository footprint in mortgage lending continues to ebb, broader loan growth needs are compelling certain banks to add to their mortgage portfolios, leveraging their relationship with Redwood to do so. We expect this distribution channel to remain a tailwind in 2025 as many of these partners have indicated a desire to transact more programmatically. Our securitization activity on the quarter was also a highlight as we priced 1 deal each across 30-year fixed agency-eligible investor and adjustable rate mortgages or ARMs, important versatility in an evolving market. The ARM securitization was backed by the seasoned bank portfolio we acquired in the third quarter of 2024 and was completed less than 2 months from settlement, highlighting our speed to execution on pools originally funded for a bank balance sheet and not capital markets distribution.

整個第四季度，我們共發放了 25 億美元的紅杉貸款，其中一半以上以全額貸款的形式發放給 10 個不同的交易對手，其餘則透過 3 次證券化發放。這是自 2022 年第一季以來我們貸款銷售活動最活躍的一個季度，其中包括幾筆向銀行的大額銷售，這很好地提醒我們，雖然總體而言，抵押貸款中的存款足跡繼續減少，但更廣泛的貸款增長需求迫使某些銀行增加其抵押貸款組合，並利用與 Redwood 的關係來實現這一目標。我們預計該分銷管道在 2025 年仍將保持順風態勢，因為許多合作夥伴都表示希望以更多程序化的方式進行交易。我們本季的證券化活動也是一大亮點，因為我們為 30 年期固定機構合格投資者和可調整利率抵押貸款或 ARM 分別定價了 1 筆交易，這在不斷變化的市場中具有重要的多功能性。ARM 證券化由我們在 2024 年第三季收購的經驗豐富的銀行投資組合支持，並在結算後不到 2 個月就完成了，突顯了我們在最初為銀行資產負債表而不是資本市場分配提供資金的資金池上的執行速度。

In total, 2024 was our most active securitization issuance year in over a decade, evidence of the depth of demand from investors for our established top-tier shelf that issues at a reliable cadence. Year-to-date, we have already distributed $1.4 billion in loans, largely through 2 securitizations that achieved strong execution and continued whole loan sales. Our distribution strength is just one of the tailwinds we believe makes our estimated 5% market share in 2024, a stepping stone for further growth. Our ground game with banks is unparalleled and positions us to capture a meaningful portion of the potential wave of supply that Chris discussed. Another emerging competitive advantage that we've highlighted recently is the expansion of our Aspire platform to include a full suite of expanded loan products that we have begun to acquire from our seller base.

總體而言，2024 年是我們十多年來最活躍的證券化發行年，證明了投資者對我們以可靠節奏發行的成熟頂級債券的需求強勁。年初至今，我們已經發放了 14 億美元的貸款，主要是透過兩次證券化發放的，這些證券化實現了強勁的執行並持續進行了整體貸款銷售。我們認為，我們的分銷優勢只是推動我們在 2024 年實現預計 5% 的市場份額的有利因素之一，這是進一步增長的墊腳石。我們與銀行的實地合作是無與倫比的，使我們能夠抓住克里斯所討論的潛在供應浪潮中的重要部分。我們最近強調的另一個新興競爭優勢是我們的 Aspire 平台的擴展，其中包括我們從賣家群體開始獲得的全套擴展貸款產品。

As recent commentary from the Fed reinforces a patient stance on further rate cuts, we expect more sellers to address higher for longer market conditions by expanding their product offerings. We estimate our current seller base originated over 30% of the $80-plus billion of these types of loans originated industry-wide in 2024, a critical running start for this product launch and a key competitive advantage for Redwood's growth into the space. CoreVest, our residential investor platform, also made key advancements in 2024, highlighted by volume growth, efficiency enhancements and broadening of distribution channels. Fourth quarter fundings totaled $501 million, up nearly 10% from the third quarter and our highest volume since the third quarter of 2022. Despite the backup in rates, origination activity remained balanced between term and bridge loans.

由於聯準會最近的言論強化了對進一步降息的耐心立場，我們預計會有更多賣家透過擴大其產品供應來應對更長期的市場狀況。我們估計，到 2024 年，我們目前的賣家群體將佔全行業此類貸款 800 多億美元的 30% 以上，這是該產品發布的關鍵開端，也是 Redwood 在該領域發展的關鍵競爭優勢。我們的住宅投資者平台 CoreVest 也在 2024 年取得了重大進步，突顯交易量成長、效率提升和分銷管道拓寬。第四季融資總額為 5.01 億美元，較第三季成長近 10%，創下 2022 年第三季以來的最高水準。儘管利率回升，但定期貸款和過橋貸款之間的發放活動仍然保持平衡。

Term loan production was up over 40% from the third quarter and comprised 45% of total quarterly production, in line with our historical targeted balance between bridge and term originations. Single asset bridge or SAB volumes rose slightly to another record quarter of originations. We continue to invest in growing originations in both SAB and DSCR loans, our smaller balance products, as they remain well bid by investors and represent large addressable markets and an attractive opportunity for wallet share growth. January represented more forward momentum for the business as fundings eclipsed December volume and were close to double those of January 2024. Strategic progress in this area will be keyed by distribution, which remains a strength of the platform.

定期貸款產量較第三季增加了 40% 以上，佔季總產量的 45%，與我們歷史上過橋貸款和定期貸款之間的平衡目標一致。單一資產過橋貸款或 SAB 貸款數量小幅上升，再創季度貸款發放量新高。我們將繼續投資於 SAB 和 DSCR 貸款（我們的小額餘額產品）的不斷增長的貸款發放量，因為它們仍然受到投資者的青睞，並且代表著巨大的潛在市場和錢包份額增長的誘人機會。1 月份的融資金額超過了 12 月份的融資額，接近 2024 年 1 月份的兩倍，這對業務來說意味著更大的前進動力。該領域的策略進步將以分銷為關鍵，這仍然是該平台的優勢。

CoreVest distributed $507 million of loans during the quarter, largely to our joint venture with CPP Investments and into whole loan sales. We placed $375 million of loans into JVs during the fourth quarter and through January have contributed over $1 billion to these vehicles life to date, an important milestone as we pursue similar structures to drive growth across the enterprise. In November, we completed our first securitization with loans from the CPP joint venture, a $300 million transaction backed by bridge loans and structured with a 24-month replenishment period. Overall, repayment velocity in the CoreVest portfolio was up 20% from the third quarter with over $400 million of paydowns, including $320 million in the bridge portfolio. 90-plus day delinquencies in the bridge portfolio improved by 10 basis points as we continue to successfully execute on the cohort of resolutions we anticipate finalizing over the near term.

CoreVest 在本季發放了 5.07 億美元的貸款，主要是發放給我們與 CPP Investments 的合資企業以及整體貸款銷售。我們在第四季度向合資企業提供了 3.75 億美元的貸款，截至 1 月份，我們已經為這些企業注入了超過 10 億美元的資金，這是一個重要的里程碑，因為我們正在推行類似的結構來推動整個企業的成長。11 月份，我們利用 CPP 合資企業的貸款完成了首次證券化，這是一項價值 3 億美元的交易，以過橋貸款為支持，並以 24 個月的補充期為結構。整體而言，CoreVest 投資組合的還款速度較第三季上漲了 20%，還款金額超過 4 億美元，其中包括過橋投資組合中的 3.2 億美元。隨著我們繼續成功執行預計在短期內完成的一系列解決方案，過橋投資組合中 90 天以上的拖欠率改善了 10 個基點。

Delinquencies in the term loan portfolio moved marginally higher, in part driven by smaller pool size and net of 80 basis points of resolutions with minimal realized loss severity. As Brooke will further describe, delinquencies and associated fair value changes remain concentrated in multifamily bridge loans that we largely stopped originating in mid-2022. Delinquencies in the single-family cohort of our bridge portfolio remained below 4%. Across our broader investment portfolio, higher benchmarks drove modest reductions in fair value, but credit performance remained strong, most notably across our jumbo and reperforming loan portfolios. These positions collectively represent nearly 70% of our portfolio's net discount to par and are backed by loans whose borrowers continue to protect the substantial embedded equity in their homes.

