PennyMac Mortgage Investment Trust (PMT) 2024 Q4 法說會逐字稿

Good afternoon, and welcome to PennyMac Mortgage Investment Trust fourth-quarter and full-year 2024 earnings call. Additional earnings materials, including the presentation slides that will be referred to in this call are available on PennyMac Mortgage Investment Trust website at pmt.pennymac.com.

下午好，歡迎參加 PennyMac Mortgage Investment Trust 2024 年第四季和全年財報電話會議。其他收益資料（包括本次電話會議中提及的簡報投影片）可在 PennyMac Mortgage Investment Trust 網站 pmt.pennymac.com 上取得。

Before we begin, let me remind you that this call may contain forward-looking statements that are subject to certain risks identified on slide 2 of the earnings presentation that could cause the company's actual results to differ materially, as well as non-GAAP measures that have filed their GAAP equivalent to the earnings materials.

在我們開始之前，讓我提醒您，本次電話會議可能包含前瞻性陳述，這些陳述受收益報告第 2 頁中確定的某些風險的影響，這些風險可能導致公司的實際結果出現重大差異，以及已提交與收益材料等同的 GAAP 的非 GAAP 指標。

Now, I'd like to introduce David Spector PennyMac Mortgage Investment Trust's Chairman and Chief Executive Officer; and Dan Perotti, PennyMac Mortgage Investment Trust's Chief Financial Officer. You may begin.

現在，我想介紹 PennyMac Mortgage Investment Trust 的董事長兼執行長 David Spector；以及 PennyMac Mortgage Investment Trust 的財務長 Dan Perotti。你可以開始了。

Thank you, operator. PMT produced very strong results in the fourth quarter, generating a 10% return on equity, driven by strong levels of income, excluding market-driven value changes and excellent performance across all three investment strategies.

謝謝您，接線生。PMT 在第四季度取得了非常強勁的業績，實現了 10% 的股本回報率，這得益於強勁的收入水平（不包括市場驅動的價值變化）以及三種投資策略的出色表現。

Net income to common shareholders was $36 million or diluted earnings per share of $0.41, and PMT declared a fourth quarter common dividend of $0.40 per share. Book value per share at year-end was $15.87, up from the end of the prior quarter. Importantly, the fourth quarter marked a return to the organic creation of credit investments for PMT, which I will expand on later.

普通股股東淨利為 3,600 萬美元，即每股攤薄收益 0.41 美元，PMT 宣布第四季普通股股息為每股 0.40 美元。年末每股帳面價值為 15.87 美元，高於上一季末。重要的是，第四季度標誌著 PMT 信貸投資有機創造的回歸，稍後我將詳細介紹。

Turning to slide 4, for the full year, PMT produced a return on common equity of 8% with $119 million of net income attributable to common shareholders and income contributions from all three investment strategies. 2024 was a year characterized by significant interest rate volatility as evidenced by the yield on the 10-year treasury, which range from 3.6% to 4.7%.

轉到投影片 4，全年來看，PMT 的普通股報酬率為 8%，歸屬於普通股股東的淨收入為 1.19 億美元，收入貢獻來自所有三種投資策略。 2024 年是利率波動較大的一年，10 年期公債殖利率在 3.6% 至 4.7% 之間就是明證。

Even with this volatility, our dividend remained consistent and book value per share was stable throughout the year as the active hedging of mortgage servicing rights offset the majority of fair value changes in the interest rate-sensitive strategies.

即使存在這種波動，我們的股息仍然保持一致，每股帳面價值全年保持穩定，因為抵押貸款服務權的積極對沖抵消了利率敏感策略中的大部分公允價值變動。

Also, during 2024, we worked on multiple facets of the business to reposition PMT's balance sheet for success in a higher interest rate environment. This included the opportunistic sale of certain investments as credit spreads tightened, a major re-balance of our agency MBS portfolio, and the issuance of $1.3 billion in term debt to address and extend upcoming maturities, generally a tighter financing spreads.

此外，在 2024 年，我們致力於業務的多個方面，重新定位 PMT 的資產負債表，以便在更高的利率環境下取得成功。其中包括在信用利差收緊時趁機出售某些投資，對我們的機構MBS投資組合進行重大重新平衡，以及發行13億美元定期債務以解決和延長即將到期的債務，總體而言是收緊融資利差。

We also renewed PMT's mortgage banking agreement with our manager, an industry leader, PFSI, solidify this unique synergistic partnership between the two companies for another half a decade. All of these activities position PMT with a very strong foundation as we enter 2025.

