NuStar Energy LP (NS) 2023 Q3 法說會逐字稿

Good day, and thank you for standing by. Welcome to the NuStar Energy LP Third Quarter 2023 Earnings Conference Call. (Operator Instructions) Please be advised today's conference is being recorded.

美好的一天，感謝您的支持。歡迎參加 NuStar Energy LP 2023 年第三季財報電話會議。 （操作員指示）請注意，今天的會議正在錄製中。

I would now like to turn the conference over to your speaker today, Pam Schmidt, Vice President of Investor Relations. Please go ahead.

現在，我想將會議交給今天的發言人，投資者關係副總裁 Pam Schmidt。請繼續。

Good morning, and welcome to today's call. On the call today are NuStar Energy LP's Chairman and CEO, Brad Barron; our Executive Vice President and CFO, Tom Shoaf; and our Executive Vice President of Business Development and Engineering, Danny Oliver, as well as other members of our management team.

早上好，歡迎參加今天的電話會議。今天參加電話會議的是 NuStar Energy LP 董事長兼執行長 Brad Barron；我們的執行副總裁兼財務長 Tom Shoaf；以及我們的業務開發和工程執行副總裁 Danny Oliver 以及我們管理團隊的其他成員。

Before we get started, we would like to remind you that during the course of this call, NuStar management will make statements about our current views concerning the future performance of NuStar that are forward-looking statements. These statements are subject to the various risks, uncertainties and assumptions described in our filings with the Securities and Exchange Commission. Actual results may differ materially from those described in the forward-looking statements.

在我們開始之前，我們想提醒您，在本次電話會議期間，NuStar 管理層將就我們目前對 NuStar 未來業績的看法發表前瞻性聲明。這些聲明受到我們向美國證券交易委員會提交的文件中所述的各種風險、不確定性和假設的影響。實際結果可能與前瞻性陳述中所述的結果有重大差異。

During the course of this call, we will also refer to certain non-GAAP financial measures. These non-GAAP financial measures should not be considered as alternatives to GAAP measures. Reconciliations of certain of these non-GAAP financial measures to U.S. GAAP may be found in our earnings press release and, if applicable, additional reconciliations may be located on the Financials page of the Investors section of our website at nustarenergy.com.

在本次電話會議期間，我們也將提及某些非公認會計準則財務指標。這些非 GAAP 財務指標不應被視為 GAAP 指標的替代品。這些非 GAAP 財務指標與美國 GAAP 的調整表可在我們的收益新聞稿中找到，如果適用，其他調節表可位於我們網站 nustarenergy.com 投資者部分的財務頁面。

With that, I will turn the call over to Brad.

這樣，我會將電話轉給布拉德。

Good morning. Thank you all for joining us today here about our solid quarterly results, our progress on our strategic initiatives and our positive outlook for the rest of 2023.

早安.感謝大家今天在這裡與我們一起了解我們穩健的季度業績、戰略計劃的進展以及我們對 2023 年剩餘時間的積極展望。

Let's get started with a few highlights of our third quarter. We generated $180 million of total EBITDA in the third quarter, up $2 million compared to the third quarter of '22 EBITDA of $178 million. Our pipeline segment EBITDA was up almost 10% in the third quarter compared to the same period in 2022.

讓我們從第三季的一些亮點開始。我們第三季的 EBITDA 總額為 1.8 億美元，比 2022 年第三季的 1.78 億美元增加了 200 萬美元。與 2022 年同期相比，第三季我們的管線部門 EBITDA 成長了近 10%。

Our refined product systems, along with our ammonia system, continued to generate solid dependable revenue in the third quarter. And total throughputs were up around 7% compared to the same period in 2022, reflecting the strength of these assets and our strong position in the markets we serve in the Mid-Continent and throughout Texas.

