Rithm Property Trust Inc (RPT) 2026 Q1 法說會逐字稿

Thank you, and good morning, everyone. I would like to thank you for joining us today for Rithm Property Trust's first-quarter 2026 earnings call. Joining me today are Michael Nierenberg, Chief Executive Officer of Rithm Capital and Rithm Property Trust; and Nick Santoro, Chief Financial Officer of Rithm Capital and Rithm Property Trust. Throughout the call, we reference the earnings supplement that was posted this morning to the Rithm Property Trust website, www.rithmpropertytrust.com. If you've not already done so, I'd encourage you to download the presentation now.

謝謝，各位早安。感謝各位今天參加 Rithm Property Trust 2026 年第一季財報電話會議。今天與我一同出席的有：Rithm Capital 與 Rithm Property Trust 的執行長 Michael Nierenberg，以及 Rithm Capital 與 Rithm Property Trust 的財務長 Nick Santoro。在本次電話會議中，我們將引用今天早上已發布於 Rithm Property Trust 網站（www.rithmpropertytrust.com）的財報補充資料。若您尚未下載，建議您現在就下載該簡報。

I would like to point out that certain statements made today will be forward-looking. These statements, by their nature, are uncertain and may differ materially from actual results. I encourage you to review the disclaimers in our press release and earnings supplement regarding forward-looking statements and to review the risk factors contained in our annual and quarterly reports filed with the SEC. In addition, we will be discussing some non-GAAP financial measures during today's call. Reconciliations of these measures to the most directly comparable GAAP measures can be found in our earnings supplement.

我想提醒各位，今天所作的某些陳述將屬於前瞻性陳述。這些陳述依其性質具有不確定性，且可能與實際結果有重大差異。我建議您查閱我們新聞稿與財報補充資料中關於前瞻性陳述的免責聲明，並查閱我們向美國證券交易委員會（SEC）提交的年度與季度報告中所載的風險因素。此外，我們在今天的電話會議中也將討論一些非 GAAP 財務衡量指標。這些指標與最直接可比的 GAAP 指標之調節表可在我們的財報補充資料中找到。

And with that, I will turn the call over to Michael.

那麼，接下來我把電話交給 Michael。

Thanks, Ann. Good morning, everyone, and thanks for joining us. For the quarter, the company had a pretty uneventful quarter as we continue to look for opportunities that could be a game changer for this capital vehicle. With asset manager valuations under pressure, downward pressure on equity valuations in the public markets, we're going to continue to remain patient and work towards creating value for shareholders. While the geopolitical events affecting the world, credit spreads have remained actually in a relatively tight range and markets in general are performing away from the headline risk we've seen in some of the retail private credit.

謝謝，Ann。各位早安，感謝大家加入我們。本季公司表現相對平穩，沒有太多特別事件；我們仍持續尋找可能為這個資本載體帶來重大轉變的機會。在資產管理公司估值承壓、公開市場股權估值也面臨下行壓力的情況下，我們將持續保持耐心，致力於為股東創造價值。儘管地緣政治事件影響全球，信用利差其實仍維持在相對狹窄的區間內，整體市場的表現也大致未受我們在部分零售私募信貸所見的頭條風險所左右。

Even there, if you take out the retail component, private credit is still performing well. The software headlines you've been reading about will take a while to play out and the earlier vintages in the private credit world where companies borrowed money at large multiples of revenue will likely be the ones affected negatively in the future. And a lot of those deals were originated back in the 2021 and '21-ish kind of vintage.

即便在那裡，如果把零售部分排除，私募信貸的表現仍然良好。你們近期看到的軟體相關新聞需要一段時間才會發酵；而在私募信貸領域中，那些公司以高倍數營收借款的較早期批次（vintage）未來可能會受到較負面的影響。許多這類交易是在 2021 年、以及大約 2021 年前後的批次所承作。

For RPT, we positioned the company for success by doing the following: when we took over this vehicle in '24 we made a decision to clean up the balance sheet, liquidate a lot of the residential stuff and reposition the company for in the commercial space, using this as an opportunistic vehicle to deploy capital in the commercial world.

就 RPT 而言，我們透過以下方式讓公司處於成功的位置：當我們在 2024 年接手這個載體時，我們決定先整理資產負債表、處分大量住宅相關資產，並將公司重新定位到商用不動產領域，把它作為一個機會型載體，在商用市場中部署資本。

Today, the company has just a little under $100 million of cash and liquidity. The balance sheet is extremely clean. There's no problem loans and again, is in great shape. While we continue to wait for the opportunity to transform the company, we'll continue to pay the dividend.

目前公司現金與流動性略低於 1 億美元。資產負債表非常乾淨，沒有問題貸款，整體狀況非常好。在我們持續等待能夠改造公司的機會之際，我們也會持續發放股利。

From an optionality standpoint, at some point, it's likely if we can we need to grow the vehicle, quite frankly, from an overall capital standpoint. If we can we'll be looking at different opportunities in the M&A world. And at some point, we may consider even buying back a little bit of stock here.