定期貸款組合的違約率略有上升，部分原因是貸款池規模較小，且扣除 80 個基點的解決措施後實際損失程度較小。正如布魯克進一步描述的那樣，拖欠和相關的公允價值變動仍然集中在我們在 2022 年中期基本上停止發放的多戶過橋貸款中。我們過橋投資組合中單戶住宅群的拖欠率仍低於 4%。在我們更廣泛的投資組合中，更高的基準導致公允價值小幅下降，但信貸表現依然強勁，最明顯的是我們的巨額和重新表現的貸款組合。這些頭寸合計占我們投資組合淨折扣的近 70%，並由貸款支持，這些貸款的借款人繼續保護其房屋中大量嵌入的權益。

As our secured financing against these securities continues to delever, there are windows to unlock this net discount and further optimize overall capital allocation, supporting growth in our operating platforms and funding the associated long-term investment opportunities. And with that, I will hand the call over to Brooke.

隨著我們針對這些證券的擔保融資繼續去槓桿，我們有機會解鎖此淨折扣並進一步優化整體資本配置，支持我們營運平台的成長並為相關的長期投資機會提供資金。說完這些，我會把電話交給布魯克。

Thank you, Dash. To build on our earlier discussion around branding, I want to highlight an important update to our segment naming that you will see reflected in our earnings materials. We've aligned our business units with their branded identities to better reflect their market positioning and strategic focus. Our Residential Consumer segment is now Sequoia, Residential Investor is now CoreVest and our investment portfolio is now Redwood Investments. Turning on to our financial results.

謝謝你，Dash。為了在我們之前關於品牌的討論的基礎上，我想強調我們分部命名的一個重要更新，您將在我們的收益材料中看到這一更新。我們已將我們的業務部門與他們的品牌標識進行調整，以更好地反映他們的市場定位和策略重點。我們的住宅消費部門現在是紅杉資本，住宅投資者部門現在是 CoreVest，我們的投資組合現在是 Redwood Investments。讓我們來看看我們的財務結果。

We reported GAAP earnings of negative $8.4 million for the fourth quarter or negative $0.07 per share compared to positive $13.1 million or $0.09 per share in the third quarter, reflecting fourth quarter GAAP ROE of negative 3%. Specific to the fourth quarter, fair value changes primarily reflected the mark-to-market on our larger balance multifamily bridge loans and the impact from higher benchmark interest rates on our reperforming loan securities. For the full year 2024, we reported GAAP earnings of positive $47 million or $0.32 per share, equating to a GAAP return on equity of 4.1%. With the decline in GAAP earnings, Q4 book value per share decreased to $8.46. For the full year 2024, we delivered a total economic return of 5.7%, inclusive of our common dividend, which we increased twice in 2024.

我們報告第四季的 GAAP 收益為負 840 萬美元或每股負 0.07 美元，第三季的 GAAP 收益為正 1,310 萬美元或每股 0.09 美元，反映第四季度 GAAP ROE 為負 3%。具體到第四季度，公允價值變動主要反映了我們較大餘額多戶過橋貸款的市價以及更高的基準利率對我們重新履行的貸款證券的影響。就 2024 年全年而言，我們報告的 GAAP 收益為正 4,700 萬美元或每股 0.32 美元，相當於 GAAP 股本回報率為 4.1%。隨著 GAAP 收益的下降，第四季每股帳面價值下降至 8.46 美元。 2024 年全年，我們實現了 5.7% 的總經濟回報率，其中包括我們的普通股股息，2024 年我們的普通股股息增加了兩倍。

Earnings available for distribution, or EAD, for the fourth quarter was $18.4 million or $0.13 per share compared to $25.2 million or $0.18 per share in the third quarter. The sequential decline primarily reflects the absence of nonrecurring other loan income and the normalization of HEI contributions, the latter of which have benefited from higher than modeled home price appreciation in the third quarter. Excluding these factors, the core earnings drivers of our business remained stable quarter-over-quarter with consistent performance across net interest income, mortgage banking and other income and G&A expense. Net interest income increased 8% from the third quarter to $27.6 million in the fourth quarter, which represented a nearly 40% increase year-over-year, supported by the $525 million of capital we deployed on the year. Fourth quarter income from Sequoia mortgage banking activities was $16.8 million, a slight decrease from the third quarter as gain on sale margins remained well above our historic target range of 75 to 100 basis points, though slightly below the elevated levels from the third quarter.

第四季可供分配收益（EAD）為 1,840 萬美元或每股 0.13 美元，而第三季為 2,520 萬美元或每股 0.18 美元。連續下降主要反映了非經常性其他貸款收入的缺失和高等教育機構繳款的正常化，後者受益於第三季度高於模型的房價漲幅。除這些因素外，我們業務的核心獲利驅動因素較上季保持穩定，淨利息收入、抵押銀行和其他收入以及一般行政費用表現一致。第四季淨利息收入較第三季成長 8%，達到 2,760 萬美元，較去年同期成長近 40%，這得益於我們今年部署的 5.25 億美元資本。紅杉資本抵押貸款銀行業務第四季營收為 1,680 萬美元，較第三季略有下降，因為銷售利潤率仍遠高於我們 75 至 100 個基點的歷史目標範圍，但略低於第三季的高點。

Full year return on capital improved from 10% in 2023 to 22% in 2024. Fourth quarter income from CoreVest mortgage banking activities was $9.6 million, a decrease from the third quarter as higher volume was offset by more normalized margins. Full year adjusted return on capital improved from negative 3% in 2023 to positive 17% in 2024. Our improved return on capital for both operating businesses year-over-year was the result of our focus on growing volume in an efficient capital-light manner. This allowed us to reduce the days we held loans on balance sheet for Sequoia and reduce our working capital for CoreVest by roughly 30%.

全年資本回報率從 2023 年的 10% 提高到 2024 年的 22%。CoreVest 抵押貸款銀行業務在第四季度的收入為 960 萬美元，較第三季度有所下降，因為業務量的增加被更正常的利潤率所抵消。全年調整後資本報酬率從 2023 年的負 3% 改善至 2024 年的正 17%。由於我們專注於以高效的輕資本方式增加產量，我們兩項營運業務的資本回報率同比都有所提高。這使我們能夠減少紅杉資本資產負債表上持有貸款的天數，並將 CoreVest 的營運資本減少約 30%。

G&A expenses decreased from the third quarter, primarily as a result of lower compensation expense. Fourth quarter G&A was effectively flat relative to the same period in 2023 despite significantly higher volumes in our operating platforms. To that point, net cost to originate for CoreVest improved by 28% in 2024 relative to the prior year and Sequoia's cost per loan improved by 59% relative to 2023. In both cases, these improvements were to levels better than our target efficiency ranges. We continue to fortify our balance sheet and build our liquidity.

一般及行政開支較第三季有所減少，主要由於薪資開支減少。儘管我們營運平台的交易量顯著增加，但第四季的 G&A 與 2023 年同期相比基本持平。至此，CoreVest 的淨發起成本在 2024 年較前一年改善了 28%，而 Sequoia 的每筆貸款成本在 2023 年較前一年改善了 59%。在這兩種情況下，這些改進都達到了高於我們目標效率範圍的水平。我們繼續加強我們的資產負債表並增強我們的流動性。

Our unrestricted cash as of December 31 was $245 million, which grew with the $90 million senior unsecured bond offering that priced in January at the tightest yield to treasuries we have achieved in that market. In the fourth quarter, we also completed a transaction to effectively extend a portion of our convertible debt maturities. Together with other actions taken, we have reduced our convertible debt as a percentage of equity from 65% just 2 years ago to 31% at the end of 2024. We reported total recourse leverage of 2.4x for the quarter, down slightly from 2.5x in the third quarter. Recourse leverage in our investment portfolio remained low at 0.8x.

截至 12 月 31 日，我們的無限制現金為 2.45 億美元，這一數字隨著 1 月份我們發行的 9,000 萬美元高級無擔保債券而增長，該債券的收益率是我們在該市場上實現的最低國債收益率。第四季度，我們也完成了一筆交易，有效延長了部分可轉換債務的到期日。結合採取的其他措施，我們已將可轉換債務佔股權的比例從兩年前的 65% 降低到 2024 年底的 31%。我們報告本季的總追索槓桿為 2.4 倍，略低於第三季的 2.5 倍。我們投資組合中的追索槓桿仍保持在 0.8 倍的低點。

At December 31, we had excess warehouse financing capacity of $4.7 billion, more than double from $2.1 billion as of year-end 2023, given the continued growth and scale of our operating platform. We expect to increase our capacity further to support our growth ambitions in 2025 and continue to see strong confidence from our lenders in our ability to seamlessly upsize our facilities, ensuring we can efficiently absorb the portfolios that we anticipate will come out of banks. Looking ahead, we anticipate significant growth in our mortgage banking businesses in 2025, even amidst elevated interest rate levels. As Dash noted, January lock volume for Sequoia exceeded $1 billion, primarily driven by flow business. Given this momentum, we currently anticipate a 30% plus year-over-year volume increase, supporting a target return on capital of approximately 20% for that segment in 2025 with substantial upside potential from large bank portfolios distributed by regional banks.