我們的精煉產品系統以及氨系統在第三季繼續產生穩定可靠的收入。與 2022 年同期相比，總吞吐量成長了約 7%，反映了這些資產的實力以及我們在中大陸和整個德克薩斯州所服務的市場中的強大地位。

Our McKee system performed well with higher revenues and throughputs versus the same period last year, and our Three Rivers refined product system also saw increased revenues and throughputs over 3Q '22. In addition, almost all our pipeline systems benefited from annual rate escalations linked either to the FERC index or the producer price index.

我們的 McKee 系統表現良好，營收和吞吐量較去年同期有所提高，我們的三河精煉產品系統也比 2022 年第三季營收和吞吐量增加。此外，我們幾乎所有的管道系統都受益於與 FERC 指數或生產者物價指數相關的年度費率上漲。

Moving on to our Permian Crude System. Our Permian Crude Systems volumes averaged 523,000 barrels per day, down compared to the same quarter last year, but up versus volumes of 508,000 barrels per day in the second quarter of 2023. As we said on prior calls, our Permian volumes so far in '23 have reflected some producer-specific operational issues and delays. But as some of those issues have been resolved, we've seen October volumes average 533,000 barrels per day, and we now expect our fourth quarter average to be around 540,000 barrels per day. We also expect the system's full year '23 revenue to come in comparable to 2022.

繼續我們的二疊紀原油系統。我們的二疊紀原油系統日均產量為523,000 桶，與去年同期相比有所下降，但與2023 年第二季度的508,000 桶/日相比有所增加。正如我們在之前的電話會議中所說，我們的二疊紀原油系統迄今為止的產量處於「 23 反映了一些生產商特定的營運問題和延誤。但隨著其中一些問題得到解決，我們看到 10 月份的平均產量為每天 533,000 桶，我們現在預計第四季度的平均產量約為每天 540,000 桶。我們也預計該系統 23 年全年收入將與 2022 年相當。

Turning to our fuels marketing segment. After a near record breaking '22, our fuels marketing segment has turned in another strong quarter, generating $8 million of EBITDA in the third quarter of '23, comparable to the segment's strong quarter, third quarter '22 results.

轉向我們的燃料行銷部門。在22 年幾乎打破紀錄之後，我們的燃料行銷部門迎來了另一個強勁的季度，在23 年第三季度產生了800 萬美元的EBITDA，與該部門在22 年第三季度的強勁業績相當。

With that, a few observations about 2023 before I turn it over to Tom. Looking to the full year 2023 for our business as a whole, even though macroeconomic uncertainty has persisted so far this year, NuStar expects to generate total adjusted EBITDA of $720 million to $740 million. After spending several years working hard to derisk our business, strengthen our balance sheet and reduce our leverage, we have successfully completed our plan to redeem the Series D preferred about 2 years ahead of our original schedule. Once again, in 2023, we expect to self-fund all of our OpEx, all of our growth capital and our distributions. And we also continue to target finishing the year with a healthy debt-to-EBITDA ratio below 4x.

在我將 2023 年轉交給 Tom 之前，我先談幾點看法。展望 2023 年整個業務，儘管今年迄今宏觀經濟不確定性依然存在，NuStar 預計調整後 EBITDA 總額將達到 7.2 億至 7.4 億美元。經過幾年努力降低業務風險、強化資產負債表並降低槓桿率，我們比原定計劃提前了大約兩年，成功完成了 D 輪優先股的贖回計劃。到 2023 年，我們預計將再次自籌所有營運支出、所有成長資本和分配資金。我們也繼續目標是在今年結束時將債務與 EBITDA 比率控制在 4 倍以下。

With that, I'll turn the call over to Tom.

這樣，我就把電話轉給湯姆。

Thanks, Brad, and good morning, everyone. As Brad mentioned, our third quarter 2023 EBITDA of $180 million was up $2 million compared to the third quarter '22 EBITDA of $178 million. Our third quarter 2023 adjusted DCF was $93 million, and our adjusted distribution coverage ratio was 1.84x.