從選擇權（optionalities）的角度來看，坦白說，某個時間點我們很可能需要在整體資本規模上把這個載體做大。如果可以的話，我們會在併購（M&A）領域尋找不同機會。而在某個時間點，我們也可能考慮回購一些股票。

With that, I'll refer to the supplement that we posted online, I'm going to start on page 3. And again, this is just really the summary of what Rithm is, Rithm Property Trust. Today, the pipeline is, give or take, about $2 billion. It's always fairly robust. We're looking at large opportunities in the multifamily space. We also evaluate things that we could potentially do around our Genesis business, where we continue to grow our multifamily lending there.

接下來我會參考我們已在網路上發布的補充資料，我將從第 3 頁開始。這一頁主要是 Rithm（Rithm Property Trust）的摘要。今天的案源管線（pipeline）約為 20 億美元上下，一直都相當充足。我們正在多戶住宅（multifamily）領域尋找大型機會。我們也評估圍繞 Genesis 業務可能進行的事項，因為我們在那裡持續擴大多戶住宅放款。

The equity is a little bit under $300 million. It's about $287 million. The commercial real estate portfolio this is all post '24 vintage things that we've done is $236 million, and we have, give or take, a little bit under $100 million of cash and liquidity when you look at the financial highlights for the quarter, quite frankly, not a lot of activity. We sold down a little bit of -- we sold a few CRE floaters in the quarter to create a little liquidity, looking for better opportunities, quite frankly, to increase earnings.

股東權益略低於 3 億美元，約為 2.87 億美元。商用不動產投資組合（這些都是 2024 年之後批次、也就是我們所做的投資）為 2.36 億美元；而現金與流動性約略低於 1 億美元。就本季財務重點而言，坦白說活動不多。我們在本季賣出了一小部分——賣掉了幾筆 CRE 浮動利率資產，以創造一些流動性，並尋找更好的機會，坦白說是為了提高獲利。

As I pointed out in my opening remarks, the credit markets have continued to perform well. The CMBS markets performed well. But while saying that, we'll continue to monitor opportunities to turn over the portfolio and deploy capital and higher-yielding assets. GAAP income, negative $3.2 million or $0.42 per diluted share. Keep in mind, we did a reverse split. I think it was in Q4.

如我在開場所提到的，信貸市場持續表現良好。CMBS 市場也表現不錯。不過即便如此，我們仍會持續監控輪替投資組合並將資本部署到更高收益資產的機會。GAAP 淨利為 -320 萬美元，或每股稀釋後 -0.42 美元。請記得我們做過反向分割（reverse split），我記得是在第四季。

Earnings available for distribution a negative $300,000 or $0.04 per diluted share. Again, not a lot of activity, a lot of this relates to either the G&A or the dividend paid. Dividend paid in the quarter, $0.36 per diluted share, which correlates to about a 10.8% dividend yield based on where the equity is trade today. Book value $236.2 million or $30.86. And then as I pointed out cash and liquidity a little under $100 million.

可供分配盈餘（Earnings available for distribution）為 -30 萬美元，或每股稀釋後 -0.04 美元。同樣地，活動不多，其中多數與一般及行政費用（G&A）或已支付股利有關。本季每股稀釋後股利為 0.36 美元，按目前股價計算約相當於 10.8% 的股利殖利率。帳面價值為 2.362 億美元或 30.86 美元。另如我所提，現金與流動性略低於 1 億美元。

When you look at RPT, I mentioned again earlier, the strategic transformation again, going back to when we took over this vehicle, we cut G&A dramatically. We cleaned up the balance sheet. We sold down a lot of the residential portfolio where we could, and I'll talk a little bit about the equity that's remaining in the book.

談到 RPT，我先前也再次提到策略轉型：回到我們接手這個載體的時點，我們大幅削減 G&A。我們整理了資產負債表。我們在可行的情況下賣出了大量住宅投資組合；我也會稍後談談帳上仍剩餘的股權部位。

We've made some new CRE investments, and that was mostly done in floating rate, AAA CMBS, we made a few loans on the on the debt side, we deployed $50 million in equity alongside rhythm in the Paramount transaction, which we closed in December of '25. We continue to renegotiate our repo agreements, and we continue to improve liquidity.

我們也做了一些新的 CRE 投資，主要是浮動利率、AAA 級 CMBS；在債務端我們也做了幾筆貸款。我們在 Paramount 交易中與 Rithm 一同投入了 5,000 萬美元股權，該交易於 2025 年 12 月完成交割。我們持續重新協商回購協議（repo agreements），並持續改善流動性。

So overall, the company is in, what I would say, as much as there's no, very little activity in great shape and we look for an opportunity to deploy capital or create more capital, quite frankly, on something that's going to be a game changer.

整體而言，公司我認為狀況非常好；儘管活動很少或幾乎沒有。我們正在尋找部署資本的機會，或坦白說，尋找能創造更多資本的方式，去做一件能帶來重大改變的事。

I'd like to go back and refer to what [Flex] don't do with BXMT many years ago of what we did with Rithm, which was going back to 2013, where we started that with $1 billion of capital. And today, the company has about $8 billion of capital. So we need to be patient here. As I pointed out, we'll continue to pay the dividend. At some point, we need to they can move it either clean up the vehicle or figure out a way to grow. And obviously, we're actively trying to grow the vehicle.