截至 12 月 31 日，鑑於我們營運平台的持續成長和規模，我們的超額倉庫融資能力為 47 億美元，比 2023 年底的 21 億美元增長了一倍多。我們預計將進一步提高我們的產能，以支持我們在 2025 年的成長目標，並繼續看到貸方對我們無縫擴大設施的能力充滿信心，確保我們能夠有效吸收我們預計將從銀行獲得的投資組合。展望未來，即使利率水準上升，我們預計 2025 年我們的抵押貸款銀行業務也將大幅成長。Dash 指出，紅杉資本 1 月的鎖定量超過 10 億美元，主要由流量業務推動。鑑於這一勢頭，我們目前預計交易量將同比增長 30% 以上，支持該領域在 2025 年實現約 20% 的資本回報率目標，且地區銀行分銷的大型銀行投資組合具有巨大的上行潛力。

CoreVest's early 2025 performance suggests run rate volumes approaching $2.5 billion annually, facilitated by a strategic focus on growing single asset bridge and DSCR originations, a $60-plus billion market where we have substantial ability to grow share. These volumes would underpin a mortgage banking return of 25% to 30% in 2025 for our CoreVest Mortgage Banking segment, given the capital-light nature in which we run the business. Meanwhile, the recent expansion of the Aspire mandate gives us access to the $100 billion addressable market for expanded credit with potential for 2025 volume to exceed $2 billion with run rate returns in line with Sequoia's target return on capital. As there's a lot of market volatility and policy developments unfolding, we will keep the market apprised of our outlook for 2025 later in the first quarter. And with that, operator, we will now open the call for questions.

CoreVest 的 2025 年初業績表明，其運行量接近每年 25 億美元，這得益於我們對發展單一資產橋樑和 DSCR 發起的戰略重點，這是一個價值 600 多億美元的市場，我們擁有相當大的份額增長能力。考慮到我們經營業務的輕資本性質，這些交易量將支撐我們 CoreVest 抵押貸款銀行部門在 2025 年實現 25% 至 30% 的抵押貸款銀行回報率。同時，Aspire 授權的近期擴大使我們能夠進入價值 1000 億美元的潛在信貸市場，預計 2025 年信貸額度將超過 20 億美元，運行率回報率與紅杉資本的目標資本回報率一致。由於市場波動較大且政策不斷發展，我們將在第一季末向市場通報我們對 2025 年的展望。接線員，現在我們可以開始提問了。

Thank you. We'll now be conducting a question-and-answer session. (Operator Instructions)

謝謝。我們現在將進行問答環節。（操作員指令）

Bose George, KBW.

博斯喬治，KBW。

Everyone, good afternoon. I wanted to ask about the current run rate EAD relative to the dividend. You obviously hit it last quarter, but now it's back down again. How do you think about just the run rate, the cadence, the drivers of the EAD getting to the dividend and just the time line that you're expecting now?

大家下午好。我想詢問當前 EAD 相對於股息的運行率。上個季度你顯然已經達到了這個目標，但現在又回落了。您如何看待運行率、節奏、EAD 的驅動因素以及您現在預期的時間表？

Sure, Bose. I'll start. This is Brooke, and then I'll hand it over to Chris. Some of this was in my prepared remarks. But in terms of the kind of quality of EAD, I think sometimes the headline doesn't tell the full story.

當然，Bose。我先開始。這是布魯克，然後我將把它交給克里斯。其中一些已經包含在我準備好的發言稿中。但就 EAD 的品質而言，我認為有時標題並不能說明全部。

We mentioned in our prepared materials that our home equity investment option income was actually down a couple of pennies below what we would expect from just what we see in terms of kind of our baseline assumptions for that portfolio and market drivers. So if we had normalized for what we expect from baseline inflation, EAD would have been roughly $0.15. And we had mentioned actually in Q3 that EAD was a little bit ahead of schedule given some one-timers that I mentioned in the quarter 2. We had elevated margins on certain of our products within CoreVest and then also kind of a onetime nonrecurring fee. But just in terms of drivers that we see of EAD from here, we feel really confident about progress.

我們在準備好的資料中提到，我們的房屋淨值投資選擇權收入實際上比我們根據該投資組合和市場驅動因素的基線假設所預期的收入低了幾美分。因此，如果我們根據基線通膨預期進行標準化，EAD 應該約為 0.15 美元。實際上，我們在第三季就提到過，考慮到我在第二季提到的一些一次性事件，EAD 比計劃稍微提前了一點。我們提高了 CoreVest 內某些產品的利潤率，也收取了一次性的非經常性費用。但僅從我們從這裡看到的 EAD 驅動因素來看，我們對進展充滿信心。

Net interest income has been a really positive story, and we see drivers of that to continue to increase. The bridge yield compression that we've seen recently has slowed. SOFR will be a continued story into the first quarter that will be positive. We saw a 50 basis point decline on our cost of funds in the quarter, and that will really have a full quarter impact in the first quarter. And then you recently saw our $90 million senior unsecured offering, deploying that capital will continue to drive net interest income.

淨利息收入一直是一個非常積極的表現，我們認為其推動力將繼續增加。我們最近看到的橋樑產量壓縮已經放緩。SOFR 將在第一季繼續呈現積極勢頭。本季我們的資金成本下降了 50 個基點，這將對第一季產生整個季度的影響。然後您最近看到了我們9000萬美元的高級無擔保發行，部署這筆資本將繼續推動淨利息收入。

We mentioned really positive early volume drivers for our operating businesses at those more normalized margins will also continue to support EAD. And there's a decent amount of capital optimization to continue, especially as we continue our bridge resolution activity within CoreVest, which will support our EAD further as we redeploy that capital into our operating businesses.

我們提到，對於我們的營運業務來說，早期的銷售驅動因素非常積極，而利潤率則更加正常化，也將繼續支持 EAD。並且還有大量的資本優化需要繼續進行，特別是當我們繼續在 CoreVest 內進行橋樑解決活動時，這將在我們將資本重新部署到我們的營運業務中時進一步支援我們的 EAD。

Yes. I'd just also quickly add, Bose. It's very important to the Board that we pay an attractive dividend from a current income perspective. And obviously, you can see in our financials that we've got a significant amount of liquidity, so we're tracking towards that dividend on an EAD basis. But I'd also say that I think with EAD and adjusted earnings metrics, there's a lot of apples and oranges comparisons across the industry.

是的。我只是想快速補充一下，Bose。從目前收入角度來看，支付有吸引力的股息對董事會來說非常重要。顯然，您可以從我們的財務狀況中看到，我們擁有大量流動資金，因此我們正在按照 EAD 來追蹤股息。但我還想說，我認為，由於 EAD 和調整後的獲利指標，整個產業存在著許多蘋果和橘子之間的比較。

When I look at our book performance over the past few years versus some others in the industry, I think we've significantly outperformed. On an economic basis, sort of neutralizing some of the adjustments, we feel really good about tracking.

當我回顧過去幾年我們與業內其他公司的帳面表現時，我認為我們的表現明顯優於其他公司。從經濟角度來看，透過中和部分調整，我們對追蹤感到非常滿意。

Okay. That's helpful. But just in terms of the time line to, I mean, do you guys think about whatever, 1, 2, 3 quarters of like a time line to the EAD sort of equaling the dividend? Is that something we should --

好的。這很有幫助。但僅就時間線而言，我的意思是，你們是否考慮過無論 1、2、3 個季度的時間線，EAD 是否等於股息？這是我們該做的嗎--

Yes. We feel like we've got good line of sight this year to those converging. But again, as far as the level of the dividend goes, part of that is feedback from shareholders, current income. We've got really strong liquidity. But when we look at NIM growth, and then I think Brooke included some guidance in her remarks around volume growth.

