Merit Medical Systems Inc (MMSI) 2012 Q4 法說會逐字稿

Good afternoon ladies and gentlemen. Thank you for standing by. Welcome to the Merit Medical Systems Inc. fourth quarter and year-end 2012 earnings conference call. During today's presentation all parties will be in a listen-only mode. Following the presentation the conference will be open for questions. (Operator Instructions). I would now like to turn the conference over to Fred Lampropoulos, Chairman and CEO. Please go ahead sir.

Good afternoon ladies and gentlemen, and thank you for joining us. We are broadcasting from Salt Lake City and we'd like to begin our meeting today with having our Safe Harbor provision read by our General Counsel Rashelle Perry. Rashelle?

During our discussion today, reference may be made to projections, anticipated events or other information which is not purely historical. Please be aware that statements made in this call may be considered forward-looking statements. We caution you that all forward-looking statements involve risks, unanticipated events and uncertainties that could cause our actual results to differ materially from those anticipated in such statements.

Many of these risks are discussed in our Annual Report on Form 10-K and other reports and filings with the SEC available on our website. Any forward-looking statements made on this call are made only as of today's date and we do not assume any obligation to update such statements.

Although Merit's financial statements are prepared in accordance with accounting principles generally accepted in the United States, Merit's management believes that certain non-GAAP financial measures provide investors with useful information regarding underlying business trends and performance of Merit's ongoing operations, and can be useful for period over period comparisons of such operations. The table included in our release which will be discussed on this call set forth supplemental financial data and corresponding reconciliations to GAAP financial statements.

Investors should consider these non-GAAP measures in addition to financial reporting measures prepared in accordance with GAAP. These non-GAAP financial measures exclude some, but not all, items that affect net income.

Finally, these calculations may not be comparable with similarly titled (technical difficulty).

Thank you very much, and again, good afternoon ladies and gentlemen. Thank you for joining us.

You know we have a very complicated discussion today, including a lot of details and projections for the future and clarifications. So let me just start and do a little bit of a review of our year. We ended the year with revenues of $394 million, an increase of 10% over the previous year.

For the quarter we're up 12%. Just as a note there was a couple of million dollars -- $1.9 million or so that came into place in the last 12 days of the month from the Thomas acquisition, and that is included in this number. I'm going to ask Kent Stanger to kind of go through the GAAP and non-GAAP because there a lot of issues relative to the expenses of the Thomas deal. They are associated with that.

So Kent -- also there's the acquired inventory market costs that were in the fourth quarter. So there's a lot of complicated things here and I'll ask you, Kent, to go through and kind of clarify that for the group.

So Merit's non-GAAP income for the quarter [ended] -- fourth quarter was $6.2 million or $0.15 a share compared to $7.4 million or $0.18 a share for the quarter a year ago in 2011.

For the year, we were $30.8 million or $0.72 per share compared to nearly the same, $30.9 million or $0.78 a share, which is on fewer shares a year ago. So when we look at the GAAP net income, is where Fred was really talking about it gets interesting, because our earnings were $641,000 or $0.015 about, once it rounded to $0.01, compared to $5 million or $0.12 a year ago. And in that was two large adjustments we had, one which is in the non-GAAP adjustment is a $2.7 million for acquisition costs -- bankers, auditors, lawyers, and those kinds of things.

The other big adjustment was a write-off for an impairment of an advancement in a privately held Company which, net of tax, was $1.5 million. So those $3.7 million made a big difference, obviously, in our earnings compared to the prior year.

Okay, thanks Kent. And again I think the one little issue there on the impairment cost had to do with the investment that Merit made in an Irish company on a technology that we have actually transferred. And so Merit actually acquired the rights and is producing that product here. But the equity part of the investment was the part that we impaired. So I appreciate that.

You know in the fourth quarter, as you can imagine, we were very busy with all the work that is necessary to do a transaction. Let me address the Thomas medical transaction for you. It's been now about two months. Part of that, of course, was during the holiday and I'll tell you a little bit about what our thinking is today about the transaction.

I think that we continue to feel that Merit's entryway into the basket or access market via the cardiac rhythm management business is something that's very comfortable for us, both in terms of the technology, the personnel that we have brought along with the deal here and the opportunities worldwide. We have dispatched two Merit employees, longtime Merit employees to Malvern, Pennsylvania where they will act as the R&D capacity and the managing director of the facility to essentially Meritize the product.

We're convinced and believe, and I think the numbers will hold this, that the split-able, peel-able sheath is the gold standard worldwide. And I think that is clear and evident when it is being essentially utilized at all of our major large companies the big four, the big five, depending on your perspective.

Now one of the challenges is that there was a lot of product that was put into customers' hands in the fourth quarter. And if you could just think for a second about $1.9 million or so coming to us in just the last 10 days over Christmas, there was a lot of product that was moved forward. And it was a busy year for those guys.

