Origin Materials Inc (ORGN) 2024 Q4 法說會逐字稿

Thank you for standing by. This is the conference operator. Welcome to the Origin Materials fourth quarter and full-year 2024 earnings call. (Operator Instructions) the conference is being recorded. (Operator Instructions)

感謝您的支持。這是會議主持人。歡迎參加 Origin Materials 2024 年第四季和全年財報電話會議。 （操作員指示）會議正在錄音。（操作員指令）

At this time, for opening remarks and introduction, I would like to turn the call over to Ryan Smith, Co-Founder and Chief Product Officer. Please go ahead.

現在，為了致開幕詞和介紹，我想將電話轉給共同創辦人兼首席產品長 Ryan Smith。請繼續。

Thank you. Good afternoon, and thank you for joining us, everyone. Speaking first today is Origin's CEO and Co-Founder, John Bissell; followed by CFO and COO, Matt Plavan; then we will open the call to questions from analysts and discuss questions submitted as part of this quarter's Ask Origin campaign.

謝謝。下午好，感謝大家加入我們。今天首先發言的是 Origin 的執行長兼聯合創始人 John Bissell；接下來是財務長兼營運長 Matt Plavan；然後我們將開始回答分析師的問題，並討論本季度 Ask Origin 活動中提交的問題。

Ahead of the call, Origin has issued its 2024 fourth quarter and full-year press release and presentation. These can be found on the Investor Relations section of our website at originmaterials.com.

在電話會議召開之前，Origin 已經發布了 2024 年第四季和全年新聞稿和簡報。這些可以在我們網站 originmaterials.com 的投資者關係部分找到。

Please note that during our discussion today, we will be making forward-looking statements based on current expectations and assumptions, which are subject to risks and uncertainties. These statements reflect our views as of today, should not be relied upon as representative about views of any subsequent date, and we undertake no obligation to revise or publicly release the results of any revision to these forward-looking statements in light of new information or future events. These statements are subject to a variety of risks and uncertainties that could cause actual results to differ materially from expectations.

請注意，在今天的討論中，我們將根據當前的預期和假設做出前瞻性陳述，這些陳述將受到風險和不確定性的影響。這些聲明反映了我們截至今天的觀點，不應被視為代表任何後續日期的觀點，並且我們不承擔根據新資訊或未來事件修改或公開發布對這些前瞻性聲明的任何修訂結果的義務。這些聲明受各種風險和不確定因素的影響，可能導致實際結果與預期有重大差異。

For further discussion on the material risks and other important factors that could affect our financial results, please refer to our filings with the SEC, including our annual report on Form 10-K filed today.

有關可能影響我們財務業績的重大風險和其他重要因素的進一步討論，請參閱我們向美國證券交易委員會提交的文件，包括今天提交的 10-K 表年度報告。

During today's call, we will discuss non-GAAP financial measures, which we believe are useful as supplemental measures of Origin Materials' performance. These non-GAAP measures should be considered in addition to and not as substitute for or in isolation from GAAP results. You will find additional disclosures regarding the non-GAAP financial measures discussed on today's call in our press release issued this afternoon and our filings with the SEC, which will be posted to our website. The webcast of this call will also be available on the Investor Relations section of our company website.

在今天的電話會議中，我們將討論非公認會計準則財務指標，我們認為這些指標可作為 Origin Materials 績效的補充指標。這些非 GAAP 指標應被視為對 GAAP 結果的補充，而不應替代或與 GAAP 結果隔離。您可以在我們今天下午發布的新聞稿和向美國證券交易委員會提交的文件中找到有關今天電話會議上討論的非公認會計準則財務指標的更多披露，這些文件將發佈在我們的網站上。本次電話會議的網路直播也將在我們公司網站的投資者關係欄位中提供。

With that, I will turn the call over to John.

說完這些，我會把電話轉給約翰。

Thank you, Ryan. Good afternoon. This quarter was both a success and an inflection point for Origin. We stood up our first caps manufacturing line, turned on commercial production in February and are now shipping product to a growing list of customers for qualification as we continue our transformation into a technology-driven manufacturing organization on the path to substantial revenue and healthy margins.

謝謝你，瑞安。午安.本季對 Origin 來說既是成功的，也是一個轉捩點。我們建立了第一條瓶蓋生產線，於二月投入商業化生產，目前正在向越來越多的客戶發貨認證，我們將繼續向技術驅動的製造企業轉型，實現可觀的收入和健康的利潤。

We are solving a really big problem. A bottle cap made from PET that fits in the palm of your hand may seem like a small thing, but it's the key to a $65 billion market that has been seeking the solution we offer for decades. To our customers, this solution means better performing products with extended shelf life. It means sustainability. It means product circularity and recycling that really works.

我們正在解決一個真正大的問題。一個由 PET 製成的、可握在手掌中的瓶蓋看似很小，但卻是 650 億美元市場的關鍵，而幾十年來，這個市場一直在尋求我們提供的解決方案。對我們的客戶來說，該解決方案意味著產品性能更佳、保質期更長。它意味著可持續性。這意味著產品循環和回收確實有效。

For everyday people, it means starting to fix a broken recycling system by simplifying it, streamlining it and making recycled products more valuable. The solution has been out of reach. Nobody could solve the technology problem. Nobody could even see the problem in a way that would lead to a solution that works until now. In February 2025, we are pleased to announce we've begun commercial production from the world's first commercial PET cap manufacturing line.

對一般人來說，這意味著開始透過簡化、精簡和提高回收產品的價值來修復損壞的回收系統。解決方案已經遙不可及。沒有人能夠解決這個技術問題。到目前為止，還沒有人能夠以能夠找到有效解決方案的視角看待問題。2025 年 2 月，我們很高興地宣布，我們已經開始世界上第一條商業 PET 瓶蓋生產線的商業化生產。

CapFormer line 1 is up and running. To date, this is arguably our most important milestone as it is tangible proof of the CapFormer Systems commercial scale production capability, proof that is critical to our stakeholders, strategic partners, financiers, customers and investors. We want to acknowledge the perseverance, dedication and sacrifice made by the Origin team to achieve this historic first.

CapFormer 1號生產線已啟動並運行。到目前為止，這可以說是我們最重要的里程碑，因為它是 CapFormer Systems 商業規模生產能力的有力證明，這一證明對我們的利害關係人、策略合作夥伴、金融家、客戶和投資者都至關重要。我們要感謝 Origin 團隊為實現這一歷史性創舉所付出的毅力、奉獻和犧牲。

This week, we released a video showing the CapFormer System operating in our Reed City, Michigan manufacturing center. I encourage everyone to watch that video as it showcases the CapFormer in action and illustrates why we believe in this technology and the business it enables.

本週，我們發布了一段視頻，展示了 CapFormer 系統在我們位於密西根州里德城的製造中心的運作情況。我鼓勵每個人都觀看該視頻，因為它展示了 CapFormer 的實際運行，並說明了我們為什麼相信這項技術及其所實現的業務。

We also announced that three new CapFormer lines are nearing completion, and we expect them to finish factory acceptance testing during Q2 of this year. And we confirmed prior guidance that we expect to have eight CapFormer lines online by the end of 2025. We are now engaged in delivering caps for qualification, and we expect to have the first beverage products with the Origin caps on shelves in Q3 or perhaps as early as late Q2. From this point forward, continuous improvement is the rule. We have design modifications that we expect to implement both in future CapFormers and that we can use to retrofit existing CapFormers.

我們還宣布，三條新的 CapFormer 生產線即將完工，預計它們將在今年第二季完成工廠驗收測試。我們確認了先前的指導，預計到 2025 年底將有 8 條 CapFormer 生產線上線。我們目前正在致力於交付符合資格的瓶蓋，我們預計第一批帶有 Origin 瓶蓋的飲料產品將在第三季或最早在第二季末上架。從此刻起，持續改善就是規則。我們對設計進行了修改，期望將其應用於未來的 CapFormers，並可用於改造現有的 CapFormers。

We expect those modifications to substantially increase cap throughput per line and to enable new cap design features and add new formats to our product catalog. Naturally, increased throughput should equate to even better unit economics per line. To help quantify the extent of these improvements, we anticipate the output for CapFormer line 8 will be roughly double that of CapFormer line 1, with additional upgrades planned for lines thereafter.

我們期望這些修改能大幅提高每條生產線的瓶蓋吞吐量，並實現新的瓶蓋設計功能，並為我們的產品目錄添加新的格式。當然，產量的提高應該等同於每條生產線單位經濟效益的提升。為了幫助量化這些改進的程度，我們預計 CapFormer 8 號生產線的產量將大約是 CapFormer 1 號生產線的兩倍，此後還計劃對生產線進行其他升級。

And although we expect CapFormer line 1 will produce tens of millions of 1881 caps every month, it's important to keep in mind that our PET cap technology is a platform. which means it's a base for growing many different product formats and SKUs for many different applications.

儘管我們預計 CapFormer 1 號生產線將每月生產數千萬個 1881 瓶蓋，但必須記住，我們的 PET 瓶蓋技術是一個平台。這意味著它是為許多不同的應用開發許多不同產品格式和 SKU 的基礎。

We started with the 881 format because it's a massive market. Last year, we announced a tethered version of it designed to keep the cap connected to the bottle and comply with cap tethering mandates in the EU. In time, we're looking forward to announcing a variety of cap types, including not only beverage caps, but food container closures and more. We expect to introduce our first larger format cap in 2026, and we expect that larger cap formats will drive better margins because our manufacturing technology is particularly advantaged over the incumbent technology for making large caps.