是的。我們感覺今年我們對這些匯聚現像有了很好的認識。但就股利水準而言，其中一部分是來自股東的回饋，即當前收入。我們的流動性非常強勁。但是當我們看一下 NIM 增長時，我認為布魯克在她的評論中對交易量增長提供了一些指導。

We've seen even in January across the business lines, really strong volume growth. We've already done two Sequoia deals priced. So we feel like all of the sort of forward-looking metrics are there for us. And I'd say over the next few quarters, we would expect those to converge.

我們已經看到，即使在一月，各個業務線的銷售成長也非常強勁。我們已經完成了兩筆紅杉交易的定價。因此，我們覺得所有這些前瞻性指標對我們來說都是有用的。我想說，在接下來的幾個季度裡，我們預計這些將會融合。

Okay, great. Thank you.

好的，太好了。謝謝。

Crispin Love, Piper Sandler.

克里斯賓·洛夫，派珀·桑德勒。

his is Brad Capuzzi on for Crispin Love. Just a quick one for me. In terms of the BPL, can you just discuss the competitive environment and how it's shifted at all as rates have backed up?

他是 Crispin Love 的 Brad Capuzzi。對我來說這只是一個快速步驟。就 BPL 而言，您能否討論一下競爭環境以及隨著利率回升它發生了哪些變化？

Sure. Brad, it's Dash. I can take that. I would say it's evolving. I would say it's more of a tailwind at this point for us just based on the depth of our products and also the depth of our capital.

當然。布拉德，我是達許。我可以接受。我想說它正在發展。我想說，就我們產品的深度和資本的深度而言，這對我們來說更像是一種順風。

I think when you combine all the products we're doing across term and bridge, SAB, DSCR and combine that with our distribution, I think that's frankly a very rare combination in this market. We're looking to add talent. We're able to add talent from competitors at this point. based on how the market has evolved. I would say BPL in general, it tends to be a bit more rate agnostic on an overall industry basis.

我認為，當你將我們在定期和過橋貸款、SAB、DSCR 方面開展的所有產品與我們的分銷結合起來時，我認為這在這個市場上是一個非常罕見的組合。我們正在尋求補充人才。此時，我們就可以從競爭對手中吸收人才。根據市場的發展。我想說，總體而言，BPL 傾向於與整個行業基礎上的利率無關。

So there's still good volume out there. SAB and DSCR, as I mentioned, and Brooke too, are areas where we have a lot of room to the ceiling, frankly, in terms of grabbing market share without having to compromise on credit standards or pricing. So we view all those as tailwinds. BPL has always had a lot of different lenders in the space, different shapes and sizes, but we feel really, really good about our combination of product mix, reliable execution and probably most importantly, distribution.

因此，那裡的銷量仍然很好。正如我所提到的，SAB 和 DSCR 以及 Brooke 都是我們在搶佔市場份額方面有很大提升空間的領域，坦白說，不必在信貸標準或定價上妥協。因此我們將所有這些視為順風。BPL 領域一直有許多不同的貸款機構，形態和規模各不相同，但我們對我們的產品組合、可靠的執行以及可能最重要的分銷方式感到非常非常滿意。

Thanks. And then I know the team touched on this a little bit in the prepared remarks. But if you could just give an insight as to where you expect leverage to trend into 2025 and how comfortable you are with the current liquidity position, that would be helpful.

謝謝。然後我知道團隊在準備好的發言中稍微談到了這一點。但如果您能就預期 2025 年槓桿率的趨勢以及您對當前流動性狀況的滿意程度提供一些見解，那將會很有幫助。

Yes, absolutely. Our residential pipeline will be the largest driver of the band of leverage that we have around kind of 2 to 2.5. It could even go up to 3 or beyond just depending on where we are in quarter end timing with disposition activity of some of these larger portfolio activities. I think in our prepared remarks that we mentioned we're seeing $1 billion-plus trade. So that could provide some just very near-term dynamics around leverage at quarter end as we finance those and then distribute.

是的，絕對是如此。我們的住宅管道將成為槓桿率（約 2 至 2.5）的最大驅動力。它甚至可能上升到 3 或更高，這取決於我們在季度末的時間安排以及一些較大的投資組合活動的處置活動。我想我們在準備好的發言中提到，我們看到了 10 多億美元的貿易額。因此，當我們為這些資金提供資金然後進行分配時，這可能會在季度末提供一些非常短期的槓桿動態。

But we feel really good about our liquidity position. We ended the quarter with $245 million of cash. Subsequent to that, we did the nearly $100 million bond offering. We have $325 million of financeable yet unencumbered assets. And so we have significant dry powder from our perspective to continue to fund the business.

但我們對我們的流動性狀況感到非常滿意。本季結束時，我們的現金餘額為 2.45 億美元。隨後，我們發行了近1億美元的債券。我們擁有 3.25 億美元可融資且無抵押的資產。因此，從我們的角度來看，我們擁有充足的資金來繼續為該業務提供資金。

We've also done some very accretive nonrecourse financing activities that have refied away from some of our recourse debt and actually brought in capital. So I feel really good about our liquidity to take advantage of the operating environment right now.

我們也進行了一些非常具有增值的無追索權融資活動，這些活動已經償還了我們的部分追索權債務，並且實際上帶來了資本。因此，我對我們的流動性感到非常滿意，可以利用當前的營運環境。

Eric Hagen, BTIG.

BTIG 的 Eric Hagen。

Hey, thanks. How are we doing? Question on the jumbo. Do you guys feel like there's still room for the credit box to expand? Or just like based on your thresholds for risk, do you feel like you're already maybe operating at the upper end of that risk spectrum? And then when you guys target bulk packages of loans from third parties, is the risk profile similar to what you originate yourselves?

嘿，謝謝。我們做得怎麼樣？關於巨型貨輪的問題。你們覺得信用箱還有擴大的空間嗎？或者只是根據您的風險閾值，您是否覺得自己可能已經處於風險範圍的上限？那麼，當你們瞄準第三方的大量貸款時，風險狀況是否與你們自己發起的貸款相似？

Eric, this is Dash, good questions. I'll take them sequentially. I think in the core jumbo business, there's probably some room, but I would probably point to Aspire, the launch we did about a month ago is probably the best answer to your question in terms of our view that there is a very large existing addressable market for alternative types of loan products that we feel we can purchase and underwrite very, very well. Non-QM was probably an $80-plus billion market for total originations last year. It was the largest non-agency securitization market last year as well.

Eric，我是 Dash，問題問得好。我將按順序進行。我認為在核心大額貸款業務方面可能還有一定的空間，但我可能會指出 Aspire，我們大約一個月前推出的產品可能是對你的問題最好的回答，我們認為現有的替代類型貸款產品的潛在市場非常大，我們認為我們可以非常非常好地購買和承銷這些產品。去年，非 QM 的總發起額可能超過 800 億美元。它也是去年最大的非機構證券化市場。

As Brooke articulated, we expect that TAM to grow to probably $100 billion this year. And when you think about where rates are, some of the dynamics with housing accessibility, we think those products when underwritten well, could be game-changing for our footprint in the space, which is exactly why we've expanded the Aspire mandate. So for sure, I mean, I think within our core jumbo business, we've always had pristine products, DQs remain about 20 basis points or so. But I think the launch of Aspire is probably the best evidence we feel like there's a huge TAM out there that we can access well. In terms of your question on bulk, obviously, it depends on the seller.

正如布魯克所言，我們預計今年的 TAM 將成長到 1000 億美元。當您考慮利率水準、房屋可近性的某些動態時，我們認為，如果承保得當，這些產品可能會改變我們在該領域的足跡，這正是我們擴大 Aspire 授權的原因。所以可以肯定的是，我的意思是，我認為在我們的核心巨額票據業務中，我們一直擁有優質產品，DQ 仍保持在 20 個基點左右。但我認為 Aspire 的推出可能是最好的證據，我們認為市場上有一個巨大的潛在市場，我們可以很好地利用它。關於大量的問題，顯然這取決於賣家。

It depends on the seasoning. I think with more of those seasoned pools, you tend to get lower mark-to-market LTVs, generally out-of-the-money coupons, lower GWACs versus on the run production, probably to state the obvious there. So it depends. But generally, what we've seen has been really pristine credit, delevered borrowers, where it really is just about speed to execution and the ability for a seller to have confidence in a buyer like us to execute.