Now that means in the first quarter, like you would have when people are trying to fulfill contract requirements for pricing reasons, that you're going to be a little dry. So it is a little bit slow and will have some effect in the first quarter in terms of the transaction.

But I think on the positive side, many of these accounts that are Merit accounts as well as belonging to the larger companies are starting to ask and convert to a direct method maybe faster than we had anticipated. And so Merit will meet our responsibility to our OEM customers, but at the same time we have a sales force of almost 200 people worldwide. And when customers ask us when those opportunities are available, it is our full attention to meet those needs of the customers. Clearly, when we do that, we get higher margins as well.

Now another thing we're doing is that the facilities in Malvern we're running three shifts. And so that was quite a difficult thing to develop new products. So we have no less than three or four new projects that we are moving forward on, that are improvements of our technology and products that you'll see this year and next year.

They have to do with steerable sheets. They have to do with improved split-able sheets. They have to do with non-valve sheets. They have to do with a number of other products, again, all essentially at our same call point. So we believe that this is a great opportunity for us.

And remember, these are accounts that we were calling on. These are EP labs in places where we're selling wires and trays and kits already, and now we're able to expand this on a more direct basis.

Also as a point of interest, and I think this is actually a very big deal, when we acquired the company we had certain manufacturing rights, certain products, but not distribution rights. Subsequent to closing the deal we've come to an agreement with one of our distribution partners in which we are now allowed to sell, under Merit's label, coronary sinus guides and to sell lateral vein introducers. Plus Merit's has two of our own products that we're now labeling under our brand for these products. These will roll out over the next 60 days.

This is kind of a big deal. Now we, again, have to compete with some of the big guys, but we've been doing it for a very, very long time. So I'm still very excited about this opportunity, about the technology, about the margins and those sorts of things.

But as a reminder in our first-quarter, it was a little dry in January. It's a little bit dry in February. And we think that this will start to accelerate as those pipelines that were full now start to empty out and have to be refilled, as well as Merit's bound direct effort worldwide.

I want to come back a little bit to our sales channels, and this is going to probably be along call today because there's lots to talk about. So I hope you're sitting back and you'll be patient with us.

In many ways, as we've discussed throughout the year, our international markets have been kind of the stellar areas for Merit. So we have areas, for instance, in Europe, where our direct sales force in Europe and when I think all of us would agree it's very difficult environment, although improving somewhat, on a local currency basis grew at 13.7%.

And I think -- it was looking at a competitor the other day and they had anticipated growth in the low single digits. So I mean when you compare this, this is pretty significant and I think talks about the investments that we've made in the past and how they've paid off.

Our Endotek division was kind of the star of the show. This year they grew at 32% and as I think it mentioned to you, this is a company or division that's been underwater. And we expect this year, because of a number of initiatives that we took, that this company will turn profitable and we're excited about the opportunities in this division.

Worldwide dealers -- we are talking about for the Pacific Rim, Central/South America, Canada, China grew at 32% last year. Even our Chinese business on a stand-alone basis grew at 28.7%. So I think our European dealers grew at almost 25%. So as you can see, much of our sales and our growth is coming from international markets.

Now we'll talk in a minute about what we think we will do to revitalize our domestic market, but I think that we're very pleased with that. That has a number of implications in terms of the device tax and so on and so forth, because those revenues are not taxed. So I wanted to kind of go through those sales divisions, and we would expect that we would see similar results this year, although we would expect to see a higher US direct sales number as well with new products.

Let me talk about a couple of businesses and things that we've not talked a whole lot about the past but we think are going to have a significant impact on the business. We have initiated production and sales of procedure packs in our Irish facility. Now some of you will remember several years ago when we bought a small little struggling company in Richmond, Virginia and that business is doing sales now in the [mid-30s].

And -- but I think more importantly, not only is that business profitable, but what it allows us to do in terms of pull-through, access to the accounts to sell all of our other products. And so in the last five years while that business was accelerating and growing in the 20%s and 30%s, our gross margins were accelerating as well even though generally you're going to see gross margins in that product to be almost half. Maybe a little more than half than what our overall business is. It does help to pull through all these other products.

So that business has started up in Ireland. It's in our new facility and we are excited about what that will do for us over time.

Now this year it's probably going to be $3 million to $4 million. Next year it will probably be $7 million or $8 million. But it's something that I think helps to pull along a lot of our other products.

Let me talk again for a minute about research and development and new products that Merit is introducing, because we think this is a very, very big deal for us going forward. We have the new ONE Snare. The ONE Snare is a snare that is complementary to our EN Snare.

It is a product that we are receiving rave reviews. It is essentially released in the US and European markets and being registered in international markets. And let me assure you that this is a complementary product.