我們從 881 格式開始，因為它是一個巨大的市場。去年，我們發布了一款繫繩版本，旨在將瓶蓋與瓶子連接起來，並符合歐盟關於瓶蓋繫繩的規定。隨著時間的推移，我們期待發佈各種類型的瓶蓋，不僅包括飲料瓶蓋，還包括食品容器蓋等等。我們預計將在 2026 年推出第一款更大尺寸的瓶蓋，並且我們預計更大尺寸的瓶蓋將帶來更好的利潤率，因為我們的製造技術比現有的大瓶蓋製造技術特別有優勢。

Today, caps are made by injection molding. With injection molding, the bigger the caps, the longer it takes to inject plastic resin into the circular mold. We make caps differently. Part of our technology advantage is that we use thermoforming. Instead of injecting molten plastic, we form it out of a hot sheet, similar to stamping the caps out. So no matter how wide the cap it doesn't take extra time to fill the diameter of the mold.

如今，瓶蓋都是透過注塑成型來製作的。對於射出成型而言，瓶蓋越大，塑膠樹脂注入​​圓形模具所需的時間就越長。我們製作的帽子與眾不同。我們的技術優勢之一在於我們使用熱成型。我們不是注入熔融的塑料，而是用熱板來成型，類似沖壓瓶蓋。因此，無論蓋子有多寬，都不需要花費額外的時間來填充模具的直徑。

In this industry, production economics is about speed, and our technology is capable of going faster. But cap economics is also about weight. PET is a more dense material than current cap materials, but it's also stronger. We take advantage of that strength in a way that in injection molding cannot because our forming technology excels at making thinner caps. Stronger materials enable thinner caps and thinner caps use less material.

在這個產業，生產經濟關乎速度，而我們的技術能夠發展得更快。但上限經濟學也與體重有關。PET 是一種比目前的瓶蓋材料更緻密的材料，但也更堅固。我們充分利用了這種優勢，而射出成型則無法做到這一點，因為我們的成型技術擅長製造更薄的瓶蓋。更堅固的材料可以製作更薄的蓋子，而更薄的蓋子使用的材料更少。

That's a fundamental advantage for Origin, capturing more and more value the larger the format. Another advantage of our platform is flexibility. Our CapFormer can be retrofitted with new molds reasonably quickly. That means we can make different products from the same line and that we can retrofit existing lines with higher throughput technology, enabling us to be nimble, both in responding to customer demand moving forward and in deploying new technology across lines that are already operating.

這是 Origin 的一個根本優勢，格式越大，獲得的價值就越大。我們平台的另一個優點是靈活性。我們的 CapFormer 可以相當快速地改裝新模具。這意味著我們可以用同一條生產線生產不同的產品，也可以用更高產量的技術改造現有生產線，使我們能夠靈活地響應未來的客戶需求，並在已經運營的生產線上部署新技術。

Lastly, eight lines is just the beginning. Our intention is to stand up additional Origin CapFormer lines in 2026 at a roughly similar pace to our deployment in 2025, accelerating as capital allows.

最後，八行只是一個開始。我們的目標是在 2026 年建立更多的 Origin CapFormer 生產線，速度與 2025 年的部署速度大致相同，並在資本允許的情況下加速。

Now let me turn to demand. Demand is incredibly strong, and we anticipate it will only grow stronger. Multiple customers have signed MOUs to purchase our caps. With our first production line up and running, we are now in the process of delivering caps to a growing list of customers for qualification with many additional customers in our pipeline. Despite not having publicly named our customers, we continue to accumulate substantial and accelerating demand for our caps.

現在讓我來談談需求。需求非常強勁，我們預計它只會變得更加強勁。多家客戶已簽署諒解備忘錄購買我們的帽子。隨著我們的第一條生產線投入運行，我們現在正在向越來越多的客戶交付瓶蓋，並且有許多其他客戶正在等待我們的批准。儘管我們沒有公開我們的客戶，但我們的瓶蓋需求量仍在不斷增加，且成長速度驚人。

And there are beneficial reasons for our discussion as we will discuss later. The reality is that we are increasingly in the enviable position of having indicative demand that significantly exceeds our fulfillment capability for several years to come. Our bigger challenge is to bring supply online as fast as practical to better meet demand and gain market share.

我們的討論是有益處的，我們稍後會討論。現實情況是，我們正處於令人羨慕的地位，未來幾年的指示性需求將大大超過我們的履行能力。我們面臨的更大挑戰是盡快實現線上供應，以更好地滿足需求並獲得市場份額。

We are assembling a melange of customers and partners that we believe balances volume, margin, deployment flexibility, technical expertise, credibility and ability to grow Origin. And all of these different customer types are currently represented in our pipeline. We found the caps market to be quite dynamic with a variety of customer types. This market dynamism means cap pricing is pleasantly more variable than we had expected when we began commercializing this technology.

我們正在組建一個由客戶和合作夥伴組成的綜合體，我們相信它可以平衡數量、利潤、部署靈活性、技術專長、可信度和發展 Origin 的能力。所有這些不同類型的客戶目前都在我們的管道中。我們發現帽子市場非常活躍，擁有各種各樣的客戶類型。這種市場活力意味著上限定價比我們開始商業化這項技術時預期的更具可變性。

As the only commercial producer of PET caps currently in the market, we are naturally aiming to price to the differentiated and unique value of our product. Volumes and expected delivery rates are different for each customer. Some customers are flexible on delivery times, others are not. Some customers require large inventory build, multiple months of production from a single line. before they will switch to a new cap type, while others need smaller shipments and consequently require less inventory.

作為目前市場上唯一的 PET 瓶蓋商業生產商，我們自然會根據我們產品的差異化和獨特價值來定價。每個客戶的數量和預期交付率都是不同的。有些顧客對於交貨時間比較靈活，有些則不然。有些客戶需要建立大量庫存，透過一條生產線進行數月的生產。然後他們才會轉換到新的瓶蓋類型，而其他公司則需要較小的出貨量，因此所需的庫存也較少。

We are slotting customer deliveries in a way that satisfies customers' needs while allowing us to continue to onboard new customers and set realistic expectations around delivery times as well. We, of course, aim for our near-term tactical decisions to enable our long-term strategy. Beyond the production lines we plan to own and either operate or contract for operation, we continue to lay the groundwork for partnerships such as licensing, in which we can supply technology to further enable the scale-up of overall PET cap supply.

我們正在以滿足客戶需求的方式安排客戶交付，同時允許我們繼續接納新客戶，並對交付時間設定切合實際的期望。當然，我們的目標是透過短期戰術決策來實現我們的長期策略。除了我們計劃擁有並運營或承包運營的生產線之外，我們還將繼續為許可等合作夥伴關係奠定基礎，透過這種合作，我們可以提供技術，進一步擴大整體 PET 瓶蓋供應。

Standing up our first production line supports that effort, we now have a proven intellectual property protected technology platform. We have demand from large companies for the technology and we have the ability to ramp deployment of our CapFormer lines to meet the massive supply needs of large customers.

我們的第一條生產線的建立支持了這項努力，現在我們擁有一個經過驗證的受智慧財產權保護的技術平台。大型公司對該技術有需求，我們有能力擴大 CapFormer 生產線的部署，以滿足大客戶的大量供應需求。

We're also pleased to share today that we've successfully expanded our CapFormer manufacturing relationships to ensure redundancy and additional capacity. All of these efforts are strategic for expanding supply generally, including in support of potential partnerships. We look forward to revealing the names of the customers who have already signed MOUs and of those in our pipeline.

今天，我們也很高興地宣布，我們已成功擴展了與 CapFormer 的製造關係，以確保冗餘和額外的產能。所有這些努力對於擴大供應都具有戰略意義，包括支持潛在的合作關係。我們期待公佈已簽署諒解備忘錄的客戶及正在洽談中的客戶名單。

But our customers generally want to keep the time between an announcement and their product with our caps on shelves as short as possible. With that in mind, we do anticipate announcing some initial customer names in the coming weeks or months.

但我們的客戶通常希望我們的產品從發佈到上架之間的時間間隔盡可能短。考慮到這一點，我們預計將在未來幾週或幾個月內公佈一些最初的客戶名稱。

In summary, market interest is strong and increasing. Our sales pipeline is growing and more customers are progressing through the pipeline as time goes on. We continue to believe we can sell every cap we make and we are just getting started in pursuing the massive opportunity presented by the $65 billion caps and closures market.

整體而言，市場興趣濃厚且不斷成長。我們的銷售管道不斷擴大，隨著時間的推移，越來越多的客戶透過管道取得進展。我們始終堅信，我們能夠賣出我們生產的每一個瓶蓋，而且我們才剛開始抓住價值 650 億美元的瓶蓋和封蓋市場帶來的巨大機會。

And now I'll hand it over to Matt for a review of the impact of these commercial dynamics on our expected near-term financial performance.

現在，我將交給馬特來審查這些商業動態對我們預期的近期財務表現的影響。

Thanks, John, and good afternoon, everyone. I'd like to speak to the financials of the cap business specifically before I turn to cover financials at the full-company level.