我們也與我們的管理公司、產業領導者 PFSI 續簽了 PMT 的抵押銀行協議，鞏固了兩家公司在未來五年內這種獨特的協同夥伴關係。所有這些活動都將為 PMT 在邁入 2025 年時奠定堅實的基礎。

Turning to the origination market, current third-party estimates for total originations in 2025 averaged $2 trillion, reflecting growth in overall volumes. Though mortgage rates are back up into the 7% range, we believe ongoing volatility in rates will present opportunities in the origination market from time to time. PMT's stable performance in recent periods of heightened volatility highlights the strength of the fundamentals underlying its long-term mortgage assets and our expertise managing mortgage-related investments in its changing environment.

談到發起市場，目前第三方估計2025年的總發起額平均為2兆美元，反映了整體規模的成長。儘管抵押貸款利率已回升至 7% 左右，但我們認為，利率的持續波動將不時為發起市場帶來機會。PMT 在近期波動加劇時期的穩定表現凸顯了其長期抵押資產基本面的強勁，以及我們在不斷變化的環境中管理抵押相關投資的專業知識。

Turning to slide 6, a key competitive advantage throughout PMT's history has been the ability to organically create MSR and credit investments from its own production volumes. We believe that our position as the producer of the underlying loans is a competitive advantage, providing us with an ability to review and diligence the loans selected for securitization and subsequent investment.

轉到投影片 6，PMT 歷史上的一個關鍵競爭優勢是能夠利用自己的生產量有機地創造 MSR 和信貸投資。我們相信，作為基礎貸款的生產者，我們的地位是一種競爭優勢，這使我們能夠審查和盡職調查選定用於證券化和後續投資的貸款。

Additionally, as the servicer of the underlying loans, we are uniquely positioned with the ability to work directly with borrowers in times of stress to minimize losses as evidenced by the strong historical performance of our unique investments in lender credit risk transfer. In recent periods, volume or pricing limits for the GSEs on certain type of loans, such as nonowner-occupied and second homes, coupled with strong investor demand has driven increased private label securitizations of such loans.

此外，作為基礎貸款的服務商，我們具有獨特的優勢，能夠在壓力時期直接與借款人合作，以最大限度地減少損失，我們在貸款人信用風險轉移方面的獨特投資的強勁歷史表現就證明了這一點。最近一段時間，政府支持企業對某些類型貸款（如非自住房屋貸款和第二套房屋貸款）的數量或定價限制，加上投資者的強勁需求，推動了此類貸款的私人標籤證券化不斷增加。

This development has created a renewed opportunity for PMT to organically create credit investments from its own production. We leveraged the strength of our correspondent production franchise and securitization expertise to complete two securitizations of agency-eligible investor loans, where we retained $52 million of new investments in credit subordinate bonds.

這項發展為 PMT 創造了新的機會，使其能夠透過自身生產有機地創造信貸投資。我們利用代理行生產特許經營權和證券化專業知識的優勢，完成了兩次機構合格投資者貸款證券化，其中我們保留了 5,200 萬美元的信用次級債券新投資。

After quarter end, we completed a third securitization of investor loans and thus retain an additional $21 million of new investments in credit subordinate bonds. Return on equity for these investments is expected to be in the low to mid-teens. With a growing pipeline of loans available for private label securitization and a receptive market for these securities, we expect similar levels of activity well into 2025 with the potential for increased investment opportunities through securitization of other loan products such as jumbo loans as the origination market grows.

季度末後，我們完成了第三次投資者貸款證券化，從而保留了額外的 2,100 萬美元信用次級債券新投資。預計這些投資的股本回報率將達到 15% 至 16% 之間。隨著可用於私人標籤證券化的貸款管道不斷增長以及這些證券的接受市場不斷增長，我們預計到 2025 年活動水平將與此類似，並且隨著發起市場的增長，透過證券化其他貸款產品（例如巨額貸款）有可能增加投資機會。

Turning to slide 7, approximately two-thirds of PMT's shareholders' equity is currently invested in a seasoned portfolio of MSRs and the unique GSE lender risk share transactions we invested in from 2015 to 2020. As the majority of mortgages underlying these assets were originated during periods of very low interest rates, we continue to believe these investments will perform well over the foreseeable future as low expected prepayments have extended the expected lives of these assets.

轉到投影片 7，PMT 股東權益中約有三分之二目前投資於成熟的 MSR 投資組合和我們在 2015 年至 2020 年期間投資的獨特的 GSE 貸款人風險份額交易。由於這些資產所依賴的大多數抵押貸款都是在利率極低的時期發放的，我們仍然相信這些投資在可預見的未來將表現良好，因為較低的預期預付款延長了這些資產的預期壽命。

Additionally, delinquencies remain low due to the overall strength of the consumer as well as the substantial accumulation of home equity in recent years due to continued home price appreciation. MSR investments account for approximately half of PMT's deployed equity. The majority of the underlying mortgages of these MSRs remain far out of the money, and we expect the MSR asset to continue to producing stable cash flows over the extended period of time.