謝謝布拉德，大家早安。正如 Brad 所提到的，我們 2023 年第三季的 EBITDA 為 1.8 億美元，比 22 年第三季的 1.78 億美元增加了 200 萬美元。 2023 年第三季調整後 DCF 為 9,300 萬美元，調整後分配覆蓋率為 1.84 倍。

Now turning to our segments. In the third quarter '23, our pipeline segment generated $170 million of EBITDA, up $15 million or around 10% over third quarter '22 EBITDA of $155 million, thanks in a large part to our refined product systems including our McKee System pipelines and our Three River system pipelines as well as annual rate escalations.

現在轉向我們的細分市場。在23 年第三季度，我們的管道部門產生了1.7 億美元的EBITDA，比22 年第三季度1.55 億美元的EBITDA 增長了1500 萬美元，即10% 左右，這在很大程度上要歸功於我們的精緻產品系統，包括McKee System 管道和三河系統管道以及年費率升等。

Turning next to our storage segment. Our EBITDA for third quarter '23 was $36 million, which is about $5 million lower than the third quarter '22 EBITDA. That decrease was mostly due to an amendment and extension of our customer contract at our Corpus Christi North Beach terminal and customer transitions and required tank maintenance at our St. James terminal, as we've talked about before.

接下來轉向我們的儲存部分。我們 23 年第三季的 EBITDA 為 3,600 萬美元，比 22 年第三季的 EBITDA 低約 500 萬美元。這一下降主要是由於我們在科珀斯克里斯蒂北海灘碼頭的客戶合約的修改和延期以及客戶的過渡以及我們聖詹姆斯碼頭所需的儲罐維護，正如我們之前討論過的。

But that was offset by yet another quarter of solid performance from our West Coast region, where due to our West Coast renewable fuel strategy, we handled a large portion of the region's renewable fuels and our renewable fuels logistics network. In the third quarter, thanks to the renewable fuels market leadership we have built over the years, our West Coast region generated 16% higher revenues than in the third quarter of '22.

但這被我們西海岸地區又一個季度的穩健表現所抵消，由於我們的西海岸可再生燃料戰略，我們處理了該地區大部分的可再生燃料和我們的可再生燃料物流網絡。第三季度，由於我們多年來建立的可再生燃料市場領導地位，我們西海岸地區的收入比 2022 年第三季高出 16%。

Our fuels marketing segment, which had a near record breaking year in '22, continued to deliver great results in the third quarter. Fuels Marketing generated $8 million of EBITDA, which is comparable to the segment's strong showing in the third quarter of '22 and driven by strong margins.

我們的燃料行銷部門在 22 年幾乎創下了紀錄，並在第三季繼續取得了良好的業績。燃料行銷部門產生了 800 萬美元的 EBITDA，與該部門 22 年第三季的強勁表現相當，並受到強勁利潤的推動。

I'm also pleased to report on our continued progress in building our financial strength and flexibility. Over the past few years, we have utilized cash flows, proceeds from asset sales and monetization of our corporate real estate to continue to reduce debt balances, which enabled us to repurchase about 2/3 of our Series D preferred units through July of this year.

我還很高興地報告我們在增強財務實力和靈活性方面所取得的持續進展。在過去的幾年裡，我們利用現金流、資產出售收益和公司房地產貨幣化來繼續減少債務餘額，這使我們能夠在今年 7 月之前回購約 2/3 的 D 系列優先股。 。

And in August, we successfully issued common equity raising $222 million net of fees, which we applied towards the redemption of the remaining $8.3 million outstanding Series D preferred in September. We redeemed all the Series D over 1 year ahead of our previously announced target while maintaining our debt-to-EBITDA ratio below 4x.