謝謝，約翰，大家下午好。在介紹整個公司層面的財務狀況之前，我想先具體談談上限業務的財務狀況。

First, a little commentary on cap margins, CapFormer line economics. For competitive reasons, we'll continue to refrain from sharing granular pricing information, but we do want to reiterate and expand on our previous guidance around the caps business at a macro level to help investors connect the dots on the value creation potential of this business. Margins per CapFormer line will vary due to a number of factors, including cap format, special features on the cap and customer volume commitments, just to name a few.

首先，對資本利潤率、CapFormer 線經濟學做一些評論。出於競爭原因，我們將繼續避免分享詳細的定價信息，但我們確實希望在宏觀層面重申並擴展我們之前對上限業務的指導，以幫助投資者了解該業務的價值創造潛力。每條 CapFormer 生產線的利潤率會因多種因素而有所不同，其中包括瓶蓋格式、瓶蓋的特殊功能以及客戶數量承諾等等。

That said, we expect the aggregate gross margins for the cap business to fall in the mid-double digits range. Additionally, our average capital cost per line is in the mid-single-digit millions separate from the cost of any extruders we may purchase along the way. We expect the payback period for the average line, including extrusion to be less than 18 months.

儘管如此，我們預計帽子業務的總毛利率將下降到兩位數的中段。此外，我們每條生產線的平均資本成本約為數百萬美金，這還不包括我們在過程中可能購買的任何擠出機的成本。我們預計包括擠壓在內的平均生產線的投資回收期將少於 18 個月。

Second, a few words about our financing strategy. As we've indicated previously, we believe our stock is significantly undervalued today, and therefore, we believe debt is the optimal way to finance our near-term growth. Thus, we are in the process of securing debt financing to fund our capital equipment build-out and our working capital needs to maintain a healthy minimum cash flow at all times. The expected short payback period per line makes for an attractive financing opportunity for lenders, and we are curating a number of financing proposals for all lines we have on order and in production.

第二，介紹一下我們的融資策略。正如我們之前所指出的，我們認為我們的股票目前被嚴重低估，因此，我們認為債務是資助我們近期成長的最佳方式。因此，我們正在確保債務融資，以資助我們的資本設備建設和營運資本需求，以始終保持健康的最低現金流。每條生產線預計較短的回報期為貸方帶來了頗具吸引力的融資機會，我們正在為所有已訂購和在產的生產線策劃一系列融資方案。

Third, let me speak to the timing for realizing revenue this year. Our first CapFormer has produced millions of caps, many of which are in the hands of some of the largest and most famous brands in the world to continue their qualification procedures. And although these qualification shipments will not count as sales, they do demonstrate significant and important commercial pull-through.

第三，我講一下今年實現收入的時間安排。我們的第一台 CapFormer 已生產了數百萬個瓶蓋，其中許多都在世界上一些最大和最著名的品牌手中，以繼續進行其資格認證程序。儘管這些合格的出貨量不算作銷售額，但它們確實顯示出顯著且重要的商業拉動。

As for when we can expect revenue generation to begin in earnest this year, it will be concurrent with our next three lines commencing production and customer order fulfillment during Q3 with meaningful revenue generation by Q4 this year and a strong 2025 revenue exit run rate.

至於我們何時可以預期今年能真正開始產生收入，這將與我們接下來的三條生產線在第三季開始生產和履行客戶訂單同時進行，並在今年第四季產生可觀的收入，並在 2025 年實現強勁的收入退出運行率。

Fourth, I'll speak to our view on 2026 revenue. With an expected strong revenue run rate entering the year, we anticipate adding a number of new CapFormer lines on a regular cadence during 2026, which we believe will result in a range of revenue for the full year between $110 million and $140 million separate from any potential licensing revenue.

第四，我將談談我們對 2026 年收入的看法。由於今年的營收運行率預計將強勁，我們預計在 2026 年將定期增加多條新的 CapFormer 生產線，我們相信這將為全年帶來 1.1 億美元至 1.4 億美元的收入，不包括任何潛在的授權收入。

Fifth, we are updating guidance on expected profitability timing due primarily to the delayed start to line 1's commercial production and the subsequent impact on timing for lines 2 through 8. We now expect to achieve EBITDA positive results on a run rate basis by the end of 2026, updated from our first half of 2026 prior guidance.

第五，我們正在更新預期獲利時間的指引，這主要歸因於1號線商業化生產的延遲以及對2號至8號線時間的後續影響。我們現在預計，到 2026 年底，EBITDA 將按運行率實現正增長，這一結果較我們先前對 2026 年上半年的預期有所更新。

And now for a few highlights on our quarterly and full-year results. We ended the year with $103 million in cash, cash equivalents and securities and when compared to the balance at the end of 2023 of $158 million, the difference is $55 million, which is at the low end of our cash burn guidance range for 2024 of $55 million to $65 million.

現在來看看我們季度和全年業績的一些亮點。截至年底，我們的現金、現金等價物和證券為 1.03 億美元，與 2023 年底的 1.58 億美元餘額相比，差額為 5500 萬美元，這處於我們對 2024 年現金消耗指導範圍 5500 萬至 6500 萬美元的低端。

Origin's fourth-quarter revenue was $9.2 million, compared to $13.1 million in the prior year quarter. Annual 2024 revenue of $31.3 million was well within our guidance for the year of $25 million to $35 million. Also, as expected, these revenues are comprised of what we refer to as supply chain activation revenue.

Origin 在第四季營收為 920 萬美元，而去年同期為 1,310 萬美元。2024 年的年收入為 3,130 萬美元，遠低於我們對 2,500 萬至 3,500 萬美元的預期。此外，正如預期的那樣，這些收入由我們所說的供應鏈激活收入組成。

Turning now to our operating expenses for the fourth quarter. They were $16.2 million compared to $19.8 million in the prior year period, a decrease of $3.6 million. This decrease consisted primarily of $2.7 million in lower research and development expenses and $1.3 million lower general and administrative expenses.

現在來談談我們第四季的營運費用。該數字為 1,620 萬美元，而去年同期為 1,980 萬美元，減少了 360 萬美元。減少的主因是研發費用減少 270 萬美元，一般及行政費用減少 130 萬美元。

For the full-year 2024, operating expenses were $85.3 million compared to $60.1 million in the prior year period, an increase of $25.2 million, a significant component of this increase is the $15.2 million noncash impairment charge of asset expense recognized in the third quarter of 2024, along with $7.4 million higher depreciation expense primarily associated with Origin 1.

2024 年全年營運費用為 8,530 萬美元，而去年同期為 6,010 萬美元，增加了 2,520 萬美元，這一增長的重要組成部分是 2024 年第三季確認的 1,520 萬美元的非現金資產減損費用，以及主要與 Origin 1 相關的 740 萬美元的更高折舊費用。

With that, I'll pass this back to John for concluding remarks.

最後，我將把這個意見交還給約翰，請他作最後總結。

Thanks, Matt. I want to take a moment to emphasize that Origin's intellectual property portfolio is substantial, growing and increasingly valuable in our view, deepening Origin's technology advantage. Our portfolio now comprises over 70 issued patents as well as dozens of pending applications.

謝謝，馬特。我想花點時間強調一下，在我們看來，Origin 的智慧財產權組合規模龐大、不斷成長且價值越來越高，從而深化了 Origin 的技術優勢。我們的專利組合目前包括 70 多項已頒發的專利以及數十項正在申請的專利。

In January 2025, five applications published covering single and double-walled closures, knurled and threaded closures and methods of making our closures via thermoforming. Origin's IP lets us make a new lighter, better-performing cap than our competitors can make using a proprietary cap forming method our competitors can't duplicate. In short, we believe we have created a defensible moat for this business.

2025 年 1 月，發布了五項申請，涵蓋單壁和雙壁封蓋、滾花和螺紋封蓋以及透過熱成型製造封蓋的方法。Origin 的 IP 讓我們能夠使用競爭對手無法複製的專有瓶蓋成型方法製造出比競爭對手更輕、性能更好的新型瓶蓋。簡而言之，我們相信我們已經為這項業務創造了可防禦的護城河。

In the near future, millions of our caps will be in consumers' hands. Although we do not sell directly to consumers, we recognize the importance of the consumer experience to our success. From the tactile experience of twisting the cap and breaking the seal, to the sound of the seal breaking, to the hand feel of the cap itself, to the visual and physical design possibilities available to us with our technology, it all leads to that critical first use experience and the visceral response that determines if someone likes the experience or not. We're happy to report that we've seen a lot of smiles so far.

不久的將來，數以百萬計的我們的瓶蓋將會到達消費者的手中。雖然我們不直接向消費者銷售產品，但我們認識到消費者體驗對我們的成功的重要性。從扭動瓶蓋和打開密封的觸覺體驗，到密封打開的聲音，到瓶蓋本身的手感，再到我們利用技術所能實現的視覺和物理設計可能性，所有這些都與至關重要的首次使用體驗和內心反應有關，這決定了人們是否喜歡這種體驗。我們很高興地告訴大家，到目前為止我們已經看到了很多笑容。

It really is a very satisfying experience. We've been encouraged by the consumer feedback we've received thus far and are looking forward to all of you and millions of others getting to have your first experience with Origin PET caps in the near future.

這確實是一次非常令人滿意的經驗。到目前為止，我們收到的消費者回饋令我們感到鼓舞，我們期待著大家以及其他數百萬人在不久的將來首次體驗 Origin PET 瓶蓋。

Finally, I want to reiterate that we are building a product, but more importantly, we are building a platform. I'm proud of the work we're doing. And at the same time, I think it's important to have our team, including our investors, look up from where we are now and stay oriented on where we're going.