這取決於調味料。我認為，隨著這些成熟資金池數量的增加，您往往會獲得更低的按市值計價的貸款價值比 (LTV)、通常為價外的息票、與在產相比更低的 GWAC，這可能是顯而易見的。所以這得看情況。但整體而言，我們看到的都是真正純淨的信貸、去槓桿的借款人，真正的問題只是執行速度，以及賣家對我們這樣的買家執行的信心。

Yes. Good color, Dash. When you guys highlight the fact that the unsecured debt has come down to, I think you said 30% of the capital stack, how does that maybe change your philosophy about capital allocation, just call it, this year? I mean, do you feel like it gives you more flexibility to capitalize the bridge portfolio a little further? Or more generally, I mean, is there ways to optimize the leverage in the bridge portfolio any further from here?

是的。好顏色，Dash。當你們強調無擔保債務已降至，我想你們說過佔資本儲備的 30% 時，這可能會如何改變你們關於今年的資本配置理念？我的意思是，您是否覺得它可以讓您更靈活地進一步資本化橋樑投資組合？或者更一般地說，我的意思是，從現在起，有沒有辦法進一步優化橋樑投資組合的槓桿率？

There definitely is. And that will continue to be a priority for us this year, not only in terms of loan level resolutions, but also how we finance that portfolio. We definitely improved that in 2024. There's more room to go, which is a huge focus for us, particularly on the bridge portfolio. As it relates to the broader capital structure, I think, yes, as you know, a lot of what we've done is optimize our secured leverage, which has helped us reduce our unsecured financing, particularly our converts.

肯定有。這仍將是今年我們的首要任務，不僅在貸款水準決議方面，而且在我們如何為該投資組合融資方面。我們肯定會在 2024 年改善這一點。還有更大的發展空間，這是我們關注的重點，特別是在橋樑投資組合方面。就更廣泛的資本結構而言，我認為，是的，如您所知，我們所做的許多工作是優化我們的擔保槓桿，這有助於我們減少無擔保融資，特別是我們的可轉換融資。

Obviously, the $90 million offering that Brooke referenced was also unsecured. But what that allows us to do, Eric, I referenced this a little bit at the end of my remarks is since those are secured, as those delever, there's room to relever those. We've done that a fair amount over the past few quarters. And just the nature of that debt allows us to access more capital more quickly in terms of how that's structured. And that capital is going right into the operating businesses.

顯然，布魯克提到的 9000 萬美元報價也是無擔保的。但是，埃里克，我在最後提到了這一點，這使我們能夠做的是，由於這些都是有保障的，因此隨著這些資產的去槓桿化，就有重新槓桿化的空間。過去幾季我們已經做了很多這樣的工作。就債務結構而言，其性質使我們能夠更快地獲得更多資本。這些資金將直接投入營運業務。

As it relates to the unsecured that we've been sort of legging into, one difference I'd call out is some of the optionality. Like as you know, with converts, they tend not to be callable or maybe callable in a very short period of time before their maturity. The unsecured debt we've legged into here over these past 3 issuances has been 5-year non-call 2, which was really, really good prepayment optionality for us and allows us to optimize that part of our capital structure much sooner than we otherwise would have with doing more convertibles.

由於它與我們一直在涉足的無擔保貸款有關，我想指出的一個區別是一些可選性。如您所知，對於可轉換債券，它們往往無法被贖回，或者在到期前很短的時間內無法被贖回。我們在過去三次發行的無擔保債務中，所持有的都是 5 年期不可贖回債券 2，這對我們來說是非常好的一種提前還款選擇，並且使我們能夠比發行更多可轉換債券更快地優化我們資本結構的這一部分。

Thanks for the great color. Appreciate you guys.

謝謝你這麼美的色彩。感謝你們。

Steve Delaney, Citizens JMP.

史蒂夫·德萊尼 (Steve Delaney)，公民 JMP。

I guess, Brooke, just for starters, I think when you guys first started talking about the segments and you had a lot of moving pieces. I just want to applaud the decision to kind of with Sequoia, CoreVest and Redwood, just to have all the consumer mortgage products in Sequoia, the investor products in CoreVest, that really will help us, I think, as we set up our models and just explain the company to tie the products, to kind of brand the products, I guess, is what I'm saying and connect your segments to the products like that. My question is, rates really matter today. I mean, I can't remember a time in my career where people spend as much time talking about rates and what the Fed is going to do and what the 10-year is going to do. And it just seems like the whole stock market is trading off rates.

我想，布魯克，只是開始而已，我想當你們第一次開始談論片段時，你們有很多移動的部分。我只是想對與 Sequoia、CoreVest 和 Redwood 合作的決定表示讚賞，將所有消費者抵押貸款產品都納入 Sequoia，將投資者產品納入 CoreVest，我認為這真的會對我們有幫助，因為我們建立了我們的模型，並解釋了公司如何將投資者產品綁定在一起，將產品品牌化，我想，這就是我所說的，並將您的細分市場與產品聯繫起來。我的問題是，利率在當今確實很重要。我的意思是，在我的職業生涯中，我從未記得人們花如此多的時間討論利率、聯準會將做什麼以及 10 年期國債將做什麼。看起來好像整個股市都在權衡利率。

So, as an analyst, it's kind of frustrating, but rates really do matter. And I guess to that point, Dash, could you give us an idea of where you're pricing 30-year prime jumbos, owner-occupied. I assume you probably have these rates on a website somewhere. I'm just curious where that rate is, owner-occupied prime jumbo, 30-year fixed. Where are we today?

因此，作為一名分析師，這有點令人沮喪，但利率確實很重要。我想說到這一點，Dash，您能否告訴我們您對 30 年期優質巨型自住物業的定價是多少？我估計你可能在某個網站上有這些費率。我只是好奇利率是多少，自住優質巨額貸款，30 年固定利率。我們今天在哪裡？

What's the range of the coupons on those mortgages?

這些抵押貸款的票面利率是多少？

Sure, Steve. It moves around day-to-day, obviously, but I would contextualize it as probably high 6s. Depending on credit overlay, it may touch a 7 handle right now. That's where we sit today.

當然，史蒂夫。顯然，它每天都在變化，但我認為它可能是 6 分高位。根據信用覆蓋，它現在可能會觸及 7 個手柄。這就是我們今天的處境。

Okay. 6.5, [6.47] probably in that ballpark. Yes. And just thinking back, Dash, like over the last 6 to 12 months, where has the low been?

好的。 6.5，[6.47] 大概就在這個範圍內。是的。回想一下，Dash，在過去 6 到 12 個月裡，最低點在哪裡？

And I'm trying to get a sense for where we are today versus the bottom and how many people are sitting around waiting for rates to go back down 50 basis points.

我試圖了解目前利率相對於底部的水平是多少，以及有多少人在等待利率回落 50 個基點。

The recent lows over the past 18 months, there was probably a very short period of time when it was back to a 5 handle, very, very high 5s, but it's largely bounced around in the 6s when the 10-year was up sort of closer to 5%, our rates were probably very low 7, 725, or thereabouts. That's the range. And to your point, Steve, that range over a 5- to 6-quarter period of time, I think, underscores just all the movements in rates that the market is grappling with to your point.

在過去 18 個月的近期低點中，可能有一個很短的時期回到了 5 點左右，非常非常高的 5 點，但當 10 年期債券收益率接近 5% 時，它基本上在 6 點左右波動，我們的利率可能非常低，為 7,725 左右。這就是範圍。正如您所說，史蒂夫，我認為，5 到 6 個季度期間的範圍突顯了市場正在努力應對的所有利率變動。

No question. We had that huge bond rally in September. I think the lows in the 10-year were in September, and now we're 100 or so above 100 basis points above that. That's helpful just to kind of get a sense of, it's kind of what I expected, but I wasn't really sure where jumbo was pricing versus conventional and that type of thing. So all right.

毫無疑問。九月份，債券市場大幅上漲。我認為 10 年期收益率的低點出現在 9 月份，現在我們比當時高出了 100 個基點左右。這很有幫助，只是讓我有點了解，這有點像我所期望的，但我真的不確定巨型定價與傳統定價之類的東西。好吧。

That's helpful. I don't think I have anything else right now. we can pray for some rate relief, but I think it sounds like you guys have a business that's working with where rates are today. And I think that's the most important thing is you're not depending on 50 to 100 basis points and lower to run your business.