我想回頭提一下多年前 [Flex] 對 BXMT 所做的事，以及我們對 Rithm 所做的事：回到 2013 年，我們以 10 億美元資本起步，而今天公司資本約為 80 億美元。所以我們在這裡需要保持耐心。如我所說，我們會持續發放股利。某個時間點，我們需要——要嘛把這個載體整理乾淨，要嘛想辦法成長；而我們顯然正積極嘗試讓這個載體成長。

When you look at page 6, the repositioning of the portfolio, where we can go here, I pointed out on the Genesis side, we're doing more lending in the multifamily space, there could be some opportunities to work together with that company. We continue to look for opportunities to put out capital in the debt markets on the CRE side, and then we'll continue to evaluate opportunistic investments and figure out different ways that we can increase shareholder value.

看第 6 頁，關於投資組合的重新定位以及我們可以往哪裡走：我提到在 Genesis 端，我們在多戶住宅領域做更多放款，可能會有一些與該公司合作的機會。我們也持續在 CRE 端的債務市場尋找投放資本的機會；同時我們會持續評估機會型投資，並找出不同方式來提升股東價值。

And then on page 7, it really just talks about how Rithm Property Trust benefits from the overall Rithm ecosystem, and that includes the Paramount transaction that we closed in December. And then our asset management business is culture and resin.

再看第 7 頁，主要是在說 Rithm Property Trust 如何受益於整體 Rithm 生態系，這包括我們在 12 月完成交割的 Paramount 交易。然後我們的資產管理業務是 culture 和 resin。

So with that, I'll turn it back to the operator, we could open up for Q&A and then get with our beautiful Friday.

那麼，我把電話交回給接線員，我們可以開放問答，然後迎接我們美好的週五。

(Operator Instructions)

（接線員指示）

Craig Kucera, Lucid Capital Markets.

Craig Kucera，Lucid Capital Markets。

Yeah, hey. Good morning, guys. Optically, it looks like the strategy this quarter was to reduce your CMBS holdings and deleverage are you expecting to lever back up in the near term by investing in other asset classes such as loans to genesis? Or should we expect leverage to be a little bit diminished for the near term?

是的，嗨。各位早安。從表面上看，本季策略似乎是降低你們的 CMBS 持有部位並去槓桿。你們是否預期在短期內會透過投資其他資產類別（例如對 Genesis 的貸款）來重新加槓桿？還是我們應該預期短期內槓桿會維持在較低水準？

Yeah. We looked during the quarter, the market felt -- despite performing well, the markets fell or the world feels horrible. So when you think about that in credit spreads and we saw a yield gap a little bit wider, but then it came in about 50 basis points to where it is today. So we use that as an opportunity to say, if the world doesn't feel as good, let's sell down some of our, what I would call, levered AAA CMBS which is yielding, give or take, about 10% with the thought as we might be able to deploy more capital and higher-yielding assets.

是的。我們在本季觀察到，市場雖然表現良好，但市場感覺——儘管表現不錯，市場下跌，或整個世界讓人感覺很糟。所以當你把這點放到信用利差來看，我們看到殖利率利差（yield gap）稍微變寬，但之後又收斂了大約 50 個基點，回到今天的水準。因此我們把這當作一個機會：如果世界感覺沒那麼好，那就先賣掉一些我們所謂的、加槓桿的 AAA CMBS（其殖利率約在 10% 左右），因為我們認為之後可能有機會把更多資本部署到收益更高的資產上。

Quite frankly -- we at this point, we'll continue to sit on the cash and look for those opportunities. I mentioned in my opening remarks kind of a large portfolio now of multifamily assets that will be coming at some point in May. And we're seeing some opportunities on the debt side, quite frankly, that I think we'll be able to deploy capital at higher yields than where we are on some of the AAA CMBS.

坦白說——就目前而言，我們會繼續把現金留在手上，並尋找那些機會。我在開場致詞中提到，現在有一個相當大的多戶型資產組合，預計在 5 月的某個時間會釋出。我們也確實在債務端看到一些機會，我認為我們能以比目前部分 AAA 級 CMBS 更高的殖利率來部署資本。

But for now, it wasn't really just to reduce leverage. It was to create more capital for what I would call opportunistic investing. But at some point, that capital get redeployed where that goes back into a debt some kind of lending, multifamily or even buying back some equity here.

但就目前來說，這並不完全只是為了降低槓桿，而是為了創造更多我所稱的機會型投資資本。不過在某個時間點，這些資本會再部署，可能回到某種債務端的放款、多戶型，甚至在這裡回購一些股權。

Got it. And I guess if the market or at least how you feel about the world continues to be sort of miserable do you think you'll continue to harvest proceeds from CMBS? Or do you think you kind of work out what you want to.