最後我想重申一下，我們正在打造一個產品，但更重要的是，我們正在打造一個平台。我對我們所做的工作感到自豪。同時，我認為讓我們的團隊，包括我們的投資者，審視現狀並確定未來的發展方向非常重要。

Success for Origin is not making 1 billion caps; it's not launching one CapFormer line or even eight CapFormer lines. Success for us is building a platform that can grow smoothly, scalably to accommodate hundreds of caps lines over time. One that is capable of converting a significant share of the $65 billion cap and closures market to PET caps in the coming years. We're just getting started.

對 Origin 來說，成功並不在於生產 10 億個瓶蓋；它並沒有推出一條 CapFormer 生產線，甚至也沒有推出八條 CapFormer 生產線。對我們來說，成功就是建立一個可以平穩、可擴展地成長的平台，以便隨著時間的推移容納數百條瓶蓋生產線。該公司能夠在未來幾年內將價值 650 億美元的瓶蓋和封蓋市場的很大一部分轉化為 PET 瓶蓋。我們才剛開始。

With that, I'll open up the call for questions. Operator, may we have the first question, please?

現在，我將開始回答大家的提問。接線員，我們可以問第一個問題嗎？

Frank Mitsch, Fermium Research.

弗蘭克米奇，費米研究中心。

I appreciate the color, John and Matt. I wanted to get into the timeline a little bit more in the qualification process, et cetera. So you've gotten commercial volumes out of line 1 three weeks ago. And right now, you're producing that and that's going out to testing to multiple customers. I'm assuming that or educate me that they are qualifying the product and in future, would be -- have no issues in sourcing from lines 2, 3 and 4. So can you confirm that?

我很欣賞顏色，約翰和馬特。我想更深入地了解資格審查過程的時間表等等。因此，三週前您的商業交易量就已經超出了 1 號線。現在，您正在生產該產品，並將其提供給多個客戶進行測試。我假設或告訴我，他們正在對產品進行鑑定，並且在未來，從第 2、3 和 4 行採購不會有問題。你能證實這一點嗎？

And also, how long does the qualification process take? And any more specificity on the three lines that are currently in production right now that you haven't been able to get up and running yet? So any additional color there would be very helpful.

此外，資格認證過程需要多長時間？關於目前正在生產但尚未啟動和運行的三條生產線，您還能提供更多具體資訊嗎？因此，任何額外的顏色都會非常有幫助。

Frank, thanks for the question. So a couple of things. First, yes, you're right. We've been producing millions of caps from our first cap forming line. And those are going to a couple of different areas.

弗蘭克，謝謝你的提問。有幾件事。首先，是的，你是對的。我們的第一條瓶蓋成型生產線已經生產了數百萬個瓶蓋。這些將會去往幾個不同的領域。

Qualification can be broken down into a couple of different categories. One is sending caps to customers for them to qualify the product in its entirety, let's call it. So using our caps at the appropriate rates on their capping and filling systems. One of the tricky things about this is that there's a performance of the cap on a given bottle, but there's also the performance of the cap in the capping line or the capping and filling line.

資格可以分為幾個不同的類別。一種是將瓶蓋寄給客戶，以便他們可以全面確認產品的合格性，我們這樣稱呼它。因此，在他們的封蓋和填充系統上以適當的比率使用我們的瓶蓋。這其中的棘手之處是，瓶蓋在特定瓶子上有其性能，但瓶蓋在封蓋線或封蓋和填充線上也有其性能。

And there's -- a big part of the performance of these caps is not just how do they perform on average or at best, it's how do they perform in their frequency of misfire or failure or something along those lines? And so you really need large sample sizes to that kind of evaluation at the quality level that our customers care about. And so that's why there's -- even though they've tested it on individual bottles.

而且這些電容器的性能很大一部分不在於它們的平均性能或最佳性能，還在於它們的失火或故障頻率或類似的性能如何？因此，您確實需要大樣本量來達到客戶關心的品質水準的評估。這就是為什麼——儘管他們已經在單個瓶子上進行了測試。

They've tested it on relatively tens of thousands, or at least hundreds of thousands of caps on lines, it's a really large quantity of cap that's required really to do a true qualification for the capping lines themselves. So that's the kind of thing that's happening right now and that we're preparing samples for them to run.

他們已對數萬個或至少數十萬個生產線上的瓶蓋進行了測試，對於瓶蓋生產線本身而言，進行真正的鑑定所需的瓶蓋數量確實非常大。這就是現在發生的事情，我們正在準備樣本供他們運行。

There's a second kind of qualification, which is the qualification actually internally for our own next set of lines because, as you mentioned, we have lines 2, 3 and 4 in process, we take caps from our first line, and we actually use them to qualify the next set of equipment also. And our view is that, that's important because building capacity is sort of high leverage relative to everything else.

還有第二種資格認證，這實際上是我們自己下一組生產線的內部資格認證，因為正如您所提到的，我們正在生產 2、3 和 4 號生產線，我們從第一條生產線上取下蓋子，實際上我們也用它們來認證下一組設備。我們認為，這很重要，因為相對於其他一切而言，能力建構都具有很高的槓桿作用。

And so our caps -- and again, we're talking tens, hundreds of thousands and ultimately millions of caps to do those kinds of things. And so the first set of those caps coming off from CapFormer line 1 is going to those kind of activities, both customer qualifications and for our own internal equipment qualification.

所以我們的帽子——再說一次，我們說的是數萬、數十萬甚至數百萬個帽子來完成這些事情。因此，從 CapFormer 1 號生產線下來的第一批瓶蓋將用於此類活動，既用於客戶認證，也用於我們自己的內部設備認證。

In terms of how long these qualifications take, the answer, and we spoke to this a little bit in terms of just the extent of variability in the caps market that we found is -- and we see this, of course, with [spice], but we also see it with really, frankly, the level of diligence that these customers will use during their qualification process. And what we find is, generally, the larger the volume of product that the customer is expecting to roll these caps out on to, as you'd expect, the more qualification work they do.

關於這些資格認證需要多長時間，答案是，我們就我們發現的資本市場變化程度而言，我們當然在[spice]上看到了這一點，但坦白說，我們也看到了這些客戶在資格認證過程中將採取的勤勉程度。我們發現，一般來說，客戶期望使用這些上限的產品量越大，他們所做的資格認證工作就越多。

And so consequently, we see that with smaller customers, they can usually move quicker. Their qualification is less intensive and it just takes less time. With larger customers, it tends to be a longer process.

因此，我們發現，對於較小的客戶，他們通常可以行動得更快。他們的資格要求較低，所需時間也較少。對於較大的客戶來說，這往往是一個更長的過程。

And we also mentioned there's the qualification. And then there's actually the inventory build that goes into supplying these larger customers as well, right? They don't want to be operating in a just-in-time kind of fashion with our first line. They want us to have a significant amount of inventory that's built to continue to supply them if we happen to have any supply chain hiccups that show up. We don't think that we'll have those, but I think it's prudent for organizations to have that kind of inventory build in their supply chain, no matter how you slice it.

我們也提到了資格問題。然後實際上還有庫存建設也用於供應這些較大的客戶，對嗎？他們不想以準時制的方式運作我們的第一條生產線。他們希望我們擁有大量的庫存，以便在出現任何供應鏈問題時繼續為他們供貨。我們不認為我們會擁有這些，但我認為無論如何劃分，組織在其供應鏈中建立這種庫存是明智之舉。

All right. That's very helpful in explaining some of the complexity. The one account that you haven't named, although you did name the size, it's a $100 million-plus memorandum of understanding that I believe it was supposed to start in the first quarter of this year, and that contract was over a two-year period, the expectation was that you would be able to get to that $100 million over a two-year period starting now. And obviously, it looks like that's being delayed a little bit.

好的。這對於解釋一些複雜性非常有幫助。您沒有透露一個帳戶的名稱，儘管您確實提到了規模，但這是一份價值 1 億美元以上的諒解備忘錄，我相信它應該在今年第一季開始，並且該合約為期兩年，預計您將能夠從現在開始的兩年內獲得 1 億美元。顯然，這看起來好像有點被推遲了。

Also, if your sales in 2026, the projection is basically this one customer itself, and I know that that's not going to be the case. Is there anything you can describe qualitatively or quantitatively with respect to that kind of baseline customer that you have out there that you've identified everything except the name of the customer. Anything there would be helpful.

此外，如果你在 2026 年進行銷售，那麼預測基本上就是這個客戶本身，但我知道事實並非如此。對於您所擁有的那種基線客戶，您能定性或定量地描述一下什麼嗎？除了客戶姓名之外，您已經確定了所有內容。那裡的任何東西都會有幫助。

Yeah, sure. No, understood. So as you said, we were a little bit slower getting this CapFormer line 1 up and running than we were originally expecting when we announced that MOU. As a consequence, we do expect that that's going to push the start date or the initiation date of the purchases made or described in that MOU by sort of day for day or equivalent amount. So we're a little bit slower getting that rolling.