8 月份，我們成功發行普通股，籌集了 2.22 億美元（扣除費用），並用於贖回 9 月份剩餘的 830 萬美元未償 D 系列優先股。我們比先前宣布的目標提前一年贖回了所有 D 輪融資，同時將債務與 EBITDA 比率維持在 4 倍以下。

We ended third quarter '23 with a debt-to-EBITDA ratio of 3.83x with $665 million available on our $1 billion unsecured revolving credit facility, and we believe the elimination of the Series D preferred units from our cap structure gives us the flexibility to focus on strategic investments, such as our organic growth projects related to our renewable fuels and ammonia assets and further delevering. And that strategy has already produced some fruit. After the September redemption of the Series D preferred units, Fitch upgraded our credit rating by 1 notch to BB while S&P Global upgraded their rating outlook from stable to positive.

截至23 年第三季度，我們的債務與EBITDA 比率為3.83 倍，我們的10 億美元無擔保循環信貸額度可提供6.65 億美元，我們相信從我們的上限結構中消除D 系列優先單位使我們能夠靈活地專注於策略性投資，例如與再生燃料和氨資產相關的有機成長項目以及進一步去槓桿化。這一戰略已經取得了一些成果。在 9 月贖回 D 系列優先單位後，惠譽將我們的信用評級上調 1 級至 BB，而標準普爾全球將其評級展望從穩定上調至正面。

Moving now to our outlook for '23. As Brad mentioned, for full year, we expect to generate adjusted EBITDA in the range of $720 million to $740 million. We now plan to spend $120 million to $130 million on strategic capital in 2023. We continue to expect spending for our Permian system to be in the range of $35 million to $45 million, and we continue to expect to spend around $25 million to expand our West Coast renewable fuels network as well as around $25 million on projects for our ammonia pipeline.

現在轉向我們對 '23 的展望。正如 Brad 所提到的，我們預計全年調整後的 EBITDA 將在 7.2 億至 7.4 億美元之間。我們現在計劃在2023 年花費1.2 億至1.3 億美元用於戰略資本。我們仍然預計二疊紀系統的支出將在3,500 萬至4,500 萬美元之間，並且我們繼續預計將花費約2,500 萬美元來擴大我們的業務。西海岸可再生燃料網路以及約 2500 萬美元的氨管道項目。

Turning to reliability capital. We expect to spend between $25 million to $30 million on reliability in 23 million. And even with the acceleration of our Series D redemptions in '23, we're still targeting to finish the year with a healthy debt-to-EBITDA ratio below 4x.

轉向可靠性資本。我們預計將花費 2,500 萬至 3,000 萬美元來提高 2,300 萬台的可靠性。即使我們在 23 年加速了 D 系列贖回，我們的目標仍然是在今年結束時將債務與 EBITDA 比率保持在 4 倍以下。

With that, I'll turn the call back over to Brad.

這樣，我會將電話轉回給布拉德。

Thanks, Tom. As you've heard, we had a solid third quarter and we're on track to deliver solid results for 2023. We're also pleased with the outlook and opportunities we see on the horizon for NuStar for 2024 and beyond, especially for the growth potential we see for low-carbon ammonia on our ammonia pipeline system and for future storage and export at our St. James facility.

謝謝，湯姆。正如您所聽說的，我們第三季度業績表現強勁，並且預計在 2023 年實現穩健的業績。我們也對 NuStar 2024 年及以後的前景和機會感到滿意，特別是對於我們看到我們的氨管道系統中的低碳氨以及聖詹姆斯工廠未來的儲存和出口的成長潛力。

We told you about our connection to our ammonia system to OCI state-of-the-art ammonia products facility in Iowa, which is on track to be in service in January. We expect this healthy return, low capital project to begin meaningfully increasing utilization on our system.

我們向您介紹了我們的氨系統與愛荷華州 OCI 最先進的氨產品設施的連接，該設施預計將於 1 月投入使用。我們期望這個健康回報、低資本的項目將開始有意義地提高我們系統的使用率。

In addition to that connection, in early 2024, we expect to announce a project for a large global ammonia producer. And we are continuing to advance a number of other promising projects to provide transportation, storage and export for low-carbon ammonia.