了解。我想如果市場、或至少你對整體世界的感受，仍然持續有點低迷，你覺得你們會繼續從 CMBS 變現收回資金嗎？還是你們會把想做的事情大致做完？

It's a really -- we're in a really interesting period of time, right? But when you read the headlines or you think about the headlines, there's been a lot of negativity around private credit, yet you look at a lot of firms that are in the PE business, and they're still sitting on a lot of these portfolios that go back many, many years. You look at the equity markets were at all-time highs. So if you think about private credit, private credit sits on top of equity. So what's going to go first, the equity. So when you look at the public markets, in general, the markets feel -- as much as the world feels terrible, the markets are performing extremely well.

這真的是——我們正處在一個非常有意思的時期，對吧？但當你看新聞標題或想到那些標題時，私募信貸周邊有很多負面情緒；然而你再看看很多做私募股權（PE）的公司，他們手上仍然持有許多可追溯到很多很多年前的投資組合。再看股市，仍在歷史高點。如果你思考私募信貸，私募信貸是位在股權之上（資本結構更優先）。那麼會先出問題的是什麼？是股權。所以當你看公開市場，整體而言，儘管世界感覺很糟，但市場表現其實非常好。

We look across RMBS, you look across CMBS, you look at the liquidity that we're seeing in all these different lending markets, things are actually okay. The geopolitical side just feels horrible though. Obviously, there's a lot of headline risk coming out of the administration in other places. But -- so I think we're just looking for better opportunities to actually create more earnings.

我們看 RMBS、看 CMBS，再看我們在各種不同放款市場看到的流動性，其實狀況都還可以。只是地緣政治面真的讓人感覺很糟。顯然，政府以及其他地方都有很多頭條風險。不過——所以我認為我們只是想找更好的機會，實際上去創造更多獲利。

Got it. Changing gears, there was a pretty decent pickup in professional fees this quarter. Was that more just a time event or you -- should we expect to see something similar going forward?

了解。換個話題，這一季專業服務費用有相當明顯的增加。那比較像是一次性的時間點事件，還是——未來我們應該預期會看到類似的情況？

That was a one-time event in the quarter. It had to do with us looking at various capital options.

那是本季的一次性事件，與我們評估各種資本選項有關。

Okay. Fair enough. And this quarter, you closed on the Paramount transaction in the fourth quarter and at the Rithm parents and, of course, Rithm property put in $50 million. Was there any impact to the income statement this quarter from Paramount?

好的，合理。另外這一季，你們在第四季完成了 Paramount 交易的交割，而在 Rithm 母公司這邊，當然 Rithm Property 投入了 5,000 萬美元。這一季的損益表有沒有受到 Paramount 的任何影響？

Paramount for the quarter was essentially flat.

Paramount 這一季基本上是持平。

Okay. That's helpful. Will that ramp up at any point? Or should we expect that to be really more of a back loaded type of investment?

好的，這很有幫助。那之後會在某個時間點拉升嗎？還是我們應該預期這會更像是一個後段貢獻較多的投資？

No. It will ramp up as the investment continues to accrete and as we make progress on Paramount.

不會。隨著投資持續增厚（accrete），以及我們在 Paramount 上取得進展，它會逐步拉升。

Just a little color on that. When we took -- when we closed the company, I believe we closed the transaction on December 20. So we've had really just a quarter of working on that. We've taken G&A from $65 million down to about $30 million. The performance -- the lease-up activities is, at the highest levels we've seen in 20-plus years.

補充一點背景。我們在——我們完成公司交割時，我記得交易是在 12 月 20 日完成的。所以我們實際上只做了一季左右的工作。我們已把 G&A 從 6,500 萬美元降到大約 3,000 萬美元。營運表現——出租去化（lease-up）活動，達到我們 20 多年來看到的最高水準。

When you look at the properties, you have New York and San Francisco, we're in the middle of doing a few refinancings. We have some potential JV equity investments. So we're excited about that. We've had a ton of conversations with different LPs. The initial thought there was it's an opportunistic situation. But around that, we're going to raise capital either from third parties or just bringing JV partners with the intent of trying to make 2x and 20%-plus on our money.

當你看這些資產，包含紐約與舊金山，我們正在進行幾筆再融資。我們也有一些潛在的 JV 股權投資。所以我們對此很興奮。我們已和不同的 LP 進行了大量對話。最初的想法是這是一個機會型情境。但在此基礎上，我們會募資——要嘛向第三方募資，要嘛引入 JV 夥伴——目標是希望在我們的資金上做到 2 倍回報以及 20% 以上的報酬率。

So some of it will be back ended. Some of it will be, as to Nick's point, as we accrete up over time, but that hopefully should be a good one. If you look at our New York portfolio, it's -- for the most part, it's essentially leased up. So things are good on that one.

所以其中一部分會在後段實現；另一部分會如 Nick 所說，隨著時間推移逐步增厚，但希望這會是一筆不錯的投資。若你看我們的紐約資產組合——大致上幾乎都已出租完成。所以那邊的狀況很好。

Okay, great. That's it from me. Thank you.