此外，由於消費者整體實力強勁以及近年來房價持續上漲導致房屋淨值的大量積累，貸款拖欠率仍然較低。MSR 投資約佔 PMT 已部署股權的一半。這些 MSR 的大部分基礎抵押貸款仍處於價外狀態，我們預計 MSR 資產將在較長時期內繼續產生穩定的現金流。

MSR values also continue to benefit from the higher interest rate environment as the placement fee income PMT receives on custodial balances is closely tied to short-term interest rates. Similarly, mortgages underlying PMT's large investment in lender originated risk share have low delinquencies and a low weighted average current loan to valuation of below 50%.

由於 PMT 從託管餘額中獲得的安置費收入與短期利率密切相關，因此 MSR 價值也繼續受益於更高的利率環境。類似地，PMT 對貸方發起的風險份額進行大量投資所依據的抵押貸款拖欠率較低，加權平均當前貸款與估值比率低於 50%。

These characteristics are expected to support the performance of these assets over the long term, and we continue to expect that realized losses will be limited. Given our expectations for PMT to be a consistent issuer and investor in private label securitization alongside a seasoned portfolio of MSRs and CRT with strong underlying fundamentals, I am confident the company will continue to deliver attractive risk-adjusted returns in 2025 and beyond.

預計這些特徵將在長期內支撐這些資產的表現，我們繼續預計已實現損失將是有限的。鑑於我們預期 PMT 將成為自有品牌證券化的持續發行人和投資者，同時擁有具有強勁基本面的 MSR 和 CRT 成熟投資組合，我相信該公司將在 2025 年及以後繼續提供具有吸引力的風向調整回報。

Now I'll turn it over to Dan, who will review the drivers of PMT's fourth-quarter financial performance and PMT's run rate return potential.

現在我將把話題交給丹，他將回顧 PMT 第四季度財務表現的驅動因素以及 PMT 的運行率回報潛力。

Thank you, David. PMT earned $36 million in net income to common shareholders in the fourth quarter or $0.41 per diluted common share. The credit-sensitive strategies contributed $20 million in pretax income. The contribution from organically created CRT investments was $20 million, while the contribution from opportunistic investments in CAS and stacker bonds was offset by losses on non-agency subordinate MBS due to increasing interest rates and losses on other credit-sensitive strategies.

謝謝你，大衛。PMT 第四季普通股股東淨利 3,600 萬美元，即每股攤薄收益 0.41 美元。信貸敏感型策略貢獻了 2,000 萬美元的稅前收入。有機創建的 CRT 投資貢獻了 2000 萬美元，而 CAS 和堆疊債券的機會性投資貢獻被因利率上升而產生的非機構從屬 MBS 的損失以及其他信貸敏感型策略的損失所抵消。

As David mentioned, the outlook for our current investments in organically created CRT remains favorable, with a low underlying current weighted average loan-to-value ratio below 50% and a 60-day delinquency rate of 1.5%, both as of December 31.

正如 David 所提到的，我們目前對有機創造的 CRT 的投資前景仍然看好，截至 12 月 31 日，當前基礎加權平均貸款價值比率低於 50%，60 天拖欠率為 1.5%。

The interest rate sensitive strategies contributed pretax income of $25 million. Fair value increases on MSR investments were $184 million as the increase in mortgage rates drove a decrease in future prepayment projections. These fair value increases were offset by the combined impact of changes in the fair value of MBS, interest rate hedges and the related income tax effects.

利率敏感策略貢獻了2500萬美元的稅前收入。由於抵押貸款利率上升導致未來預付款預測下降，MSR 投資的公允價值增加了 1.84 億美元。這些公允價值的增加被 MBS 公允價值變動、利率對沖和相關所得稅影響的綜合影響所抵銷。

MBS fair value decreased by $140 million due to the increase in mortgage rates. Interest rate hedges decreased by $51 million. Income from correspondent production and gains on MSRs held in PMT's taxable REIT subsidiary were the primary driver of the $9 million tax expense.

由於抵押貸款利率上升，MBS 公允價值減少了 1.4 億美元。利率對沖減少了5100萬美元。相應的生產收入和 PMT 應稅 REIT 子公司持有的 MSR 收益是 900 萬美元稅費的主要驅動因素。

The fair value of PMT's MSR asset at the end of the quarter was $3.9 billion, up slightly from $3.8 billion at September 30, as fair value gains and newly originated MSR investments were slightly offset by runoff from prepayments. Delinquency rates for borrowers underlying PMT's MSR portfolio remain low, while servicing advances outstanding increased to $105 million from $71 million at September 30, due to seasonal property tax payments.