除此之外，我們預計將在 2024 年初宣布一個針對全球大型氨生產商的專案。我們正在繼續推進一些其他有前景的項目，為低碳氨提供運輸、儲存和出口。

Similar to our renewable fuel strategy on the West Coast, where we have built and continue to augment our renewable fuels logistics network that has made us a leader in the region, we expect these low-multiple, high-return, low-carbon ammonia projects will position NuStar as the premier low-carbon ammonia logistics provider in the U.S. and provide a significant platform for strong organic growth over the next half decade. Rest assured, though, we are committed to our core strategic priorities: maximizing our free cash flow, maintaining our healthy debt metric and providing the safest and most reliable transportation and storage of the essential energy that fuels our lives.

與我們在西海岸的可再生燃料策略類似，我們在那裡建立並繼續擴大我們的可再生燃料物流網絡，使我們成為該地區的領導者，我們預計這些低倍數、高回報、低碳氨項目將使NuStar 成為美國首屈一指的低碳氨物流供應商，並為未來五年的強勁有機成長提供重要平台。不過，請放心，我們致力於我們的核心戰略優先事項：最大限度地提高我們的自由現金流，保持健康的債務指標，並為我們的生活提供最安全、最可靠的基本能源運輸和儲存。

With that, I'll open up the call for Q&A.

接下來，我將開啟問答環節。

(Operator Instructions) Our first question comes from Doug Irwin, Citi.

（操作員說明）我們的第一個問題來自花旗銀行的 Doug Irwin。

I just want to start with the balance sheet. You mentioned the Series D paydown kind of allowing for some further delevering and obviously great to see the recent rating agency upgrades. Can you maybe just talk about where you want to see leverage kind of longer term? And as you have these discussions with the rating agencies, is there a certain leverage target that maybe comes up in those discussions as well that you're trying to hit?

我只想從資產負債表開始。您提到 D 輪付款有點允許進一步去槓桿化，顯然很高興看到最近評級機構的升級。您能否談談您希望看到長期槓桿作用在哪裡？當您與評級機構進行這些討論時，在這些討論中是否可能會出現您想要達到的某個槓桿目標？

Yes, it's a good question. Certainly, we've spent many years on our delevering efforts and very successful. And all that was having the Series D redemption in mind and giving us enough headroom to do that. That's behind us now. But we're not going to stop there. We're going to continuing our delevering efforts. We say we put out there a target of 4x or better, and I think that's where we need to be, certainly, what we're targeting today. So with that, I think we'll continue to work on that and make sure that happens. And so that's really kind of what our target is, I'd say, below 4x.

是的，這是一個好問題。當然，我們多年來一直致力於去槓桿化，並且非常成功。所有這一切都是為了D系列的救贖，並給我們足夠的空間來做到這一點。現在已經在我們身後了。但我們不會就此止步。我們將繼續努力去槓桿。我們說我們設定了 4 倍或更高的目標，我認為這就是我們需要達到的目標，當然，也是我們今天的目標。因此，我認為我們將繼續努力並確保實現這一目標。我想說，這確實是我們的目標，低於 4 倍。

Okay. Great. That's helpful. And then maybe my second question just on Permian volumes here. Great to see the rebound versus 2Q. It sounds like some of those operational issues are being resolved. And then as we think about the 540,000 barrel a day guidance you gave for the fourth quarter, can you maybe help frame the trajectory kind of into year-end there? Could we maybe still see an exit rate approaching that 570,000 to 600,000 barrel range you've talked about in the past? And kind of what are your expectations kind of into '24?

好的。偉大的。這很有幫助。也許我的第二個問題是關於二疊紀卷的。很高興看到與第二季相比的反彈。聽起來其中一些營運問題正在解決。然後，當我們考慮您為第四季度提供的每日 540,000 桶的指導時，您能否幫助制定年底的軌跡？我們是否仍會看到退出率接近您過去談到的 570,000 至 600,000 桶範圍？您對 24 世紀的期望是什麼？

Yes. I think we're going to be -- this is Danny by the way. We're going to be a little short on that exit rate, partly because of the -- we're starting from a lower point with some of the operational issues that we felt throughout the summer. But we're -- like we've mentioned, we expect to average about 540,000 but that exit rate is going to be somewhere between 545,000 to 550,000, most likely.