好的，很棒。我這邊就到這裡。謝謝。

Jason Stewart, Compass Point.

Jason Stewart，Compass Point。

Hi. Thanks, Michael. On the Genesis loans, are those likely to be more portfolio-based or chunky? Or is there an opportunity for flow? And then a follow-up on Craig's liquidity questions. Is there an opportunity to do anything with the unsecured debt, just given how much liquidity is on the balance sheet?

嗨，謝謝你，Michael。關於 Genesis 貸款，那些比較可能是以投資組合為主、或是單筆較大的案子？還是有機會形成持續性的流量（flow）？另外延伸 Craig 關於流動性的問題：考量資產負債表上有這麼多流動性，對無擔保債務有沒有什麼操作空間？

So the unsecured debt, I believe, is like a 9% and 7%, 8% kind of coupon. If we get -- if we could get the company rated a little better. That drops to 8% and 7%, 8%. When you think about that in the debt markets for this type of company, it's not a horrible cost of capital. Obviously, we want to make it more accretive and make sure the investments are more accretive thus selling down some of the CMBS and looking for an opportunity to deploy and higher-yielding assets.

無擔保債務方面，我記得票息大概是 9% 以及 7%、8% 這種水準。如果我們——如果能讓公司的評等再好一些，那可能會降到 8% 以及 7%、8%。以這類型公司的債務市場來看，這不算是很糟的資金成本。當然，我們希望讓它更具增厚性（accretive），並確保投資更具增厚性，因此才會賣出部分 CMBS，並尋找機會把資金部署到更高殖利率的資產上。

When we think about Genesis on the Genesis side, we bought this company, I think, in late 20 months, last '22. At that time, they were doing $1.7 billion of production. The company was making $40 million-odd of EBITDA. We've taken that where this year, I think we're going to do something between $6 billion and $7 billion of production and the company should make between $150 million and $200 million of EBITDA. So it's been -- not what it's been a very good successful acquisition, and it's been a great feeder for our business.

至於 Genesis，我們買下這家公司，我想是在 2022 年底、距今大概 20 個月前。當時他們的產出（production）是 17 億美元，公司大約有 4,000 萬美元左右的 EBITDA。我們把它提升到今年，我想產出會在 60 億到 70 億美元之間，而公司 EBITDA 應該會在 1.5 億到 2 億美元之間。所以——這是一筆非常成功的收購，也成為我們業務很好的供給來源（feeder）。

From Genesis, we've established a couple of things. One is we have a non-traded REIT, we launched with one of the large money center banks where we're actually raising capital alongside some of the production that comes out of Genesis. That's gone extremely well.

透過 Genesis，我們建立了幾件事。第一，我們與一家大型貨幣中心銀行合作推出了一檔非交易型 REIT，我們實際上是在 Genesis 產出的一部分業務旁邊同步募資。進展非常順利。

We've also done a large SMA around some of the Genesis flow with one of the sovereigns overseas. So when we look at what we've done there, that's been a great one. Now where you're actually looking at, is there a way to take these assets in the securitization market, quite frankly, that could be north of 20% or 15% to 20%.

我們也與一家海外主權機構，針對部分 Genesis 的流量做了一個大型 SMA（分離管理帳戶）。所以回頭看我們在那邊做的事情，效果非常好。現在你真正關心的是：是否有辦法把這些資產放到證券化市場，坦白說，報酬可能可以到 20% 以上，或 15% 到 20%。

Can we actually use this vehicle to either around multifamily or some of the other stuff that's not going into these flow programs to actually grow earnings at RPT. So that's something that we're extremely focused on. Hopefully, we get there and that business continues to grow. So that's really the thought around the Genesis side.

我們能否利用這個載體，不論是多戶型或其他沒有進入這些流量型方案的業務，來實際推動 RPT 的獲利成長。這是我們非常聚焦的方向。希望我們能做到，且那塊業務能持續成長。這就是我們對 Genesis 這邊的整體想法。

Got it. Okay, thank you.

了解。好的，謝謝。

Henry Coffey, Wedbush Securities.

Henry Coffey，Wedbush Securities。

Good morning. Obviously, actually a lot of progress in here and you cut your losses. And if we go with Nick's comments, we're almost at the point of breakeven on an EAD basis. If you -- things -- the environment or the political environment is bad, but it's probably not going to get worse. And -- so it's fair to say that the debt and credit markets, whatever they are, aren't going to get worse.

早安。顯然這裡面其實有很多進展，而且你們也止損了。如果依 Nick 的說法，以 EAD 基礎來看，我們幾乎已接近損益兩平。若你——環境——或政治環境很糟，但大概也不太可能更糟。而且——所以可以說債務與信貸市場，不管它們目前是什麼狀態，應該也不會更差。

And is -- what's the holdup in terms of deploying assets? Are there like opportunities like you said that don't show up until May? Are there enough opportunities out there where you could if you wanted to push hard, leverage this thing up now. What is sort of the overall temper the market right now in terms of opportunities?