是的，當然。不，明白。所以正如你所說的，我們在宣布諒解備忘錄時，啟動和運行 CapFormer 1 號線的速度比最初預期的要慢一些。因此，我們確實預計，這將推遲該諒解備忘錄中所述或描述的購買的開始日期或啟動日期，時間可能會是逐日或等值。因此我們的進展稍微慢了一點。

But we still expect it to be a two-year term, which is the way we described it originally. And so -- and that would be backloaded into the second year. When we put that agreement together, that was in mind of the -- or in light of the ramp rate that we're describing now, where we have eight CapFormers this year and that, obviously, as a consequence, the bulk of production or the run rate is going to be much higher at the end of this year than it will be at the beginning, right?

但我們仍然希望它是一個兩年的任期，這也是我們最初的描述。所以 — — 這將會延後到第二年。當我們達成該協議時，我們考慮到了 - 或者考慮到我們現在描述的爬坡率，今年我們有 8 台 CapFormers，顯然，因此，今年年底的大部分產量或運行率將比年初高得多，對吧？

So we're escalating quite quickly into our production rate as those CapFormers come online. And so we see the production rate in '26, obviously, quite a bit higher than the production rate in '25. And so that's sort of reflected in the balance of that agreement.

所以隨著這些 CapFormers 上線，我們的生產力就迅速提升。因此，我們看到 1926 年的生產力顯然比 1925 年的生產力高出不少。這在某種程度上反映在該協議的平衡上。

And then, of course, because of the two-year contract that we're talking about, and it's being pushed by a little bit into '25 for the start. Then we expect it to extend into '27. So some of that revenue that we would have expected there from that particular contract is going to extend into '27.

然後，當然，因為我們正在談論的兩年合同，而且開始的時間被推遲了一點到 25 年。我們預計它會延續到27年。因此，我們預期該特定合約帶來的部分收入將延續到27年。

But the guidance that we gave for '26 is consistent with all the things that I just said. So you can sort of trace that out and say, Well, that contract is probably going to be a meaningful amount of our 2026 revenue, but we expect there to be quite a few other customers that are meaningful in that mix as well.

但我們為26年所給予的指導與我剛才所說的一切都是一致的。因此，您可以對此進行追溯並說，好吧，該合約可能會占我們 2026 年收入的很大一部分，但我們預計還會有相當多的其他客戶也對此具有重要意義。

Okay. Yes, that's very helpful. Matt, in the presentation and you talked about wanting to maintain a minimum cash level and kudos on hitting the low end of the cash burn for 2024. So what is that minimum cash level? And any forecast on your cash burn rate for 2025?

好的。是的，這很有幫助。馬特，在演講中你談到了希望維持最低現金水平，並讚揚在 2024 年達到現金消耗的低端。那麼最低現金水準是多少？您對 2025 年的現金消耗率有何預測？

Yes. I just wanted to follow up real quick on the last answer that John gave, although I know it's probably obvious, I'd like to be explicit. When you said it's a two-year term, that's just the MOU itself, our expectation is that, that would be a contract that would persist or that relationship would persist over time. So it's two years and it somehow doesn't persist. Just wanted to clarify that.

是的。我只是想快速跟進約翰給出的最後一個答案，雖然我知道這可能很明顯，但我還是想明確一點。當您說這是一個兩年的期限時，這只是諒解備忘錄本身，我們的期望是，這將是一份能夠持續存在的合同，或者這種關係能夠持續存在一段時間。所以已經兩年了，但不知何故卻沒有持續下去。只是想澄清這一點。

It's probably obvious, but we said the term, it's an initial two years. I just want to clarify that.

這可能很明顯，但我們說過，期限是最初的兩年。我只是想澄清這一點。

So from a cash burn standpoint, a minimum cash balance, we haven't disclosed what that would be, but we always think it's prudent to have at least a year to 18 months of run rate on your balance sheet. And although we haven't given specific cash burn guidance, I think it's fair to say that when you look at the operating expenses for 2024, and we think of that in terms of cash, in particular, so we would strip out any noncash charges, material noncash charges, which would be stock comp and depreciation and amortization, it was roughly $48 million in 2024. We don't expect that to change materially in 2025.

因此，從現金消耗的角度來看，我們尚未透露最低現金餘額是多少，但我們始終認為，在資產負債表上至少顯示一年到 18 個月的運行率是明智的。儘管我們沒有給出具體的現金消耗指導，但我認為可以公平地說，當您查看 2024 年的營運費用時，我們會特別從現金角度考慮這一點，因此我們會剔除任何非現金費用，重大非現金費用，即股票補償和折舊和攤銷，2024 年約為 4800 萬美元。我們預計這種情況在 2025 年不會發生重大變化。

So we think we're going to keep that steady and you know the financing strategy is really utilize our existing capital and raise that to cover the equipment that we're purchasing. And those two sources, we think, get us through the year with a healthy minimum cash balance and on our way into an exciting 2026.

因此我們認為我們將保持穩定，你知道融資策略是真正利用我們現有的資本並籌集資金來支付我們購買的設備。我們認為，這兩個來源將幫助我們以健康的最低現金餘額度過今年，並邁向令人興奮的 2026 年。

Salvator Tiano, Bank of America.

美國銀行的薩爾瓦多‧蒂亞諾 (Salvator Tiano)。

So I understand now you're talking about the adjusted free cash flow of around $50 million for this year, you still didn't provide the unlike of the past few years any revenue or EBITDA guidance for 2025 unless I missed it. So can you elaborate both on what that outlook would be and also why the change in your framework?

所以我現在明白，您談論的是今年約 5000 萬美元的調整後自由現金流，但與過去幾年不同，您仍然沒有提供 2025 年的任何收入或 EBITDA 指引，除非我錯過了。那麼您能否詳細闡述一下這種觀點是什麼以及為什麼要改變您的框架呢？

Sure. You're right. We haven't been specific about 2025. I think we've kind of given as much as we're comfortable giving, which is that it will be revenue beginning really materially beginning in Q3 and then ramping in Q4 in accordance with the builds of the CapFormers.

當然。你說得對。我們還沒有具體說明2025年的具體時間。我認為我們已經給出了我們願意給出的全部金額，也就是說，收入將從第三季度開始真正開始實質增長，然後根據 CapFormers 的構建在第四季度逐漸增加。

And as John mentioned in his comments, with regard to the timing of bringing on customers and the volumes in between those different customers and the timing of those is significant variability. And so we think it's imprudent to try and give you a specific number for revenue at this point for 2025.

正如約翰在他的評論中提到的那樣，關於吸引客戶的時機以及不同客戶之間的數量以及這些時間存在很大的差異。因此我們認為，此時試圖給出 2025 年的具體收入數字是不明智的。

And what we thought was more important is to give you our confidence in the exit rate being substantial and significant off of these eight lines. And that we felt more comfortable sizing 2026's revenue than 2025 and the fact that we also expect to reach run rate profitability in 2026, we felt that was the best guidance to give the Street right now based on our visibility. And again, all the moving parts in Q3 and Q4 are such that we're not comfortable we can give you a number that would be meaningful.

我們認為更重要的是讓您相信這八條線路的退出率是可觀且顯著的。而且，我們對 2026 年的收入規模比 2025 年更為放心，而且我們預計 2026 年也將實現運行率盈利，我們認為，根據我們的預見性，這是目前可以給予華爾街的最佳指引。再說一次，第三季和第四季的所有變動部分都讓我們感到不安，所以我們無法給出一個有意義的數字。

Okay. Perfect. I also wanted to ask a little bit about the issues with line 1. Can you first elaborate a little bit on what happened there? And secondly, why is it pushing, I guess, if we think of the prior breakeven EBITDA or positive EBITDA was expected in the first half of '26 now and end of that year, it implies a minimum of four- to six-month delay, if not more.

好的。完美的。我還想問一下有關第 1 行的問題。能先詳細說明一下那裡發生的事情嗎？其次，我猜為什麼要推後呢，如果我們考慮到之前的盈虧平衡 EBITDA 或預計在 26 年上半年和當年年底出現的正 EBITDA，這意味著至少要延遲四到六個月，甚至更多。

So why would the delay in what seems to be the smallest lag you're adding cause such a pushback in your breakeven EBITDA?

那麼，為什麼您添加的看似最小的滯後會導致您的盈虧平衡 EBITDA 出現如此大的延遲呢？

Yeah. So I think -- I'm sorry, I missed actually the first part of your question, I think you broke up a little bit. What was your question on line 1?

是的。所以我認為——抱歉，我實際上錯過了你問題的第一部分，我認為你有點崩潰了。您在第一行問的問題是什麼？

What are the issues that you mentioned? If you can elaborate a little bit on that.

您提到的問題是什麼？如果您可以對此進行稍微詳細說明的話。

I'm still missing the second word, sorry.

我還是沒懂第二個字，抱歉。

Sorry, I believe there are some issues with line 1 that was mentioned.

抱歉，我認為提到的第 1 行存在一些問題。

Oh, issues.

哦，問題。

So what are the basis, yes. And ultimately, why is it pushing back your timeline for EBITDA breakeven by at least four to six months?

那麼依據是什麼呢？是的。最後，為什麼要將 EBITDA 收支平衡時間延後至少四到六個月呢？

Yes. Got it. Okay. So on line 1, and I think we described this a little bit in some of our social media post, but when we were giving sort of regular updates on the progress of line 1. One of the things that we saw was customers in Q4 really came back to us and said, look, we understand why you think that the user experience associated with the cap doesn't require knurls.