這很有幫助。我想我現在沒有其他事情了。我們可以祈禱利率降低，但我認為這聽起來像是你們的業務正在根據當前的利率進行運作。我認為最重要的是你不能依賴 50 到 100 個基點甚至更低的利率來經營你的業務。

No. Actually, Steve, I would accent that by saying as rates have held out higher for longer, we're seeing great opportunities from banks, some of which have announced exits from various facets of the mortgage business. I think we've proven to be really effective at pipeline risk management. And our deals, our Sequoia deals continue to price at the tightest levels in the sector. There's been 5 or 6 issuers so far this year.

不。實際上，史蒂夫，我想強調的是，由於利率長期維持在高位，我們看到銀行帶來的巨大機遇，其中一些銀行已宣布退出抵押貸款業務的各個方面。我認為我們已經證明我們的管道風險管理非常有效。我們的交易，我們的紅杉交易的價格繼續保持在業內最嚴格的水平。今年截至目前已有 5 或 6 家發行人。

Both of our deals have priced tightest, at least according to my records. And that gives us an advantage in not just gain on sale margins, but how we can bid some of these big pools, $1 billion-plus pools that we're now starting to see. So actually, the rate environment has created opportunities that we wouldn't see with a rally. But obviously, I think the sector and certainly the housing market would be well served by some rate relief. I don't see the catalyst in the near term.

至少根據我的記錄，我們兩筆交易的定價都是最嚴格的。這不僅為我們帶來了銷售利潤方面的優勢，而且讓我們能夠競標一些大型地產池，例如我們現在開始看到的 10 億美元以上的房地產池。因此實際上，利率環境創造了我們在反彈中不會看到的機會。但顯然，我認為一定程度的利率下調將有利於該行業，尤其是房地產市場。我看不到短期內的催化劑。

Afraid you're right. Well, thank you all for the color. I appreciate it.

恐怕你是對的。好吧，謝謝大家的顏色。我很感激。

Doug Harter, UBS.

瑞銀的道格·哈特（Doug Harter）。

Thanks. Chris, I know you touched on this during your prepared remarks, but if we could just get into a little bit more around your comfort that the banks are going to continue to look to kind of offload mortgage if there is kind of regulatory relief and how much of that opportunity is kind of truly more interest rate and risk management versus regulatory capital relief?

謝謝。克里斯，我知道您在準備好的發言中提到了這一點，但我們是否可以更深入地討論一下您是否認為，如果有某種監管放鬆，銀行將繼續尋求減輕抵押貸款負擔，以及這種機會在多大程度上真正更多地是利率和風險管理，而不是監管資本減免？

Yes. Doug, Powell, I think, actually spoke to a conviction on getting the Basel III rules sort of back reproposed. So that actually may happen sooner than later. But certainly, it will be more capital neutral. I think the real driver right now is the rate environment.

是的。我認為，道格，鮑威爾實際上表達了重新提出巴塞爾協議 III 規則的決心。因此這實際上可能很快就會發生。但可以肯定的是，它將更加資本中立。我認為目前真正的驅動因素是利率環境。

And as I mentioned, just the lack of a catalyst for rates to come down. I think these banks are just looking out. They're not seeing much production growth in mortgage as an asset class. The moving resources, moving capital, the M&A picture has changed overnight for banks. We could see a lot more M&A starting this year.

正如我所提到的，只是缺乏推動利率下降的催化劑。我認為這些銀行只是在觀察情況。他們沒有看到抵押貸款這一資產類別的產量有太大成長。對銀行來說，資源流動、資本流動和併購情勢在一夜之間發生了變化。我們可能會看到今年出現更多的併購。

And for all those reasons, I think mortgage is up for grabs. We saw, which has been in the news, a $9 billion pool that came to market a few weeks ago, which we bid on behalf of Redwood. We've seen others come up, and we're working on a few right now. So behind the scenes, there's actually a lot happening that gives me a lot of optimism that in addition to our flow run rates, which Brooke spoke to, we'll be able to supplement that with some pretty sizable bank portfolio trades. And I think for us, the most interesting part is that we're live already with a number of these regional banks, which means the technology, the purchase agreements, all of the vetting, all of the safeguards, all of that is in place.

基於所有這些原因，我認為抵押貸款是可行的。我們看到新聞報道稱幾週前有一個價值 90 億美元的資金池進入市場，我們代表 Redwood 進行競標。我們已經看到其他問題的出現​​，現在我們正在研究一些問題。因此，在幕後，實際上發生了很多事情，這些事情讓我非常樂觀，除了布魯克談到的我們的流量運作率之外，我們還可以透過一些相當大的銀行投資組合交易來補充這一點。我認為對我們來說，最有趣的部分是我們已經與許多地區性銀行合作，這意味著技術、購買協議、所有審查、所有保障措施，所有這些都已到位。

So when we bid, we can stipulate a close time frame that's very, very accelerated. So I think we expect to be very competitive in the coming months on that front. And there are some banks that are buying loans from us. So everyone has different needs and different buckets to fill. I think the real franchise value is in the relationships and just having all of that plumbing in place and having the trust back still.

因此，當我們投標時，我們可以規定一個非常非常快的緊迫時間框架。因此我認為我們預計未來幾個月在這方面的競爭力將會非常強。還有一些銀行正在向我們購買貸款。所以每個人都有不同的需求和不同的需要滿足的條件。我認為特許經營的真正價值在於人際關係、所有管道的建立以及信任的恢復。

Very helpful. Thank you.

非常有幫助。謝謝。

Don Fandetti, Wells Fargo.

富國銀行的唐‧范德蒂 (Don Fandetti)。

Yeah. Yes. A question. If I look at all the different areas of potential new investment originations portfolios, it just seems like there's like [indiscernible] perspective so that we don't get in a scenario where you bring out a big portfolio and the securitization markets widen out. How are you thinking about that?

是的。是的。一個問題。如果我檢視所有潛在的新投資發起投資組合的不同領域，似乎就存在這樣的觀點：我們不會陷入這樣的境地：你推出一個大型投資組合，證券化市場就會擴大。您覺得這個怎麼樣？

Yes. Across the business, to start with BPL, we've established these joint ventures. We could potentially establish more. That's always a focus area. And so for some of those larger loans, which you would see in BPL, having established capital partners to risk share and to support that business has been huge.

是的。在整個業務範圍內，從 BPL 開始，我們已經建立了這些合資企業。我們有可能建立更多。這始終是一個重點領域。因此，對於 BPL 中的一些較大貸款而言，建立資本合作夥伴來分擔風險並支持該業務具有重大意義。

And that's really freed up our capital to increase our mortgage banking velocities across the franchise. In the resi business, we are seeing these big portfolio trades, which we think these are franchise accretive opportunities for us. So we want to be able to bid consistently in the market. And as Brooke mentioned, we've got an excess of financing right now. I think a lot of banks are aware of the opportunities that we're seeing through some of these regional partnerships and are very willing and able to bank them.

這確實釋放了我們的資本，以提高整個特許經營業務的抵押貸款銀行業務速度。在住宅業務中，我們看到這些大型投資組合交易，我們認為這些對我們來說是特許經營增值機會。因此我們希望能夠在市場上持續競標。正如布魯克所提到的，我們現在的融資過剩。我認為許多銀行都意識到了我們透過一些區域合作夥伴關係看到的機遇，並且非常願意並且能夠為這些機會提供服務。

But the securitization markets are a big part of the story and the distribution. We'll continue to supplement that with insurance partnerships or other joint ventures, pension funds we may look at. But right now, the capital picture, I think, here is as good as it's been in quite some time, our cash position, our recourse leverage and then sort of the off-balance sheet capital that we can speak for through partnerships makes me feel really good about going on offense and being aggressive in 2025.

但證券化市場是故事和分銷的重要組成部分。我們將繼續透過保險合作夥伴關係或其他合資企業以及我們可能考慮的退休基金來補充這一點。但就目前而言，我認為，我們的資本狀況與相當長一段時間以來一樣好，我們的現金狀況、我們的追索槓桿，以及我們可以透過合作夥伴關係獲得的表外資本，讓我對在 2025 年發起進攻並積極進取感到非常高興。

Got it. And then on the Aspire home equity, can you talk a little bit about, I assume that's similar where you're either selling and securitizing. Can you talk about the margins in that business as they might, you talked about the $2 billion plus potential new investments?