PMT 本季末的 MSR 資產公允價值為 39 億美元，較 9 月 30 日的 38 億美元略有上升，原因是公允價值收益和新發起的 MSR 投資略微被預付款的流失所抵消。PMT 的 MSR 投資組合的借款人拖欠率仍然很低，而由於季節性財產稅支付，未償還的服務預付款從 9 月 30 日的 7,100 萬美元增加到 1.05 億美元。

No principal and interest advances are currently outstanding. Total correspondent loan acquisition volume was $28 billion in the fourth quarter, up 9% from the prior quarter, driven by the larger overall market. Correspondent loans acquired for PMT's account totaled $3.5 billion, down 41% from the prior quarter due to PMT retaining a smaller percentage of the conventional conforming correspondent loan production.

目前沒有未償還的本金和利息預付款。受整體市場擴大的推動，第四季代理貸款收購總額為 280 億美元，較上一季成長 9%。PMT 帳戶獲得的代理貸款總額為 35 億美元，較上一季下降 41%，原因是 PMT 保留的傳統符合要求的代理貸款產出比例較小。

PMT retained 19% of total conventional correspondent production in the fourth quarter, down from 42% in the third quarter. We expect this percentage to remain between 15% to 25% in the first quarter of 2025 as we continue pursuing investment opportunities in the private label securitization market.

PMT 第四季保留了 19% 的常規天然氣總產量，低於第三季的 42%。我們預計，隨著我們繼續尋求自有品牌證券化市場的投資機會，這一比例在 2025 年第一季將保持在 15% 至 25% 之間。

Income from PMT's Correspondent Production segment was up from last quarter, driven by increased demand for private label securitization and whole loan execution for investor loans during the quarter. The contribution of pretax income related to the strong execution of our private label securitizations in the quarter was approximately $9 million.

PMT 通訊製作部門的營收較上一季有所成長，這得益於本季對自有品牌證券化和投資者貸款整體貸款執行的需求增加。本季我們自有品牌證券化的強勁執行帶來的稅前收入貢獻約為 900 萬美元。

Profitability in the segment in recent periods has also benefited from the release of liabilities related to representations and warranties provided at the time of securitization as the high volumes of loans produced from 2020 to 2022, that's the three-year window for violations with minimal repurchase related losses.

該部門近期的盈利能力也受益於證券化時提供的陳述和保證相關負債的釋放，因為 2020 年至 2022 年產生的貸款量很大，這是違規行為發生且回購相關損失最小的三年窗口期。

The weighted average fulfillment fee rate was 18 basis points down from 19 basis points in the prior quarter. Under the renewed mortgage banking services agreement with PFSI, effective July 1, 2025, correspondent loans will initially be acquired by PFSI. However, PMT will retain the right to purchase up to 100% of nongovernment correspondent production from PFSI.

加權平均履行費率較上一季的 19 個基點下降了 18 個基點。根據與 PFSI 續約的抵押貸款銀行服務協議，該協議自 2025 年 7 月 1 日起生效，代理貸款將首先由 PFSI 收購。不過，PMT 將保留從 PFSI 購買高達 100% 非政府對應產品的權利。

In total, PMT reported $51 million of net income across its strategies, excluding market-driven value changes and the related tax impacts, up from $35 million in the prior quarter, driven primarily by decreased realization of MSR cash flows and correspondent production income.

總體而言，PMT 報告其各項策略的淨收入為 5,100 萬美元（不包括市場驅動的價值變化和相關稅收影響），高於上一季的 3,500 萬美元，這主要由於 MSR 現金流實現減少和相應的生產收入減少。

Looking ahead, slide 8 outlines the run rate return potential expected from PMT's investment strategies over the next four quarters. PMT's current run rate reflects a quarterly average of $0.37 per share, unchanged from the prior quarter. We see slightly increased return potential for the credit-sensitive strategies as short-term interest rates are expected to remain higher for longer.

展望未來，第 8 頁投影片概述了 PMT 投資策略在未來四個季度預期的運行率回報潛力。PMT 目前的運行率反映季度平均每股 0.37 美元，與上一季持平。由於短期利率預計在較長時間內維持較高水平，我們預期信貸敏感型策略的回報潛力將略有增加。

We also see improvement in the interest-sensitive strategy segment as the yield curve is steepened. The improvements in these segments were somewhat offset by a slightly decreased return potential in correspondent production, given the current expected margin environment. If the yield curve steepens further, we expect PMC's overall run rate would increase, closer to the $0.40 range, driven by higher overall yields in the interest rate-sensitive strategies.

由於殖利率曲線趨陡，我們也看到利率敏感策略部分有所改善。考慮到目前預期的利潤環境，這些部門的改善在一定程度上被相應生產的回報潛力略有下降所抵消。如果殖利率曲線進一步陡化，我們預計 PMC 的整體運行率將會上升，接近 0.40 美元的區間，這得益於利率敏感策略中更高的整體收益率。

Turning to our capital position, we retired $43 million of CRT term notes that were due to mature in October, where the remaining assets were financed via repurchase agreement due to the size of the position. Also, we repaid in full $210 million of exchangeable senior notes that matured in November. Through 2025, we will continue to look for opportunities to raise additional debt capital to address the maturity of our exchangeable note in 2026, as well as to provide additional funding for potential expansion of our securitization efforts.