是的。知道了。好的。所以在第 1 行，我想我們在一些社群媒體貼文中對此進行了一點描述，但當時我們正在定期更新第 1 行的進度。我們看到的一件事是，第四季度的客戶真的回來找我們並說，看，我們明白您為什麼認為與蓋子相關的用戶體驗不需要滾花。

But our customers really believe that it was necessary for some of the manufacturing components that I described, the filling and capping lines really needed those knurls to be able to perform well. And so we went back and added the knurling feature to line 1 when -- really when we were planning all this out originally, we didn't expect to. We expect it to always add knurls, but it wouldn't be with the first line. And so that was really what gave us a bit of a delay there. And the broader philosophy behind that is, of course, we want to bring all of the beneficial features that we can to our caps, but we're also trying to go quickly.

但我們的客戶確實相信，對於我所描述的一些製造組件而言，填充和封蓋生產線確實需要這些滾花才能表現良好。所以我們回去並將滾花功能添加到第 1 行，而實際上，當我們最初計劃這一切時，我們並沒有想到這一點。我們希望它總是添加滾花，但它不會在第一行添加。所以這確實導致我們稍微延遲了。當然，這背後更廣泛的理念是，我們希望將所有可能的有益功能都添加到我們的產品中，但我們也正在努力快速推進。

And so the game is to make sure that we bring all the necessary features at every stage and then give ourselves time to introduce the more performance features as we make our way through the -- process of building this business. So we took our customer feedback, and went back, introduced knurls, that gave us a little bit of a delay there for line 1.

因此，我們要確保在每個階段都帶來所有必要的功能，然後在我們建立這項業務的過程中給自己時間引入更多效能功能。因此，我們聽取了客戶的回饋，然後重新引入了滾花，這導致第一條生產線稍微延遲。

And that really, we're seeing that delay not day for day, but propagate through a lot of the work we're doing not just because of knurling, but because, as I described, there's qualification work that has to happen with these lines, getting that knurling on and delaying line 1 delayed some of that qualification work. And it just has a variety of sort of impacts as you look across the propagation of the business or of our manufacturing capacity.

事實上，我們看到這種延遲不是日復一日的，而是在我們所做的許多工作中不斷蔓延，這不僅是因為滾花，還因為，正如我所描述的，這些生產線必須進行資質認證工作，進行滾花和延遲 1 號生產線會延遲一些資質認證工作。當你縱觀業務的擴展或製造能力時，它會產生各種各樣的影響。

I'd also say we really aren't saying there's a six-month delay. What we're saying is it's difficult more than a year out to forecast the exact point where we think that we're going to cross over from -- into an EBITDA positive run rate.

我還想說，我們實際上並不是說有六個月的延遲。我們所說的是，在一年多的時間裡很難預測我們認為我們將從哪個確切的點跨越到 EBITDA 正運行率。

And so we were saying first half, we're now saying it's sometime in '26 as you suspect, that's because we think there's a little bit of fuzziness there, and we would rather sort of be transparent about that fuzziness now. We are not looking at that and saying that we expect it to be a full six months. There's high uncertainty when you're this far out.

所以我們之前說的是上半年，現在我們說它是在 26 年的某個時候，正如你所懷疑的那樣，那是因為我們認為那裡有一點模糊性，我們寧願現在對這種模糊性保持透明。我們並沒有考慮這一點，並且表示我們預計這將是整整六個月的時間。當你距離這麼遠的時候，不確定性就會很高。

Okay. And the last thing I want to understand a little bit is, I had realized so these lines, you start with PET shapes that you get from I guess other suppliers rather than just buying just the pellets and excluding the PET yourself, right, if I understood correctly. So I guess what drove the decision? And what allows you to have the strong economics?

好的。最後我想了解的是，我已經意識到這些生產線，你從其他供應商那裡獲得的 PET 形狀開始，而不是僅僅購買顆粒，而自己排除 PET，對吧，如果我理解正確的話。那我猜是什麼促使了這個決定呢？那麼是什麼讓你們擁有強大的經濟實力呢？

The mid -- I don't know if it's 40% to 50% gross margin that you're talking about, even though you are not essentially you're leaving one step of the manufacturing process, the extrusions to an external party, which should be technically get compensated for that. So how do you achieve this margin? And why did you make this decision?

中間——我不知道你所說的毛利率是不是 40% 到 50%，儘管你本質上並沒有將製造過程的一個步驟，即擠壓留給外部方，但從技術上講，應該得到補償。那麼如何才能實現這項利潤呢？為什麼您做出這個決定？

Yeah. So I think there are two places where you need that sort of two-time regimes that we need to talk about here. The first is near term, which is it takes some time to get extruders. Extruders are longer lead time than thermal formers and all the other equipment in our cap forming systems. As a consequence, you even if you have extruders on order, if you're waiting for the extruders to operate those cap forming lines, then there's a mismatch.

是的。所以我認為有兩個地方需要這種雙重製度，我們需要在這裡討論一下。第一個是近期，也就是說需要一些時間來獲得擠出機。擠出機的交付週期比熱成型機和我們瓶蓋成型系統中的所有其他設備都要長。因此，即使您已經訂購了擠出機，如果您正在等待擠出機來操作那些瓶蓋成型線，那麼就會出現不匹配的情況。

And we don't think that mismatch is worthwhile to wait for. So we wanted to get our cap forming lines landed. We want to start making caps and generating revenue, making money off those cap forming lines. And then we will introduce extruders to vertically integrate those lines over time. So that's one in terms of timing.

我們認為，這種不匹配不值得等待。因此，我們希望讓我們的瓶蓋成型生產線順利落地。我們想開始生產瓶蓋並創造收入，透過這些瓶蓋成型生產線賺錢。然後我們將引入擠出機，隨著時間的推移垂直整合這些生產線。從時間角度來說，這是其中之一。

Two, you described correctly that there is margin available -- increased margin available by operating our own extruders, that's true. But our margin is not entirely dependent upon operating those extruders. We can make margin without them. And so we think it's worthwhile to start doing that. You quoted a particular margin profile.

二，您描述得對，透過操作我們自己的擠出機可以增加可用的利潤，這是真的。但我們的利潤並不完全依賴操作這些擠出機。沒有它們我們仍然可以賺取利潤。因此我們認為開始這樣做是值得的。您引用了一個特定的保證金概況。

I think what we said was mid double-digit percentages. Our expectation on that, I should say, is not immediate right from the very first CapFormers. That is the way that we expect the business to evolve over, say, the next couple of years. And we also think that's going to be a mix of different types of cap formats. It's not all just on any given cat format that we have the same margins.

我認為我們所說的是兩位數的中等百分比。我應該說，我們對此的期望並不是從第一批 CapFormers 開始就立即產生的。這就是我們預期未來幾年業務將如何發展。我們也認為這將是不同類型的上限格式的混合。並不是所有給定的貓格式都有相同的邊距。

And so I think just be cautious about applying that to any given cat former or cat format, but we do think that's going to be something in the mid-double-digit percentages is the margin profile that we expect for the cap business overall.

因此，我認為在將其應用於任何給定的 cat 成型器或 cat 格式時要謹慎，但我們確實認為這將是中等兩位數百分比的某個值，這是我們對整個 cap 業務預期的利潤率。

That's all the question we have from the phone line. Now I'll turn it over to Ryan Smith for a Q&A section answering Ask Origin questions submitted by investors prior to today's call. Please go ahead.

這就是我們透過電話詢問的所有問題。現在，我將把問答環節交給 Ryan Smith，回答投資者在今天的電話會議之前提交的 Ask Origin 問題。請繼續。

Thank you, operator. Prior to our earnings call, we invited all investors to submit questions as part of our Ask Origin campaign. Thank you so much to everyone who participated. You asked some great questions.

謝謝您，接線生。在我們的收益電話會議之前，我們邀請所有投資者作為 Ask Origin 活動的一部分提交問題。非常感謝所有參與者。你問了一些非常好的問題。

These questions were, of course, submitted before our call today, and we answered many of them thoroughly with our prepared remarks and our analyst Q&A. We will generally be answering the most relevant questions today during the time that we have.

當然，這些問題是在我們今天的電話會議之前提交的，我們透過準備好的發言和分析師問答徹底回答了其中的許多問題。我們通常會在今天所剩的時間內回答最相關的問題。

So let's start with our first question for you, John. It's about market conditions. Because of current events and market conditions that were previously unforeseen, how do you feel your stock price compares today with what your recent past expectations were? Do you believe you have a viable strategy to navigate these current issues to mitigate their impact?

那我們先問你第一個問題，約翰。這是與市場狀況有關的。由於當前事件和以前無法預見的市場狀況，您認為今天的股票價格與您最近的預期相比如何？您是否認為您有一個可行的策略來解決這些當前問題並減輕其影響？

Yes. Look, we definitely see the macro environment right now as one that we did not explicitly anticipate when we start to embark on this business, but it's one that we believe that we can navigate. It requires us to do things differently. And we're adjusting our plans as a result of this. it's obvious that we're constructing a significant amount of our equipment in Europe.

是的。看起來，我們確實看到當前的宏觀環境是我們在開始開展這項業務時沒有明確預料到的，但我們相信我們可以駕馭它。這要求我們以不同的方式做事。因此我們正在調整我們的計劃。顯然，我們在歐洲建造了大量設備。

Our customers are global. We expect to manufacture in the US. There are things that we can do to adjust if the trade conditions change, but that has an effect, right? That particular configuration is affected or appears like as though it will be affected by what's going on. That said, we think that the fundamentals of the business are effectively unchanged by the macro conditions.