是的。我想我們會——順便說一句，這是丹尼。我們的退出率會有點不足，部分原因是——我們從較低的起點開始，解決了整個夏天我們感受到的一些營運問題。但正如我們所提到的，我們預計平均退出率約為 540,000 人，但退出率最有可能在 545,000 至 550,000 人之間。

Our next question comes from Jeremy Tonet with JPMorgan.

我們的下一個問題來自摩根大通的 Jeremy Tonet。

This is Noah on for Jeremy. Just one quick one for me. I wanted to touch on NuStar's interest rate sensitivity. How has NuStar been affected by an increase in interest rates? And does the business have any offsets to handle an increase in rates?

這是諾亞為傑瑞米發言。對我來說只是一個快速的。我想談談 NuStar 的利率敏感度。利率上升對 NuStar 有何影響？企業是否有任何抵銷措施來應對費率上漲？

Yes. I mean we have been impacted by increased interest rates. Primarily the lion's share comes from our hybrids, they're floating rate securities. So we have seen the rates climb up on those. And so we have seen our interest expense increase year-over-year. And that is built into all the guidance that we have out there. So we have factored that in.

是的。我的意思是我們受到了利率上升的影響。大部分份額主要來自我們的混合證券，它們是浮動利率證券。所以我們看到這些利率正在上升。因此，我們看到我們的利息支出逐年增加。這已納入我們現有的所有指導中。所以我們已經考慮到了這一點。

Offsets, yes, I mean you do have obviously offsets to that in the business itself, primarily some of the other efforts we've done to reduce spending and things like that and capital. So there are offsets. We realize that interest rates have climbed, and we're doing what we can to manage all that and make sure that we continue to do that.

抵消，是的，我的意思是，你確實對業務本身有明顯的抵消，主要是我們為減少支出以及類似的事情和資本所做的一些其他努力。所以存在偏移。我們意識到利率已經上升，我們正在盡我們所能管理這一切，並確保我們繼續這樣做。

And specifically, the FERC indexing, we got a pretty good benefit from the FERC indexing on our pipeline segments and also in some of our storage assets as well. So definitely offsets to that. So I would say we're overly concerned. We are looking at it. We are monitoring it, and we'll just see what happens with rates going forward.

具體來說，FERC 索引，我們從管道段以及一些儲存資產的 FERC 索引中獲得了相當大的好處。所以肯定會抵消這一點。所以我想說我們太擔心了。我們正在研究它。我們正在監控它，我們只會看看未來利率會發生什麼。

Our next question comes from Gabriel Moreen with Mizuho.

我們的下一個問題來自 Mizuho 的 Gabriel Moreen。

This is Chris Jeffrey on for Gabe. Maybe just looking at the storage results for the quarter and the release mentioned, customer -- the North Beach contract, customer transitions and St. James tank maintenance. Just curious as you're looking into 4Q, kind of where should we expect that level given those puts and takes? Should we kind of expect it to return to where it was 2Q, 1Q? Or what's kind of the run rate now?

我是克里斯傑弗裡 (Chris Jeffrey)，替補加布 (Gabe)。也許只是看看本季的儲存結果和發布提到的客戶——北灘合約、客戶轉換和聖詹姆斯儲罐維護。只是好奇，當您研究第四季度時，考慮到這些看跌期權和看跌期權，我們應該期望該水平在哪裡？我們是否應該期望它回到第二季、第一季的水平？或者說現在的運行率是多少？

I think there might be some slight improvement. Some of that has to do with the reset in our MVC levels in Corpus, and that will continue into Q4. But so far in Q4, we're seeing the volumes actually pick up. So back above MVC levels. So right now, I'm anticipating a better Q4, but we've still got a couple of months left to go.