談到我們的資本狀況，我們贖回了原定於 10 月到期的 4,300 萬美元 CRT 定期票據，剩餘資產因頭寸規模而透過回購協議融資。此外，我們也全額償還了11月到期的2.1億美元可交換優先票據。到 2025 年，我們將繼續尋找機會籌集額外的債務資本，以解決 2026 年可交換票據到期的問題，並為我們證券化工作的潛在擴張提供額外資金。

We'll now open it up for questions. Operator?

我們現在開始回答問題。操作員？

(Operator Instructions) Bose George, KBW.

(操作員指示) Bose George，KBW。

So you mentioned if the yield curve steepens, that helps the run rate outlook. Again, does that matter if it's -- if we see a sell off on the long end, does that kind of get you there as well? Or do we need the Fed to cut a little bit?

所以您提到如果殖利率曲線變陡，這將有助於運行利率前景。再說了，如果我們看到長期出現拋售，這是否也會對你產生影響？或者我們需要聯準會稍微降息一下？

No, that's correct, Bose. If we see the long end go up, basically, if we see differentiation, the greater the spread between really truly short-term rates and longer-dated rates really improves the outlook for the interest rate sensitive strategies to the overall steepness of the curve there. And from that perspective or somewhat ambivalent around whether the longer end goes up, or the shorter end goes down.

不，沒錯，Bose。如果我們看到長期利率上升，基本上，如果我們看到差異，那麼真正的短期利率和長期利率之間的差距越大，就越能真正改善利率敏感策略對曲線整體陡峭程度的前景。從這個角度來看，對於較長的一端是否上升，或較短的一端是否下降，人們的看法有些矛盾。

Great. And then in terms of your MSR hedge, is your strategy kind of similar at PMT versus PFS? Or is it sort of a tighter hedge here? Or just how would you characterize it?

偉大的。那麼就您的 MSR 對沖而言，您的 PMT 和 PFS 策略是否相似？或者這是一種更嚴格的對沖？或者您會如何描述它？

Generally speaking, we run a tighter hedge at PMT over time where we have run a tighter hedge from a hedge ratio perspective. The composition of the MSR portfolio in PMT versus PFSI is somewhat different at this point since PMT's MSR portfolio given that it has acquired fewer loans. More loans have been going to PFSI through the correspondent channel over the last few years than PMT has retained.

一般而言，隨著時間的推移，我們對 PMT 進行了更嚴格的對沖，從對沖比率的角度來看，我們已經進行了更嚴格的對沖。此時，PMT 與 PFSI 的 MSR 投資組合的組成略有不同，因為 PMT 的 MSR 投資組合獲得的貸款較少。過去幾年來，透過代理商管道流向 PFSI 的貸款比 PMT 留存的貸款還多。

It has a greater concentration of lower note rate loans, which are less -- have less sensitivity to interest rates changing and refinance. And also, PMT has less benefit on the other side from origination upticking because although it gets some of the recapture benefit due to its agreement with PFSI, if those loans are refinanced through PFSI, it only retains really a portion of the benefit, not the same amount of benefit that PFSI retains if it refinances its own loans.

它擁有更多的低利率貸款，這些貸款對利率變化和再融資的敏感度較低。另外，PMT 從發起量上升中獲得的另一方面的利益較少，因為雖然它根據與 PFSI 達成的協議獲得了一些回收利益，但如果這些貸款通過 PFSI 進行再融資，它實際上只能保留一部分利益，而不是 PFSI 為其自身貸款進行再融資時所保留的相同數額的利益。

And so for those reasons because -- for those two reasons, we run generally a tighter hedge at PMT. But I think it's also important to note that the sensitivity at PMT of the MSR portfolio is also lower.

基於這兩個原因，我們通常會對 PMT 進行更嚴格的對沖。但我認為還要注意的是，MSR 投資組合對 PMT 的敏感度也較低。

Matthew Erdner, Jones Trading.

馬修‧艾德納（Matthew Erdner），瓊斯貿易公司。

I'd like to touch on GSE reform and kind of how you guys are seeing it play out. And then kind of as a follow-up to it with the new FHFA director coming in, what are you guys expecting? And do you expect their footprint to just kind of shrink as a whole?

我想談談政府支持企業 (GSE) 改革以及大家對其進展的看法。那麼隨著新任 FHFA 主任的上任，你們有什麼期待嗎？您是否預期他們的足跡整體上會縮小？

Well, thank you, Matthew. Look, I think that it's still really early to really have a point of view on what the new FHFA director is going to do via the prior one. I can tell you, we've always had a good relationship with FHFA and the GSEs, and I'm excited to work with the new director.