我們的客戶遍佈全球。我們希望在美國進行生產。如果貿易條件發生變化，我們可以採取一些措施進行調整，但這會產生影響，對嗎？該特定配置受到影響或看起來好像會受到正在發生的事情的影響。儘管如此，我們認為宏觀條件實際上並沒有改變業務基本面。

We think that we're significantly undervalued right now. We think that we have been. We think that this technology has a lot of running room and is one that brings a lot of value to consumers and to our direct customers to major brands. And we think that there's nothing stopping us from executing on that. So we're excited about it.

我們認為，我們目前被嚴重低估了。我們認為我們已經這樣做了。我們認為這項技術具有很大的發展空間，可以為消費者以及主要品牌的直接客戶帶來許多價值。我們認為沒有什麼可以阻止我們實現這一目標。所以我們對此感到很興奮。

Great. Now the next question is it's similar to the question Frank asked, but slightly different, which is about sales pipeline. It asks, can you map out what the sales pipeline looks like from initial customer interaction to the signing of a definitive agreement?

偉大的。現在下一個問題與弗蘭克問的問題類似，但略有不同，是關於銷售管道的。它詢問你能否規劃出從最初的客戶互動到簽署最終協議的銷售管道是什麼樣的？

Yes. So really, there are a couple of different phases just to break it up simply. The first is there's customer interest and often that involves handling samples that are the appropriate format or demonstrative format for what they're interested in. They take a look at that. They look at it internally, they look at the specs of that product to see if it's going to match what they're looking for.

是的。因此實際上，有幾個不同的階段可以簡單地分解。首先是客戶的興趣，這通常涉及處理適合他們感興趣的格式或演示格式的樣品。他們看了看那個。他們進行內部審查，查看該產品的規格，看看它是否符合他們的要求。

At that point, they say yes, then we move to the next phase, which is this qualification phase that we've been describing.

此時，如果他們同意，那麼我們就進入下一個階段，也就是我們一直在描述的資格階段。

We think that, that qualification phase, as I described to Frank, can change quite a bit depending on the customer and actually depending on the specific application as well. not all bottles are created equal in terms of what they require from the cap and not all products are created equal. And so we move our way through that qualification process with the appropriate volumes and support, and we often get feedback as part of that qualification process as well, is great. That's how we get better is by getting feedback from our customers and then also obviously assessing things ourselves internally. That qualification process is the bulk of this.

我們認為，正如我向弗蘭克描述的那樣，資格認證階段可能會根據客戶的不同而發生很大變化，實際上也取決於具體的應用。並非所有的瓶子對於瓶蓋的要求都是一樣的，也並非所有的產品都是一樣的。因此，我們透過適當的數量和支援完成了資格認證流程，並且我們經常在資格認證流程中得到回饋，這很好。我們變得更好的方法就是從客戶那裡獲得回饋，然後當然也要進行內部評估。資格認定過程是其中的主要內容。

So the interest process is pretty quick. The qualification process tends to be longer, even when it's on the shorter end of the qualification types. It's still longer than the other two phases. And then the third is moving into a definitive agreement of some sort. We are very explicit as we go through that process, exactly what the numbers and pricing and volumes and ramp-up would be to deliver the product.

因此興趣的產生過程相當快速。資格認證過程往往比較長，即使是在資格認證類型中比較短的。它仍然比其他兩個階段更長。第三步是達成某種形式的最終協議。當我們經歷這個過程時，我們非常清楚交付產品的具體數量、價格、產量和提升幅度。

So that's something -- that's work that happens far before we sign a definitive agreement. And in fact, before we go into most of the qualification work. But that's sort of the way it breaks down: three phases, interest, qualification, and then signing of a definitive agreement of some sort.

所以，這是我們簽署最終協議之前就要進行的工作。事實上，在我們進行大部分資格認證工作之前。但其分解過程大致上是這樣的：三個階段，興趣、資格，然後簽署某種最終協議。

Great. All right. Next question. Given the demand that you've mentioned, this is a question about customers and customer selection. So the question is, how do you prioritize customers? What goes into that?

偉大的。好的。下一個問題。根據您提到的需求，這是一個關於客戶和客戶選擇的問題。那麼問題是，您如何對客戶進行優先排序？那是什麼呢？

Yes. So I think in our prepared remarks, we talked about a couple of different things, but there are a lot of differences between the customer types, and that leads to we sometimes -- tongue in cheek say it's sort of an artisanal balance or slate of customers that we want at this stage. We're balancing things like the volume that the customer demands the margin that we expect to get off of that particular cap, their deployment flexibility, some are more flexible than others.

是的。因此，我認為在我們準備好的評論中，我們談論了一些不同的事情，但是客戶類型之間存在著許多差異，這導致我們有時會開玩笑地說這是我們現階段想要的一種手工平衡或客戶名單。我們正在平衡諸如客戶需求量、我們預計從特定上限中獲得的利潤、部署靈活性等因素，有些部署比其他部署更靈活。

The technical expertise of the customer or partner because that can provide us with different kinds of information about what we can do better and how we can improve our product and our process as well. The credibility of course, of the customers and partners because the more credible they are, that allows us to continue to access even larger parts of the market.

客戶或合作夥伴的技術專長，因為這可以為我們提供不同類型的信息，告訴我們如何做得更好以及如何改進我們的產品和流程。當然是客戶和合作夥伴的可信度，因為他們越可信，我們就能繼續進入更大的市場。

And then finally, in a more strategic sense, what are the things that they can do to help us grow Origin and grow this platform and this technology. So we're looking at all of those things. I don't think there's an algorithmic ranking for -- if they score this, this, this and this and all those different categories, that means they're going to go to the top of the list. Balancing it is really a key part of what we're doing here.

最後，從更具策略性的角度來看，他們可以做哪些事情來幫助我們發展 Origin、發展這個平台和這項技術。所以我們正在關注所有這些事情。我不認為存在一個演算法排名——如果他們對這個、這個、這個和這個以及所有這些不同類別進行評分，那就意味著他們會排在清單的首位。平衡它確實是我們在這裡所做工作的關鍵部分。

Great. The next question an investor asks, consumers are used to color caps with printed labels. How are you thinking about tinting, embossing? How does that affect recycling? Can the cap be recycled with a bottle?

偉大的。投資人問的下一個問題是，消費者是否習慣帶有印刷標籤的彩色瓶蓋。您對著色和浮雕有什麼看法？這對回收有何影響？瓶蓋可以隨瓶子一起回收嗎？

Yes. So first, I think the overwhelming response we've gotten is that customers are excited about a clear cap. So having a clear cap or a clear part of packaging is something that obviously, the market wants and it's something that if you look at the sort of arc of packaging history, obviously, performance matters, but all else being equal, consumers like to buy products in a clear packaging. They want to look at the product, they don't want to look at the packaging for the most part. And so we see this as sort of another step in that direction of the packaging arc of history is towards another component -- a meaningful component of the product packaging being clear and transparent.

是的。首先，我認為我們得到的壓倒性反應是客戶對於明確的上限感到興奮。因此，擁有透明的瓶蓋或透明的包裝部分顯然是市場所希望的。如果你看看包裝歷史的發展軌跡，顯然性能很重要，但在其他條件相同的情況下，消費者喜歡購買透明包裝的產品。他們更願意看產品，而大多數情況下並不想看包裝。因此，我們認為這是包裝歷史發展曲線朝著另一個方向邁出的一步，即產品包裝的一個有意義的組成部分——清晰透明。

So you can see the product as the showcase instead of the package is the showcase. That said, there are some really good ways that looks great because I've seen the mockups, took color and emboss our caps to have some great, highly differentiated looks to them. So a particular brand or products can really differentiate themselves with the way that our cap looks on that product.

因此，你可以將產品視為展示，而不是包裝是展示。也就是說，確實有一些非常好的方法看起來很棒，因為我已經看到了模型，給我們的帽子上色並壓花，使它們看起來很棒，高度差異化。因此，特定的品牌或產品可以透過產品瓶蓋的外觀來區分自己。

What's important to us, though, even as we look at those kinds of differentiated appearances is that the cap can still be recycled. So if we're dying the PET with a material or -- with something that can't come out or that stays colored, then that's going to restrict the ability to recycle that as effectively.

然而，對我們來說重要的是，即使我們看到這些差異化的外觀，瓶蓋仍然可以回收。因此，如果我們用某種材料或某種無法染色或保留顏色的東西來染色 PET 染色，那麼這將限制有效回收的能力。

It's mission critical to us that our caps are recyclable in the existing recycling stream. And in fact, what we're trying to do is increase the value of the recycling stream, not decrease it. And so we have some really, really good ways to introduced color in part color and patterns onto the caps that look great, that don't impact the recycling stream on the other side of the use of the product.

對我們來說，確保我們的瓶蓋能夠在現有的回收流程中回收至關重要。事實上，我們正​​在努力提高回收流的價值，而不是降低它的價值。因此，我們有一些非常非常好的方法，將顏色和圖案引入看起來很棒的瓶蓋上，並且不會影響產品使用另一端的回收流。

So we're excited about that. We've got answers. We don't think we need them yet. And we also -- we think that the clear cap just looks great, and that's what everybody tells us. So we're listening to that.