那在資產部署方面的卡點是什麼？是像你說的那樣，機會要到 5 月才會出現嗎？市場上是否有足夠的機會，讓你們如果想要更積極，現在就把槓桿拉上去？目前市場在機會面上的整體氛圍大概是什麼？

This vehicle on a relative basis, Henry is extremely small. We need to create a large pool of capital to make a difference in the earnings and profile of the company as we go forward. And I think to your point on the equity or the debt and credit markets, there's a ton of capital still out there in the markets being deployed. When you look at all the headline risk, and you've heard some of the other folks have run some of the larger asset managers on their -- the real headlines around the private credit stuff were really the redemptions that came about from retail.

Henry，這個載體相對而言規模非常小。要對公司未來的獲利與輪廓產生影響，我們需要建立一個更大的資本池。我想你提到股權或債務與信貸市場的觀點也對——市場上仍有大量資本在部署。當你看所有的頭條風險，而且你也聽到一些經營大型資產管理公司的同業提到——私募信貸真正的頭條，其實主要是來自零售端的贖回。

Anybody that has institutional money, those are typically going to be in longer-dated locked-up funds. So that's not really the problem in what I would say the credit markets. So if somebody comes out and -- I use this example, I was in Asia last week speaking. If you look, most of these documents have, I'll call it, redemption limits for a specific reason to the extent that retail comes in and they want -- and you've seen folks want 10% or 15% out of some of their -- at some of these funds.

任何擁有機構資金的，通常都會在期限較長、且有鎖定期的基金裡。所以我認為在信貸市場裡，那並不是主要問題。所以如果有人出來——我舉個例子，我上週在亞洲演講。如果你看，大多數這些文件都會因特定原因設有我所稱的贖回上限，以防零售資金進來後想要——而你也看到有人想從某些基金中贖回 10% 或 15%。

A lot of the funds have 5% limits, and they have 5% limits for a reason because you don't want to just liquidate good assets for the sake of liquidating because retail needs the money back. So I think my whole view on this is that on the private credit markets, it's really an education process. How do people -- how does a private wealth client buy into a private debt fund or private credit fund, making sure they understand really what the liquidity functions are. Because what you're seeing in the markets these days, there's been a lot of demand for evergreen type funds.

很多基金都有 5% 的限制，而且之所以設有 5% 的限制是有原因的，因為你不希望只是為了變現而把優質資產賣掉，僅僅因為零售端需要把錢拿回去。所以我對這件事的整體看法是，在私募信貸市場，這其實是一個教育的過程。人們——私募財富客戶要如何投資私募債務基金或私募信貸基金，並確保他們真正理解流動性機制是什麼。因為你現在在市場上看到的是，對常青型（evergreen）基金的需求一直很大。

We have an evergreen type fund out there, I mentioned on the Genesis stuff. And you just have to make sure there's an ample amount of liquidity. Now it's a very different thing, I think, when you have assets that are secured by or cash flow that's secured by assets is what we do in Genesis and really in the so-called ABF space. But the gist of it is around the private credit markets is that you're not seeing a lot of selling. We're seeing more capital that continues to get deployed. And you haven't seen this huge gap in spreads.

我們有一檔常青型基金，我在 Genesis 的部分提過。你必須確保有充足的流動性。現在我認為，當你的資產是由資產擔保，或現金流是由資產所支撐——這正是我們在 Genesis 以及所謂 ABF 領域所做的事情——那就是非常不同的情況。但私募信貸市場的重點在於，你並沒有看到大量拋售。我們看到的是更多資金持續被投入。而且你也沒有看到利差出現這種巨大的缺口。

So overall, when you think about where we are there are going to be opportunities, but we haven't -- we wanted to create a little liquidity during the quarter in the event that we could deploy at a much higher level. And quite frankly, we just haven't seen it come to fruition. I pointed out on the multifamily stuff that it's a reasonable side of the deal that we're actually looking at. Rithm Property Trust cannot do the entire thing just to be clear.

所以整體而言，當你思考我們目前所處的位置，未來會有機會，但我們——我們希望在本季稍微創造一些流動性，以防我們能以更高的水準去部署資金。坦白說，我們就是還沒有看到這件事真正發生。我在多戶住宅（multifamily）的部分指出，我們實際在看的交易規模是合理的。為了說清楚，Rithm Property Trust 不可能把整筆交易全部吃下來。

So that it could be a combination of third-party capital, Rithm Property Trust and Rithm. And again, that's similar to what the way a lot of these other larger asset managers have grown their business where they're using different capital vehicles and funds to share in the, I'll call it, in the wealth of a great investment.

所以它可能會是第三方資金、Rithm Property Trust 以及 Rithm 的組合。再一次，這也類似於許多其他大型資產管理公司成長業務的方式——他們使用不同的資本載體與基金，一起分享我稱之為優質投資所帶來的「成果」。

On the capital side, this is -- there's a funny caging joke that I'll share with [Ken] later on. But is kind of a chicken or thing. And it seems we have a lot of confidence in you as investors. And there seems to be a point where you just have to kind of do it except maybe some near-term dilution and then get on with the business of growing RPT into a bigger business. What does that pain threshold look like for you?