好吧，謝謝你，馬修。聽著，我認為現在就對新任 FHFA 局長將透過前局長做什麼做出判斷還為時過早。我可以告訴你，我們一直與聯邦住房金融局和政府支持企業保持良好的關係，我很高興能與新董事合作。

I think my general sense is it's going to be a little bit of a return to the way things were the last time we had this administration in place. I think as a pertinent GSE reform have a similar point of view, that it's still really early to say one way or another how it's going to play out.

我認為，我的總體感覺是，這將稍微回到我們上一屆政府執政時的狀態。我認為，作為一項相關的政府支持企業改革，也有類似的觀點，現在談論它將如何發揮作用還為時過早。

But I can tell you, since we started the company, number one, always managed to a range of outcomes. So we're very much prepared to operate in an environment where 90% of the production goes to the GSEs like we saw during the Obama administration. Or we see GPs increase or continue to increase, thus removing loans from the GSEs in the private label market.

但我可以告訴你，自從我們創辦公司以來，我們始終設法取得一系列成果。因此，我們已經做好了在 90% 的生產由政府支持企業 (GSE) 承擔的環境中開展營運的準備，就像我們在奧巴馬政府時期看到的那樣。或者我們看到 GP 增加或繼續增加，從而從自有品牌市場的 GSE 中撤出貸款。

So that's what's really exciting about what's taking place in PMT. Because as we've seen guarantee fees go up, and we've seen credit spreads tighten, the ability to take investor loans and second home loans that we've historically delivered to the GSEs and securitize those has given us the ability to organically create investments for PMT at appropriate returns. And that's how this company was set up to operate. It just took a long time for private label securitization to come back.

這就是 PMT 中發生的真正令人興奮的事情。因為我們已經看到擔保費用上漲，並且我們已經看到信用利差收緊，我們能夠將過去交付給政府支持企業的投資者貸款和第二套住房貸款證券化，這使我們能夠以適當的回報為 PMT 有機地創造投資。這就是這家公司成立並運作的方式。只是自有品牌證券化花了很長時間才回歸。

We're on pace to do a deal a quarter, and I expect that to continue into the future. But obviously, that's subject to things that we can't control. But I think that the investor loan securitization market is one that we're very excited about.

我們每季都會達成一筆交易，我預計未來這股勢頭將持續下去。但顯然，這取決於我們無法控制的因素。但我認為，投資者貸款證券化市場是我們非常感興趣的市場。

Similarly, the organization is looking at other investments as well. Our jumbo loan originations between PFSI and PMT are on pace to be over $1 billion in the first quarter of this year. And a lot of those loans are being sold a long, but they're -- my plan is to do a securitization sometime in the first half of this year. And that will create an investment that has -- call it, low to mid-teens as well.

同樣，該組織也在考慮其他投資。今年第一季度，PFSI 和 PMT 之間的巨額貸款發放量預計將超過 10 億美元。許多貸款都是長期出售的，但我的計劃是在今年上半年某個時候進行證券化。這將創造一項投資，也可以稱之為低至中等水平的投資。

And so as we continue to create investments in the low to mid-teens range, that's going to be very, very important for PMT in its ability to grow. And I'm really -- I've been excited about PMT in a very long time. I just think that we're in a very good position with the work that's been done over the last year and kind of repositioning the assets and the ability to do securitization to play a meaningful role in a market that we would see if the GSE footprint were to continue to shrink.

因此，隨著我們繼續在低至中等規模範圍內進行投資，這對於 PMT 的成長能力非常非常重要。我真的 — — 我對 PMT 已經興奮了很長時間了。我只是認為，憑藉過去一年來所做的工作，我們處於非常有利的地位，重新定位資產，並有能力進行證券化，以便在市場中發揮有意義的作用，如果政府支持企業 (GSE) 的足跡繼續縮小，我們就會看到這一點。

Having said that, we can have status quo, and PMT will be fine. And I don't see guarantee fees decline. So I feel really good about where we're at and I'm generally -- not generally, I'm very bullish about what the opportunity set is for PMT.

話雖如此，我們可以維持現狀，PMT 也會沒事的。我沒有看到擔保費下降。因此，我對我們目前的狀況感到非常滿意，而且我總體上——不是總體上，我對 ​​PMT 的機會集非常樂觀。

Trevor Cranston, Citizens JMP.

特雷弗·克蘭斯頓 (Trevor Cranston)，公民 JMP。

A bit of a follow-up to the previous comments on the credit opportunities. When you say on slide 6, you're on track for a securitization per month, can you clarify that specifically just related to investor loans? Or would that incorporate other products such as prime jumbo?