知道了。然後關於 Aspire 房屋淨值，您能否稍微談一下，我認為這與您出售和證券化的情況類似。您能談談該業務的利潤率嗎？您談到了 20 億美元以上的潛在新投資？

Yes. Doug, it's Dash. I would contextualize those target gross margins in the same vein that we've historically targeted for Sequoia, sort of that 75 to 100 basis point range on the expanded product loans that we're buying from our seller network and soon-to-be expanded seller network with new partners. We'll likely start with whole loan sales. There's a very robust and deep demand for those sorts of products.

是的。道格，我是達什。我會將這些目標毛利率與我們過去為紅杉資本設定的目標放在同一背景下，即從我們的賣家網絡和即將與新合作夥伴一起擴展的賣家網絡購買的擴展產品貸款的 75 到 100 個基點的範圍。我們可能會從全部貸款銷售開始。人們對此類產品的需求非常強勁且強烈。

There's also a very vibrant securitization market. as we mentioned earlier, a joint venture partnership or similar capital partnership is very much in the cards for that business, as Chris articulated. But that's how I would think about gross margin targets for Aspire.

證券化市場也非常活躍。正如我們之前提到的，正如克里斯所闡述的，合資夥伴關係或類似的資本夥伴關係對於該業務來說是非常有可能的。但這就是我對 Aspire 毛利率目標的看法。

Rick Shane, JP Morgan.

摩根大通的里克·沙恩 (Rick Shane)。

Hey everyone, thanks for taking my question. I have a couple actually this afternoon. When we look at the mortgage banking results for the fourth quarter, income was down slightly from the third. But what's interesting is that the mix really shifted more net interest income this quarter than last, less banking revenue. When we look at the locks and commitments, they were roughly the same. So it doesn't really explain it.

大家好，謝謝你們回答我的問題。今天下午我實際上有幾件事。當我們查看第四季度的抵押貸款銀行業務業績時，收入較第三季略有下降。但有趣的是，本季的淨利息收入確實比上一季增加了，而銀行收入減少了。當我們查看鎖和承諾時，它們大致相同。所以它實際上並沒有解釋這一點。

Is this a function of holding the loans through the fourth quarter given the volatility in year-end stuff and then that's driving the pickup in Sequoia securitization volume in Q1?

考慮到年底的波動性，這是否是第四季度持有貸款的結果，從而推動了第一季紅杉證券化交易量的回升？

I'm happy to address that. We've talked a little bit about the last few quarters, just how we've evolved our financing and hedging strategy for the business. And I think that's really what you see in terms of an overall stability in kind of the net contribution of Sequoia, but different aspects of how that's coming through the bottom line. Last quarter, we said our gain on sale was really half of it or so was attributable to the kind of large rally we had at the end of the quarter in rates. And so that's some of the difference, but it was really hedge outperformance and some of our positive carrying hedges that were showing up through NII that are the result of a composition shift.

我很高興談論這個問題。我們已經談論了一些過去幾個季度的情況，即我們如何發展業務融資和對沖策略。我認為這確實是紅杉資本淨貢獻整體穩定的表現，但它對底線的影響則有所不同。上個季度，我們表示我們的銷售收益實際上有一半左右歸因於季度末利率的大幅上漲。這就是一些差異，但實際上是對沖優異表現，以及透過 NII 表現出來的我們的一些正向持有對沖，這是結構轉變的結果。

Got it. And the reason I ask the question is the capital efficiency slide disclosure is a little bit different this quarter than it was last. And my conclusion from sort of comparing them is it does look like perhaps you held the loans a little bit longer in the fourth. We're just trying to think about how to sort of plot this out going forward.

知道了。我之所以問這個問題，是因為本季的資本效率投影片揭露與上一季略有不同。透過比較，我得出的結論是，看起來你可能在第四季持有貸款的時間更長一些。我們只是在思考下一步該如何規劃這一切。

I think one dynamic you saw in the fourth quarter is that we sold a large portion of our loans in the form of whole loan sale. That tends to be a slightly longer settlement time frame than our inside monthly securitization cadence and a lot of those settled right in the beginning of the year. So you are right to point that out. I think going forward, we certainly hope it's a solid blend of the 2 distribution channels. We'll look to whatever is the most accretive, but that could extend our days on balance sheet slightly.

我認為您在第四季度看到的一個動態是，我們以整體貸款銷售的形式出售了很大一部分貸款。這往往是一個比我們內部每月證券化節奏稍長的結算時間，而且很多結算都是在年初完成的。所以你指出這一點是正確的。我認為，展望未來，我們當然希望這是兩個分銷管道的完美結合。我們會尋找最具增值效益的東西，但這可能會稍微延長我們的資產負債表時間。

I think in general, you have seen a large pickup in our capital efficiency for the business over the last couple of quarters, we've really driven down our cost per loan. And we see a lot of the dynamics that drove NII and at least mortgage banking NII for Sequoia to persist through the first quarter as well.

我認為總體而言，在過去幾個季度裡，我們已經看到我們業務的資本效率大幅提升，我們確實降低了每筆貸款的成本。我們看到許多動態因素推動 NII 以及至少紅杉資本的抵押銀行 NII 在第一季持續存在。

Got it. Okay. That's very helpful. Second question, when we look at the delinquencies, they were flat for 3 of the 4 categories. CAFL was up noticeably after being up in the third quarter as well.

知道了。好的。這非常有幫助。第二個問題，當我們查看拖欠情況時，發現四個類別中有三個類別的拖欠情況是持平的。CAFL 在第三節領先後也明顯上漲。

Is this seasonal? Is this concentrated in any particular regions? How should we interpret the increase in 90-day DQs in that product?

這是季節性的嗎？這是否集中在某些特定區域？我們該如何解釋該產品 90 天 DQ 的增加？

Rick, it's Dash. I can take that. I don't think it's necessarily seasonal, but I would emphasize that with those sorts of portfolios because they're stabilized, a lot of the times, this is just borrowers sort of dealing with short-term collection issues or short-term OpEx increases and getting back on sides, which is what we largely expect with this uptick. That book actually prepaid reasonably quickly during the fourth quarter. So about 30 or 40 basis points of that increase is also just a smaller pool size.

里克，我是達什。我可以接受。我認為這不一定是季節性的，但我要強調的是，由於這些投資組合是穩定的，很多時候，這只是藉款人處理短期收款問題或短期營運支出增加並重新回到立場，這正是我們對這種上漲的基本預期。該筆款項實際上在第四季度的預付款相當快。因此，約 30 或 40 個基點的成長也只是資金池規模較小而已。

We haven't securitized those loans in about 1.5 years. We've been largely selling them either into joint ventures or frankly, to insurance companies. And so part of the uptick is also the fact that it's a smaller pool size quarter-on-quarter.

我們已經大約一年半沒有將這些貸款證券化了。我們主要將其出售給合資企業或保險公司。因此，上漲的部分原因也是由於人才池規模比上一季縮小。

Got it. Okay. That makes sense. Last question, and since I'm sort of, I think, at the tail end of this, I hope you guys will indulge me one last one. When we think about the Aspire product and we compare it to the traditional Sequoia product, the traditional Sequoia product had extremely low losses and more importantly, I think a very, very low beta to the mortgage credit cycle.

知道了。好的。這很有道理。最後一個問題，由於我想這個問題已經快要結束了，我希望你們能再答我最後一個問題。當我們考慮 Aspire 產品並將其與傳統的 Sequoia 產品進行比較時，傳統的 Sequoia 產品的損失極低，更重要的是，我認為其抵押貸款信貸週期的貝塔係數非常非常低。

That is really the inherent strength of that product. I'm curious when you think about Aspire, and it sounds like it's largely home equity, but it also sounds like it may be some high LTV and maybe some lower FICO scores. Can you give us some context on that? Is the potential here that it is a higher returning product for you, but also has a higher standard deviation of returns over the cycle?

這確實是該產品的內在優勢。我很好奇當您想到 Aspire 時，它聽起來主要是房屋淨值，但聽起來也可能是一些高 LTV 和一些較低的 FICO 分數。您能給我們一些相關背景資訊嗎？這是否有可能為您帶來更高的回報產品，但在整個週期內回報的標準差也更高？

Yes, Rick, I'll start, and we can see where it goes. But Aspire, just taking a step back, it's become a big initiative of ours because the institutional seller base that we operate has started to onboard more of these products. So as we've been in this higher for longer environment, I think the prospects of a refi wave that many large originators, top 10 originators were hoping for or waiting for, I think they're not waiting for anymore. And as a result of that, they're refocusing on more specialty products, non-QM products, DSCR, bank statement, second liens, as you noted. So really an expansion from the traditional 30-year fixed jumbo, et cetera.