我認為可能會有一些輕微的改善。其中一些與語料庫中 MVC 級別的重置有關，這將持續到第四季度。但到目前為止，第四季度，我們看到銷量實際上有所增加。所以回到 MVC 等級之上。所以現在，我預計第四季會更好，但我們還有幾個月的時間。

Great. And then maybe just looking at G&A for the quarter as well. There was kind of a modest jump in 3Q, which seems to be typical maybe in 4Q. There's a bit of a lift. I was just curious if that's a timing thing or related to the press takeout. Anything that we should be aware of there.

偉大的。然後也許也只關注本季的一般管理費用。第三季出現了適度的跳躍，似乎在第四季度很常見。有一點電梯。我只是好奇這是否是一個時間問題或與新聞外賣有關。我們應該注意的任何事情。

What line item was that?

那是什麼行項目？

G&A.

一般及行政費用。

G&A.

一般及行政費用。

Yes, G&A. Yes, we had an increase in G&A this quarter. Some of that is salary-related, comp-related type expenses, which are our normal annual increases and things that we see each year. Another piece of that would be our headquarters rent. You recall that part of the proceeds -- or all of the proceeds that we did when we monetized our headquarter building, we turned that into an operating lease. And so that kind of moves from -- since we were refinancing, that kind of moved into the G&A category. So you'd see an increase due to that as well. And professional fees were up a little bit as well in G&A.

是的，G&A。是的，本季我們的一般管理費用有所增加。其中一些是與工資相關、與補償相關的費用，這是我們正常的年度增長以及我們每年都會看到的事情。另一部分是我們總部的租金。您還記得我們將總部大樓貨幣化時獲得的部分收益或全部收益，我們將其轉變為經營租賃。因此，自從我們進行再融資以來，這種轉變就轉移到了一般行政費用類別。因此，您也會看到因此而增加。 G&A 的專業費用也略有上漲。

So I think it was just really a combination of those 3 things. And remember, on the headquarters lease, even though that has been reclassified, we actually get a benefit of that because the rate that we're paying on that lease is actually substantially less than what we could do in the bond market staying certainly less than the Series Ds that were out there, and we use those proceeds to redeem the Series D. So even though you have that we'll call it income statement category change where it kind of goes from interest expense or distributions up to this expense, you still have a savings there. It's just a reclassification thing.

所以我認為這實際上是這三件事的結合。請記住，在總部租約上，即使已被重新分類，我們實際上也從中受益，因為我們為該租約支付的利率實際上大大低於我們在債券市場上可以做的，肯定低於那裡的D系列，我們用這些收益來贖回D 系列。因此，即使您有我們稱之為損益表類別變化的情況，其中它從利息費用或分配到此費用，您那裡還有積蓄。這只是一個重新分類的事情。

Got it. And then maybe just to look -- ask the Permian question in a different way. Just kind of how you're thinking of the capital for '24 compared to that 35 to 45 for this year. And is that similarly flexible based on kind of how the volume progresses for the year?

知道了。然後也許只是看看——以不同的方式問二疊紀問題。這就是你對 24 年資本與今年 35 至 45 年資本的看法。根據今年的銷售進度，這是否同樣具有彈性？

We haven't given any guidance yet in 2024, but I think we'll probably have some of that for you on the next call.

我們尚未在 2024 年給予任何指導，但我認為我們可能會在下次電話會議上為您提供一些指導。

Yes. What I would say is that, as we've said on every call, the capital and the Permian scale is up and down with volume. And so you can expect it to be -- if you have higher volume, we'll see a little bit higher capital for connection. Lower volume, you'll see an offset there, which is beneficial.

是的。我想說的是，正如我們在每次電話會議中所說的那樣，資本和二疊紀規模隨著交易量上下波動。所以你可以預期，如果你的交易量更大，我們會看到更多的連結資本。音量較低時，您會看到那裡有偏移，這是有益的。

(Operator Instructions) Our next question comes from Selman Akyol with Stifel.