我們對此感到很興奮。我們有答案。我們認為我們目前還不需要它們。而且我們也認為透明的蓋子看起來很棒，每個人都這麼告訴我們。所以我們正在聽這個。

Great. Next question. If your manufacturing process enables cost advantages as cap size increases, why did you start with the bottle caps as opposed to working down from larger formats?

偉大的。下一個問題。如果您的製造流程能夠隨著瓶蓋尺寸的增加而帶來成本優勢，那麼為什麼您從瓶蓋開始，而不是從更大的尺寸開始呢？

The short version is that our customers ask for it. So we saw from the beginning, a really strong demand for the 1881 format. There are a whole bunch of reasons for it. But 1881, it's a huge market. Our customers wanted it.

簡而言之，我們的客戶要求這樣做。因此，我們從一開始就看到對 1881 格式的需求非常強烈。這其中的原因有很多。但 1881 年，這是一個巨大的市場。我們的顧客想要它。

And we think that our solution is a really good solution for 1881 as well. So we think that's a great spot to be. There are other benefits that come with the large-format caps we want to access those as well. And because of the flexibility of the technology that we've developed, the platform we've developed, we think we can go after both without there being much sacrifice between the 2.

我們認為我們的解決方案對於 1881 來說也是一個非常好的解決方案。因此我們認為這是一個絕佳地點。大尺寸瓶蓋還有其他優勢，我們也希望能利用這些優勢。而且由於我們開發的技術和平台的靈活性，我們認為我們可以同時追求這兩者而不需要做出太多的犧牲。

Great. Next question. What is the main bottleneck or constraint to bringing CapFormer lines online?

偉大的。下一個問題。CapFormer 生產線上線的主要瓶頸或限制因素是什麼？

Yeah. So for 2025, that's mostly set everything is in process. It's moving. Our suppliers are spun up. They're targeting a certain number of machines, and our team is geared to deliver those machines on the ground and then start operating them.

是的。所以對於 2025 年來說，一切基本上都已確定，正在按計劃進行。它在移動。我們的供應商已經加速發展。他們的目標是一定數量的機器，我們的團隊負責將這些機器運送到地面並開始操作它們。

So really, as we look at bottlenecks, we're talking more about 2026. As we look at 2026, the key really is balancing our cost of capital with the rate at which we deploy cap forming lines. And our suppliers for these cap forming lines have the ability to deliver more machines.

因此，當我們審視瓶頸時，我們實際上更多地談論的是 2026 年。展望2026年，關鍵在於平衡我們的資本成本和部署上限形成線的速度。而且我們的這些瓶蓋成型生產線的供應商有能力提供更多的機器。

Our customers want more caps. And our view is that we're going to continue to derisk the technology, make it clear that this works the way that we say it works that customers want the product that the margins are acceptable for financing. And then that will enable us to access cheaper capital. We can use that capital to grow faster.

我們的客戶想要更多的帽子。我們的觀點是，我們將繼續降低技術風險，並明確表示這項技術是按照我們所說的方式運作的，客戶想要利潤率可以接受融資的產品。這樣我們就能獲得更便宜的資本。我們可以利用這些資本來更快發展。

So we're excited to do that. But given macro market conditions and the nature of this kind of business development, we don't know exactly when that inflection point is going to get reached. And so we're going to have to see.

所以我們很高興這麼做。但考慮到宏觀市場條件和此類業務發展的性質，我們不知道這個拐點何時會到來。因此我們還需要拭目以待。

We believe it's in '25. We think it's soon. We don't know exactly when it's going to be. And so we view 2026 CapFormer deployment is mostly capital limited. As we can remove that constraint or reduce that constraint, we expect that we're going to be able to deploy more CapFormers.

我們認為是在'25年。我們認為很快。我們不知道具體什麼時候會發生。因此，我們認為 2026 年 CapFormer 的部署主要受到資本限制。由於我們可以消除或減少該限制，我們期望能夠部署更多的 CapFormers。

Right. Can you speak a little bit about CapFormer 1's performance and then also talk about improving performance in future CapFormers?

正確的。您能否談談 CapFormer 1 的效能並談談未來 CapFormer 效能的改進？

Yes. CapFormer 1 has been doing a great job. Frankly, we're really impressed with how well the system performed right out of the box. There were minimal adjustments that needed to be made to sort of tune it or bring it back into stack with what we did during the FAT.

是的。CapFormer 1 一直表現出色。坦白說，該系統的開箱即用性能確實給我們留下了深刻的印象。需要進行最少的調整來對其進行調整或使其回到我們在 FAT 期間所做的事情的堆疊中。

We think that our suppliers just did a fantastic job, not only from the packing a complex equipment like this, but also sending their teams to work with us to bring them back online. Just really, really impressive overall. And we're excited with the way that we're able to iterate on that machine at recite.

我們認為我們的供應商做得非常出色，他們不僅包裝瞭如此複雜的設備，還派出了他們的團隊與我們合作，使設備恢復正常運作。整體來說真的非常令人印象深刻。我們對能夠在該機器上進行迭代的方式感到非常興奮。

So some of the technology improvements that we've described, those are coming from very specific modifications that we want to keep making and introducing over time on our existing lines and then also on future lines. And so at Reed City, what's wonderful is that we have the ability to machine things and make modifications almost in real time as we do this. And so we have really focused on the ability to make those changes quickly.

因此，我們所描述的一些技術改進都來自於非常具體的修改，我們希望隨著時間的推移，這些修改將繼續在現有生產線上以及未來的生產線上進行和引入。在里德城，最棒的一點就是我們有能力對物品進行機械加工，並且幾乎是即時地做出修改。因此，我們真正專注於快速進行這些變革的能力。

We're seeing great performance off of the line so far, and we're excited to really drive continuous improvement across CapFormer line 1, but then all of our future lines as well.

到目前為止，我們看到了生產線的出色表現，我們很高興能夠真正推動 CapFormer 1 號生產線的持續改進，而我們未來的所有生產線也將如此。

Great. All right. Now this next question is going to be one for Matt. Matt, you talked a little bit about cash burn in the Q&A, but the question is, what is your financing plan for 2025 and 2026, given the need to ramp manufacturing lines in that timeframe?

偉大的。好的。下一個問題是問馬特的。馬特，您在問答環節談到了一些現金消耗問題，但問題是，考慮到需要在這段時間內增加生產線，您對 2025 年和 2026 年的融資計劃是什麼？

Yes. Thanks, Ryan. And yes, this might be a little bit repetitive as I think about this response in terms of what Frank asked, but I think it's good, and I appreciate the simplicity of this question because it allows me to dial the lens back and answer with kind of a macro view of our financial strategy, which really is pretty simple and straightforward.

是的。謝謝，瑞安。是的，當我根據弗蘭克提出的問題來思考這個回答時，這可能有點重複，但我認為這很好，我很欣賞這個問題的簡單性，因為它允許我回溯鏡頭，並以我們財務戰略的宏觀視角來回答，這真的非常簡單明了。

So in addition to utilizing the existing capital on our balance sheet, we're securing equipment-based debt financing, as I outlined on the call, a portion of which we've already secured and the rest we continue to curate amongst a number of other lenders. And so with those two sources of cash, we have what we need to both fund our operations and build out the eight CapFormer lines, which we expect to propel us into 2026 with, as we said, significant revenue, margin and cash from operations on a run rate basis before the end of the year.

因此，除了利用我們資產負債表上的現有資本外，我們還在獲得基於設備的債務融資，正如我在電話會議上概述的那樣，其中一部分我們已經獲得，其餘部分我們繼續在其他一些貸方之間進行協調。因此，有了這兩筆現金來源，我們就有了所需的資金來資助我們的營運並建造八條 CapFormer 生產線，我們預計這將推動我們進入 2026 年，正如我們所說的那樣，在年底之前按運行率計算，實現可觀的收入、利潤和營運現金。

Great. All right. For this last question, I'm going to throw it back to John and just ask, what do we have to get excited about as we look to the future?

偉大的。好的。對於最後一個問題，我將把它拋回給約翰，只想問，當我們展望未來時，我們有什麼值得興奮的？

Yes. Look, I think the exciting things are the underlying business fundamentals. We've got incredibly strong demand. We're looking forward to building capacity over the course of 2025, at which point we're going to have really quite meaningful production capacity by the end of the year and then rolling into '26 and continue to expand that.

是的。看，我認為令人興奮的事情是潛在的商業基礎。我們的需求異常強勁。我們期待在 2025 年期間建立產能，屆時我們將在年底前擁有相當有意義的生產能力，然後進入 2026 年並繼續擴大產能。

We've got three CapFormer in process that are going to land in Q2 or factory test in Q2. We're shipping caps to customers we're expecting caps on shelves, well, on product on shelves soon. And we're excited to share some customer names in the weeks and months ahead. So we're stoked.

我們有三個 CapFormer 正在開發中，它們將在第二季上市或進行工廠測試。我們正在將帽子運送給客戶，希望帽子能盡快上架，產品也能盡快上架。我們很高興在未來幾週和幾個月內分享一些客戶的名字。所以我們很興奮。

That's great. Thank you, John. Thank you to everyone who joined and everyone who sent in questions. We look forward to our next update. And this concludes our call for the day.

那太棒了。謝謝你，約翰。感謝所有參加的人和所有提出問題的人。我們期待下次更新。今天的通話到此結束。