在資本面上——我之後會跟 [Ken] 分享一個有趣的「caging」笑話。但這有點像先有雞還是先有蛋的問題。看起來我們對你們作為投資人很有信心。也似乎到了某個點，你就得做了，即便可能會有一些短期稀釋，然後就繼續把 RPT 做大、把業務做起來。對你而言，這個痛感門檻大概是什麼樣子？

I think as long as we think that we could do something that's accretive longer term for shareholders, we'll do it. I mean I think the whole notion of the REIT business when you think about it logically, where reach trade relative to asset management companies, and it's effectively the same thing. The only difference is I look at Rithm, our bigger company, obviously, we're trading, give or take, 5 times EBITDA.

我認為只要我們覺得長期來看能為股東帶來增益（accretive），我們就會做。我的意思是，當你用邏輯去看 REIT 這門生意，看看 REIT 相對於資產管理公司的交易估值，其實本質上是同一件事。唯一的差別是，我看 Rithm——我們更大的公司——很明顯地，我們的交易估值大概是 5 倍 EBITDA，上下浮動一些。

If you look at some of the larger asset managers, they could trade any from 10 to 30 times. So the whole the whole arbitrage, if there is an arbitrage is to continue to create asset management vehicles where you can turn them from 5 times to 10 times. In the case of Rithm, if we did something like that, the stock to $20 to $30 stock, and it trades at, give or take, $10.

如果你看一些更大型的資產管理公司，它們的估值可能是 10 到 30 倍。所以整個——如果真的存在套利空間——就是持續打造資產管理載體，讓它們的估值從 5 倍變成 10 倍。以 Rithm 來說，如果我們做到了那樣的事情，股價可能會是 20 到 30 美元的股票，但它現在大概交易在 10 美元左右。

If you look at Rithm Property Trust, we need to raise pools of capital. We've been very good and disciplined around maintaining book value in all of our REIT vehicles because I think we're we have a lot of expertise around the house. We've been doing this for 30-plus years or whatever it is. And from a market perspective, we're typically -- we have a reasonable view from a macro level. As it relates to this vehicle to the extent that we can raise a large pool of capital and then it gets deployed accretively and all of a sudden earnings start moving, we'll do it in a heartbeat.

如果你看 Rithm Property Trust，我們需要募集資金池。我們在維持所有 REIT 載體的帳面價值（book value）方面一直非常出色且自律，因為我認為我們公司內部有很多專業能力。我們做這個已經 30 多年了，不管具體是多少年。從市場角度來看，我們通常——在宏觀層面上有相當合理的判斷。就這個載體而言，只要我們能募集到一大筆資金池，然後以增益方式部署出去，接著獲利開始上行，我們會毫不猶豫地去做。

I mean the stocks at half a book value issuing stock here would be painful, but maybe also the recognition that the market's not really getting it and maybe the pain from issuing stock at this level would only be temporary. And I'm just kind of (inaudible)

我的意思是，股票現在在帳面價值的一半，這時候發行股票會很痛，但也可能需要承認市場其實沒有真正理解，而在這個價位發股的痛感也許只是暫時的。我只是有點（聽不清）

But you need to do it around an accretive transaction, it's not just to raise capital is what I would say. So if there's something that's hugely accretive, then we'll come back into market, and we'll work with our investor base, and we'll work with our capital formation groups and our banks and we'll try to get something done. Somebody -- I think it was either Craig or Jason asked about the onetime charge, that was part of what we were working on in the quarter is to figure out [how to raise a pool] of capital.

但你必須圍繞一筆具增益性的交易來做，而不是只是為了募資——這是我要說的。所以如果有某個交易是高度增益的，那我們就會回到市場上，與我們的投資人基礎合作，與我們的資本募集團隊以及銀行合作，並嘗試把事情做成。有人——我想是 Craig 或 Jason——問到一次性費用（onetime charge），那是我們本季在做的工作之一：弄清楚[如何募集一個資金池]。

All right, thank you. Lots of progress here.

好，謝謝。這裡進展很多。

Jade Rahmani, KBW.

Jade Rahmani，KBW。

Thank you very much. The commercial mortgage REIT sector has been under pressure for several years and there only seems to be a few companies successfully emerging from the theory downturn in values and credit with scale being a big differentiator. There's been one interesting deal in the space, which is the ARI sale to Athene of its entire loan portfolio and at the same time, we're seeing real estate transaction activity pick up and LP investors start to increase their real estate allocations. So I wanted to ask if you're seeing any change in engagement from perhaps public commercial mortgage REITs, the smaller ones or otherwise private vehicles about potential combination scenarios?