（操作員說明）我們的下一個問題來自Selman Akyol 和Stifel。

Just a couple of quick ones for me. Just you guys talked about fuels marketing having a strong quarter, and I guess I'm just wondering how the outlook is for the fourth quarter going on.

對我來說只有幾個快速的。你們剛剛談到燃料行銷季度表現強勁，我想我只是想知道第四季的前景如何。

So I think there's -- right now, our full year outlook has us just below the near record year last year. I think there's some room for upside in Q4 given our current forecast, but just mostly around how much volume of butane will be able to get into the gasoline pool in the fourth quarter. But still seeing very strong margins in both our bunker marketing business and also butane blending.

所以我認為，目前我們的全年前景略低於去年接近創紀錄的水平。我認為，鑑於我們目前的預測，第四季還有一定的上漲空間，但主要取決於第四季將有多少丁烷進入汽油池。但我們的燃油行銷業務和丁烷混合業務的利潤率仍然非常高。

Got it. Appreciate that. And then I guess in the prepared comments, you guys talked about ammonia and you talked about strong organic growth over the next -- and I had several years written in my notes here. But I'm just kind of curious, you talked about $25 million of investments. And as you look out over the next several years, should we continue to think of investments into that being sort of the smaller chewable? Or as you look out and you see the growth in that business, is there going to be a real large project that's going to require a significant amount of capital?

知道了。感謝。然後我想在準備好的評論中，你們談到了氨，並談到了接下來的強勁有機增長——我在這裡的筆記中寫了幾年的內容。但我只是有點好奇，你談到了 2500 萬美元的投資。展望未來幾年，我們是否應該繼續考慮投資較小的咀嚼片？或者當您觀察並看到該業務的成長時，是否會有一個真正的大型專案需要大量資金？

Yes. No, I think the former. We've got a lot of operational leverage to work with, and that spend will be spread out over several years. We've got -- or a few years. We've got the OCI project. As Brad mentioned, we'll go into service in early '24 and that we've already announced. And then the blue and green projects that Brad was referring to, we'll go into service in kind of a '26, '27 time frame. So that spending will be spread out over 2 or 3 years.

是的。不，我認為是前者。我們有很多營運槓桿可以利用，這筆支出將分攤到幾年內。我們還有──或者說幾年。我們有 OCI 項目。正如 Brad 所提到的，我們將在 24 年初投入使用，並且我們已經宣布了這一點。然後布拉德提到的藍色和綠色項目，我們將在「26」、「27」的時間範圍內投入使用。因此，支出將分攤到兩三年內。

The thing that I would add to Danny's -- this is Brad. The think I would add to Danny's comments is because of the infrastructure that we have in the area, we're really focused on low multiple projects. And so I think we have several good small, low multiple projects and there's other opportunities to play further out as ammonia opportunity develops.

我要加到丹尼的——這是布拉德。我想在丹尼的評論中添加的想法是因為我們在該地區擁有的基礎設施，我們真正專注於低倍數項目。因此，我認為我們有幾個良好的小型、低倍數項目，並且隨著氨機會的發展，還有其他機會進一步發揮作用。

And I'm not showing any further questions at this time. I'd like to turn the call back over to Pam for any closing remarks.

目前我不會提出任何進一步的問題。我想將電話轉回給帕姆，讓其結束語。

Thank you, Kevin. We would once again like to thank everyone for joining us on the call today. If anyone has additional questions, please feel free to contact NuStar Investor Relations. Thanks again, and have a great day.

謝謝你，凱文。我們再次感謝大家今天加入我們的電話會議。如果任何人有其他問題，請隨時聯繫 NuStar 投資者關係部門。再次感謝，祝您有美好的一天。

Ladies and gentlemen, this does conclude today's presentation. You may now disconnect, and have a wonderful day.

女士們、先生們，今天的演講到此結束。您現在可以斷開連接，並度過美好的一天。