是的，里克，我先開始，我們可以看看事情會如何發展。但退一步來說，Aspire 已經成為我們的一項重大舉措，因為我們經營的代理商賣家群體已經開始採用更多此類產品。因此，由於我們已經處於這種較長時間的較高環境中，我認為許多大型發起人、前十大發起人所希望或等待的再融資浪潮的前景，我認為他們不會再等待了。因此，正如您所說，他們重新將重點放在更多專業產品、非 QM 產品、DSCR、銀行對帳單、第二留置權。因此，這實際上是傳統 30 年期固定巨額債券等的擴展。

So I think because of that, it's interesting, the non-QM space has really been a focus of bespoke originators, specialty originators. And what we're seeing is sort of the blue bloods of the industry get really focused on these products, which is great for us because we're completely plugged in there, and in many cases, a top 1 or top 2 buyer of their mortgages. And so it was really an expansion that started with originators that we plan to sort of pick up that business. But we ran Redwood Choice. We had branded our expanded program in past years.

因此，我認為正因為如此，非 QM 領域才真正成為客製化發起人、專業發起人的焦點，這很有趣。我們看到的是，該行業的精英都真正關注這些產品，這對我們來說是件好事，因為我們完全融入其中，而且在很多情況下，我們是這些公司抵押貸款的前 1 或前 2 名買家。因此，這實際上是一種從發起人開始的擴張，我們計劃接手這項業務。但我們經營的是 Redwood Choice。我們在過去幾年中已經為我們的擴展計劃打上了品牌烙印。

This isn't wildly different. We expect credit performance to be very, very strong. Since these could be higher LTV or they could be alternative underwrites, certainly, we would expect the performance not to meet sort of the super prime jumbo experience, which I think Dash mentioned was around 20 basis points. We still are very early innings, and we don't have a lot of performance history with these products at Redwood. So it's going to take some time to see how things shake out.

這並沒有什麼太大的不同。我們預期信貸表現將會非常非常強勁。由於這些可能是更高的 LTV，或者可能是替代承銷，當然，我們預計表現不會達到超級優質巨額體驗，我認為 Dash 提到的是在 20 個基點左右。我們仍處於非常早期的階段，而且這些產品在 Redwood 的業績表現還不是很出色。因此需要一些時間來觀察事情如何發展。

But I wouldn't think of this as a huge deviation credit-wise from what you've seen from us. We expect these to be really good credits. And I think the real shift is just seeing these product classes being onboarded by the really large institutional originators as opposed to some of the smaller originators that have been leading the charge here in the past.

但我並不認為這與我們所見到的信用狀況有巨大偏差。我們期望這將會是非常好的結果。我認為真正的轉變是看到這些產品類別被真正大型的機構發起人所採用，而不是過去一直處於領先地位的一些較小的發起人所採用。

Jason Weaver, JonesTrading.

傑森·韋弗（Jason Weaver），瓊斯貿易（JonesTrading）。

First, I was hoping you might be able to characterize a bit of what your conversations are going like. I know that GSE reform is probably a long-dated prospect, but how are you thinking about expanding either the seller network within Sequoia or expanding wallet share and how your negotiations with those partners are going right now?

首先，我希望您能夠稍微描述一下您的談話內容。我知道 GSE 改革可能是一個長期的前景，但您如何考慮擴大紅杉資本內部的賣家網絡或擴大錢包份額，以及您與這些合作夥伴的談判現在進展如何？

Our network, we already do business with the vast majority of the industry. Our originators are originating agency mortgages, non-agency mortgages. And so we feel very plugged in across the board. I do think that GSE reform or privatization is a long ways away. We commented in our prepared remarks that our advocacy in Washington will be focused on sort of the DOGE approach to GSEs, which is mission creep and loan limits.

透過我們的網絡，我們已經與業內絕大多數企業開展業務。我們的發起人是發起機構抵押貸款和非機構抵押貸款。因此，我們在各方面都感到自己非常投入。我確實認為政府支持企業改革或私有化還有很長的路要走。我們在準備好的演講中表示，我們在華盛頓的倡議將集中在 DOGE 對 GSE 的方法上，即任務蔓延和貸款限制。

We think it's crazy that the government is subsidizing $1.2 million mortgages. Those are the types of things that I think could change in the near term that have been enabled by regulators over the past few years. That's business that we've spoken for, for years and years and have done a great job serving that market. So for me, it's more what can we do to refocus the GSEs on core mission activities, let the private sector fill in the gaps. And if the GSEs do move towards privatization, that would level the playing field for us.

我們認為政府補貼 120 萬美元的抵押貸款太瘋狂了。我認為這些事情在短期內可能會發生變化，過去幾年監管機構已經推動了這些事情的發生。這是我們多年來一直倡導的事業，並為該市場做出了巨大的服務。因此對我來說，更重要的是我們可以做些什麼來讓政府支持企業重新專注於核心任務活動，讓私部門來填補空缺。如果政府支持企業確實走向私有化，那將為我們帶來公平的競爭環境。

So we've been operating in the private sector with no subsidies of any kind. And if that playing field gets leveled, we feel extremely good about our capacity to compete, our securitization infrastructure, all of those things. But I'm not sure that our seller base will change significantly, through the Aspire initiative, in addition to our current sellers, we'll probably add a host of special originators as well that we'll buy loans from.

因此，我們一直在私營部門運營，沒有任何形式的補貼。如果競爭環境變得公平，我們會對我們的競爭能力、我們的證券化基礎設施以及所有這些東西感到非常滿意。但我不確定我們的賣家基礎是否會發生重大變化，透過 Aspire 計劃，除了我們現有的賣家之外，我們可能還會添加一些特殊的發起人，我們將從他們那裡購買貸款。

Got it. And one other just slight modeling question. saw some overhead relief in the run rate in G&A from last quarter. Aside from volume issues and seasonal patterns, are you seeing any efficiency efforts there that you expect to persist?

知道了。還有一個稍微有點兒建模的問題。與上個季度相比，G&A 的運行率有所降低。除了數量問題和季節性模式之外，您是否看到任何您希望持續的效率努力？

Yes. The decline that we saw in the fourth quarter was really driven by lower compensation expense. A lot of our variable compensation and equity compensation is very closely aligned with performance. So the performance in the fourth quarter translated to lower OpEx there. I think as we go forward, we've pointed to several markers for how we're engaging the kind of KPIs of our business across our operating platforms and Redwood as a whole on how we've been driving efficiency over the last year.

是的。我們看到的第四季的下滑實際上是由於薪資支出的下降造成的。我們的許多浮動薪酬和股權薪酬都與績效密切相關。因此第四季的業績意味著那裡的營運支出降低。我認為，隨著我們不斷前進，我們已經指出了幾個標誌，表明我們如何在我們的營運平台上以及整個 Redwood 中運用我們的業務 KPI，以及我們在過去一年中如何提高效率。

A lot of that was as our operating businesses were subscale and we were pulling back volumes and cutting costs accordingly. I think as you see expense as we move forward, a lot of it will be very tied to profitable growth of our operating businesses and variable compensation that follows performance.

其中很大一部分是因為我們營運的業務規模較小，因此我們正在減少產量並削減成本。我認為，隨著我們未來的發展，許多費用將與我們營運業務的獲利成長以及跟隨業績的可變薪酬密切相關。

There are no further questions at this time. I'd like to hand the floor back over to Kaitlyn Mauritz for any closing comments.

目前沒有其他問題。我想將發言權交還給凱特琳·莫里茲 (Kaitlyn Mauritz)，請她發表最後評論。

Great. Thank you, everyone, for joining our call today. We appreciate you taking the time to hear our view on the quarter and outlook for 2025. As we mentioned, there's a handful of materials on our website in the form of the Redwood Review in the shareholder letter that we encourage you to take a look at. And thank you again and have a good evening.

偉大的。感謝大家今天參加我們的電話會議。感謝您花時間聽取我們對本季和 2025 年展望的看法。正如我們所提到的，我們的網站上有一些以股東信中的 Redwood Review 形式提供的資料，我們鼓勵您查看。再次感謝您，祝您晚上愉快。

This concludes today's conference. You may disconnect your lines at this time. Thank you for your participation.

今天的會議到此結束。現在您可以斷開您的線路。感謝您的參與。