對先前關於信貸機會的評論進行一些後續評論。當您在第 6 張投影片上說您將每月實現一次證券化時，您能否具體說明這是否僅與投資者貸款有關？或會包含其他產品，例如 Prime Jumbo？

And can you guys also maybe talk a little bit about kind of the product set and if there are other things you guys are thinking about for securitization beyond the investor loans and (inaudible)?

你們能不能談談產品組合，除了投資人貸款之外，你們還考慮證券化的其他面向？（聽不清楚）？

Yes. Look, we did two investor loans, second one securitization in Q4. We closed our first one of the year today as a matter of fact. And so I feel really good about maintaining that pace of activity. Having said that, we're also looking, as I said, at jumbo loans, which is another asset class under the residential umbrella that I'm really encouraged about.

是的。你看，我們在第四季進行了兩筆投資者貸款，第二次進行了證券化。事實上，我們今天結束了今年的第一個活動。因此，我對保持這樣的活動節奏感到非常滿意。話雖如此，正如我所說，我們也在關注巨額貸款，這是住宅領域下的另一個資產類別，我對此感到非常鼓舞。

As I mentioned, we'll do -- my plans to at least do at least one securitization in the first half of this year. I think we also just full disclosure, we PFSI is originating over $300 million a month of closed-end seconds. We've looked at securitizing those loans and retaining investment there.

正如我所提到的，我們計劃在今年上半年至少進行一次證券化。我認為我們也只是全面披露，我們 PFSI 每月發起超過 3 億美元的封閉式秒交易。我們已經考慮將這些貸款證券化並保留在那裡的投資。

It doesn't quite achieve our return targets. And so there, it's not on the radar yet. I mean, it's not on the radar, obviously, but it's not something that I see as an opportunity in the first half of this year. And the only asset class, that we're starting to look at a little bit as non-QM, particularly the prime non-QM where we kind of are intrigued about the returns there, but there's a lot of work to be done there before we do anything in that market.

它並沒有完全實現我們的回報目標。所以，它還沒有進入雷達範圍。我的意思是，這顯然不在我的考慮範圍內，但我認為這不是今年上半年的機會。我們開始將這個唯一的資產類別視為非 QM，尤其是優質的非 QM，我們對那裡的回報很感興趣，但在我們進入該市場之前還有很多工作要做。

But it's really -- it's a testament to the organization that in PMT, that they've built out this enterprise that can value and price and understand all of the different assets that they can invest in, and it's something that as we see more and more opportunities we're going to seize upon.

但這確實——這證明了 PMT 組織已經建立了這個企業，可以對他們可以投資的所有不同資產進行估值和定價，並且我們會隨著看到越來越多的機會而抓住它。

As it pertains to agency loans in particular, I mean, look, obviously, if we see guarantee fees go up or low level price adjustments go up, or I don't -- if they don't like high balance loans and they want to put an LLPA on that, obviously, we're going to use our capabilities and our robust best execution engines to optimize for the best execution for PMT.

尤其對於代理貸款而言，我的意思是，顯然，如果我們看到擔保費上漲或低水平價格調整上漲，或者如果他們不喜歡高餘額貸款並且想要在其上附加 LLPA，顯然，我們將利用我們的能力和強大的最佳執行引擎來優化 PMT 的最佳執行。

Eric Hagen, BTIG.

BTIG 的 Eric Hagen。

You have Jake Katsikas on here for Eric. Can you guys share how much liquidity you currently have, including the room you have to borrow more against the MSRs? And what is your most readily available source of liquidity to draw upon as you get closer to the maturity of the unsecured?

傑克·卡齊卡斯 (Jake Katsikas) 代替埃里克 (Eric) 來到這裡。你們能否分享一下目前你們有多少流動性，包括你們可以透過 MSR 借入更多資金的空間？當您的無擔保債務越來越接近到期時，您最容易獲得的流動資金來源是什麼？

Sure. So if you look at the balance sheet in terms of the liquidity that we had, the direct liquidity that we had outstanding at the end of the quarter was about $430 million. In terms of our financing facilities, we have a few hundred million dollars also available to be able to draw against the current collateral that we have outstanding at the end of the quarter.

當然。因此，如果您從流動性的角度來查看資產負債表，您會發現，本季末我們未償還的直接流動性約為 4.3 億美元。就我們的融資能力而言，我們還有幾億美元可用於抵銷本季末未償還的現有抵押品。

As we're moving toward the maturity upcoming of -- or the maturity early next year in 2026 of the convertible, we are looking at opportunities as I mentioned in the prepared remarks to access the capital markets to potentially replace that that debt or replace portion of that debt. So we -- a couple of years back, had done a baby bond issuance, that's an area that we would look at, again, potentially accessing the convertible debt markets as we did last year is also something that's available to us.