非常感謝。商用房貸 REIT（commercial mortgage REIT）板塊已經承壓好幾年了，而且看起來只有少數公司能成功從這一輪價值與信用的下行中走出來，而規模是很大的差異化因素。這個領域有一筆有趣的交易，就是 ARI 將其全部貸款投資組合出售給 Athene；同時，我們也看到不動產交易活動回升，LP 投資人開始提高其不動產配置。所以我想問的是，你們是否看到來自可能是上市商用房貸 REIT（較小的那些）或其他私募載體，在潛在合併情境方面的互動/接觸有任何變化？

Yeah. I mean I think one of the things that we've been very good at over the years is to try to differentiate ourselves from others. And look at what we've done in the mortgage space is we've built -- it goes back to the Fortress days. We built Mr. Cooper, which is now owned by Rocket. We built OneMain, which is now public market. We have sold down the equity to Apollo and when I was at Fortress. We built new rigs from nothing, and that company is great. We built Genesis -- or I helped grow Genesis Capital.

是的。我的意思是，我認為多年來我們做得很好的一件事，就是努力讓自己與其他人區隔開來。看看我們在房貸領域做過的事情——這可以追溯到 Fortress 時期。我們打造了 Mr. Cooper，現在由 Rocket 持有。我們打造了 OneMain，現在在公開市場上市。我在 Fortress 的時候，我們把股權出售給 Apollo。我们從零開始打造了 NewRez，那家公司很棒。我們打造了 Genesis——或者說我協助把 Genesis Capital 做大。

So we've been very -- what I would say is we've been pretty acquisitive, which has enabled us to grow our business. We'll continue to look at M&A, particularly in the world that you point out. It's not easy getting folks the combination side when you talk about what I would call a lot of broken REITs. This REIT is not broken. This balance sheet is crystal clean.

所以我們一直——我會說我們相當積極做併購（acquisitive），這讓我們能夠擴大業務。我們會持續關注併購，尤其是在你所指出的這個領域。當你談到我所謂很多「壞掉的 REIT」時，要讓大家在合併這一端達成共識並不容易。這個 REIT 並沒有壞。這張資產負債表非常乾淨。

There's when I look at the equity, just to give you a sense, there is give or take about $100-ish million of equity that's tied up in residential deals that are marked extremely well. that are their reperforming loan deals that were created by the prior management team at what was known then as great Ajax.

當我看股權時，給你一個概念，大概有 1 億美元左右的股權被放在住宅相關交易裡，而且估值標記得非常好。那是由前任管理團隊在當時稱為 Great Ajax 的時候所建立的再履約貸款（reperforming loan）交易。

So when I look at what where we want to go with this and I think about the overall REIT space, we'd love to do combinations with folks. We want to grow it. I will tell you, the Paramount transaction has opened up the door as a firm for us. We probably had hundreds of conversations with LPs and different folks about -- and that's on the private side, obviously, in the public -- in different real estate activities or real transactions, that will continue. So I think that's been a really good one.

所以當我思考我們想把它帶往哪裡，以及我思考整體 REIT 領域時，我們很樂意與其他人做組合/合併。我們想把它做大。我可以告訴你，Paramount 這筆交易作為一家機構，為我們打開了大門。我們可能和 LP 以及不同的人進行了數百次對話——那當然是在私募端；在公開端——在不同的不動產活動或實體交易中，這種互動也會持續。所以我認為那是一筆非常好的交易。

Our asset management business at scope, they raised $4.6 billion on their last fund, and they're extremely active in the real estate space. So getting these smaller deals -- everybody wants to a deal, or we want to do deals. Not everybody wants to give their business quite frankly, and something that's underperforming. I mean it's that simple. Should -- these smaller businesses are very, very difficult to have them exist and to try to grow because you need the capital to grow it.

我們的資產管理業務 Scope，在上一支基金募集了 46 億美元，而且他們在不動產領域非常活躍。所以要拿下這些較小的交易——每個人都想要一筆交易，或者我們想做交易。但坦白說，不是每個人都願意交出他們的業務，尤其是表現不佳的業務。就是這麼簡單。這些較小的業務要生存並嘗試成長非常、非常困難，因為你需要資本才能讓它成長。

So my long-winded answer is we're always actively looking to do M&A around this, and I think you're going to see more M&A in this. But our balance sheet is crystal clear, right? Crystal clean. We're very, very different than I think some of the other legacy REITs that have, quite frankly, suffered a little bit here based on some of the earlier vintage lending that's occurred.

所以我這個冗長的回答是：我們一直都在積極尋找在這方面做併購的機會，而且我認為你會看到更多併購。但我們的資產負債表非常清楚，對吧？非常乾淨。我們和一些其他的傳統 REIT 非常不同；那些 REIT 坦白說，因為早期年份（earlier vintage）的放貸所造成的一些影響，最近吃了點苦頭。

Thanks very much.

非常感謝。

There are no further questions at this time. I will now turn the call back over to Michael Nierenberg for closing remarks.

目前沒有進一步的問題。我現在把電話交回給 Michael Nierenberg 作結語。

Thanks so much for your questions. Have a great weekend and look forward to updating you throughout the quarter.

非常感謝各位的提問。祝各位週末愉快，也期待在本季期間持續向各位更新。

Ladies and gentlemen, that concludes today's call. Thank you all for joining. You may now disconnect.

各位女士、先生，今天的電話會議到此結束。感謝各位參與。您現在可以掛線。