隨著可轉換債券即將到期（或者說將於明年初即 2026 年到期），我們正在尋找機會，正如我在準備好的評論中提到的那樣，進入資本市場來替換該債務或部分債務。因此，幾年前，我們曾發行過嬰兒債券，這是我們會研究的一個領域，同樣，像去年一樣進入可轉換債券市場也是我們可以做的事情。

But as we move through 2025, we will actively be looking at opportunities to add us to the market to offset some of that or to replace some of that maturity that's upcoming next year.

但隨著我們進入 2025 年，我們將積極尋找機會進入市場，以抵消部分損失或取代明年即將成熟的部分損失。

Doug Harter, UBS.

瑞銀的道格·哈特（Doug Harter）。

I appreciate you giving us some details around the gain from the non-agency securitization. How should we think about the profitability of that business compared to the traditional conventional correspondent business?

感謝您向我們提供有關非機構證券化收益的一些詳細資訊。與傳統的常規代理業務相比，我們應該如何看待該業務的獲利能力？

So the gains overall in the correspondent section in terms of the aggregation gains are generally a bit better or help influence the margin of the correspondent business upwards. However, we have been engaged in that business.

因此，從總結收益來看，代理部分的整體收益通常會更好一些，或有助於影響代理業務利潤率的上升。但是，我們一直在從事這項業務。

And although not necessarily securitizing, selling those loans through whole loan channels for the past few or several quarters, and although that business has been building over time, it's not necessarily going to significantly impact upward versus our historical performance prior to this quarter, the overall margin in the correspondent channel. And I think if you look at our run rate sort of it reflects that.

儘管不一定非要證券化，但過去幾季透過整個貸款管道出售這些貸款，儘管這項業務一直在不斷發展，但與本季之前的歷史業績相比，這並不一定會對代理通路的整體利潤率產生顯著影響。我認為，如果你看看我們的運行率，你會發現這一點。

What we did see in this quarter was actually an improvement in the spreads at which those loans could execute over typical GSE execution. And that was true both in terms of whole loan as well as securitization. And so given that we have been aggregating over a period of time to be able to execute these deals that we've been doing on a month for the past three months that did have a benefit on our overall aggregation pipeline. That's what led to that improvement that we saw or that contribution that we saw to the correspondent channel in this quarter.

本季我們確實看到，這些貸款的執行利差相對於典型的政府支持企業執行利差有所改善。無論是從整體貸款或證券化的角度來看，都是如此。因此，考慮到我們已經在一段時間內進行了聚合以便能夠執行過去三個月內每月進行的這些交易，這確實對我們的整體聚合管道產生了好處。這就是我們在本季看到的改善或對通訊管道做出的貢獻的原因。

But as you can see from our run rate, we don't necessarily expect that same level of contribution in each of the future quarters was a bit more specific to the tightening in that market that we saw in this quarter as we were aggregating.

但正如您從我們的運行率中看到的那樣，我們並不一定預期未來每個季度的貢獻水平都會相同，這在一定程度上更具體地歸因於我們在本季度匯總時看到的市場緊縮現象。

Doug, the really nice part of the investor loans in second homes is that right now, the securitization execution is really strong. But having said that, the bid for home loans is very deep. And many of those investors are holding the loans and not securitizing them. So there's is a pretty robust market away from securitization if you were to see an event in the private label markets that caused spreads to widen rather dramatically.

道格，第二套房屋投資者貸款真正好的地方在於，目前證券化的執行非常強勁。不過話說回來，房貸的競爭非常激烈。許多投資者持有貸款但並未將其證券化。因此，如果您看到私人標籤市場中發生的事件導致利差大幅擴大，那麼遠離證券化的市場就相當強勁。

And then finally, those loans are deliverable to the GSE. And so there is that third avenue. And so it's not like other private label product that we've seen in the past where it's solely reliant on securitization. There's multiple avenues and pads for that product to be delivered.

最後，這些貸款將交付給政府支援企業 (GSE)。這就是第三途徑。因此，它不像我們過去見過的其他自有品牌產品那樣完全依賴證券化。有多種途徑和平台可以運送該產品。

And we have no further questions at this time. I would like to turn it back to David Spector for closing remarks.

目前我們沒有其他問題。我想請戴維‧史佩克特作最後發言。

Well, I want to thank everyone for joining us this afternoon. I want to encourage any of you with any additional questions to contact our Investor Relations team by an e-mail or phone, and they're available all every day. And I suppose if you want to follow up with me or Dan, please don't hesitate to reach out. Thank you all for joining. Bye-bye.

好吧，我想感謝大家今天下午加入我們。我鼓勵大家如果有其他問題，可以透過電子郵件或電話聯絡我們的投資人關係團隊，他們每天都會在線上。我想，如果您想跟進我或丹的情況，請隨時與我聯繫。感謝大家的加入。再見。

Thank you, presenters. And this concludes today's conference call. Thank you all for participating. You may now disconnect.

謝謝主持人。今天的電話會議到此結束。感謝大家的參與。您現在可以斷開連線。