In the snare business, you need both a three loop and a single loop. And to the best of my knowledge, Merit is the only company that can offer these products. And we've improved what had been in the market for 20 years, and I would expect that by the time we get through the end of this year on a ramp basis, that Merit will be the market leader.

We have about a 35% market share right now and I think we will grow their market share by over 50%. So that would put us over 50% on a ramp basis by the end of the year, so we're excited about that product.

We have a new product called the basixTOUCH. Now all of you know that Merit is the world leading later leader in inflation devices. And you also know that over the last 18 months Merit has introduced more inflation devices, including the Big60, which is used for dilatation of esophageal balloons.

You are aware of our Blue Diamond, you now have the basixTOUCH and now for the very first time mention the basixBOOST. Now I'll just mention it today, but it's a preview of coming attractions that has to do with [TAVI] procedures and it has to do with the valvuloplasty and the placement of AAA types of stent grafts. So that's something that I'll tease you with today, but I want to come back to the basixTOUCH.

The TOUCH is a device that we believe will sell at a premium. It is a device that holds over 30 ML of volume, has 35 different -- 35 atmospheres of pressure. And based on a count yesterday and a discussion about it, nine improvements, nine reasons and advantages over competitors. Nine -- not one, not three which we typically try to look for at least three, but nine distinct advantages.

This product will be CE marked by 1 March. We will file also on that very same day a special 510(k) which goes through a 30-day mandatory review. I can't speak to the issues of the FDA and their approval process but generally these things are accomplished in about 60 days.

That being said, in addition to that, we are going to be launching the PHD -- push, hold and deliver, and this is a new hemostatic valve that we'll be releasing in May. These are two very, very significant products that are going to generate millions and millions of dollars of revenue. And they're going to all have above average -- I'm talking about 60% to 80% gross margins, we believe, depending on the product.

And we believe based on the input from physicians and prospective customers that this is going to take substantial amount of market share, not cannibalize Merit's existing business but go out directly against our competitors to be, very honestly, there's no way they can compete with this product, it's that good. So that's something you can look forward to, it's on our doorstep and we're looking forward to that. So there's the basixTOUCH.

We will have a new aspiration catheter developed here at Merit. We have the new bearing PBA. It was a product that we developed from scratch out of our embolic division in Roissy, France to go along with our Embospheres and our HepaSpheres. And so that will be the first new product that's come out of that division, and we have several other embolics that are under development.

We have the Endomax EVT, esophageal stent that we will start selling. This is the stent that has the valve. We recently received approval for our Merit SureCross support catheter and that is being manufactured by one of our vendors for us. But Merit is the owner.

And a number of other products, I can look at the board, a snare system, I can look at the coronary sinus. The net of it is this; Merit has never had a portfolio of new products that ever even approaches the stuff that we're doing here.

We haven't even talked about our new hydro-fitted radial sheath that we have. And that radial sheath business for us last year grew faster than any other part of our business. I think it was 345% last year for our radial stent. So it was a huge opportunity.

We also have the coronary guide catheter called the Concierge. Well, you're probably getting tired of listening to this, but what I'm saying is we are loaded for bear.

Now let me move on and talk about the very challenges we have and then what our plan is and what our guidance is.

So, you're all aware of the challenges that are facing all medical device companies. Let me go over a few that Merit is facing. In this next year we are going to face interest expense of about $6.5 million to $7 million. This is essentially a new expense and this is associated with the purchase of money that we borrowed to acquire Thomas.

Because of the Thomas acquisition you're going to see amortization of intangibles. And Greg, I trust this is based on the new calculation, but give or take of about $6.4 million. The medical device tax is estimated at $4 million to $5 million.

And I will tell you that if our friends at the IRS will look at the check I signed recently, they will see a large teardrop because I'm still somewhat beside myself like everybody else is, in terms of the medical device tax and what it means to companies, essentially taking 20% to 25% of your after-tax profits. It's outrageous, but it is the law of the land. So businesses have to adjust.

We're still proceeding down the road of the clinical trial route with our QuadraSphere and our HCC study of doxorubicin, and other smaller expenses that we have associated with trials. We're going to have some moving expenses. I want to talk about our new facility and why we built these new facilities and what you can expect.

So, about every -- when we plan for facilities we plan for about five years ago -- five years. And it's been seven years since we built our last facilities and in the first year we were in that, we had lower gross margins as we were not being able to apply it and the building wasn't full. But part of why you saw gross margins increase every year is we became more efficient, we utilized the equipment and the facilities.

We have been I think relatively inefficient in that some of our production here in Salt Lake City is 5 miles away and we have to load up all the parts, we have to send them all the way down there, we have to handle them, send them all the way back here and that's inefficient. It's in a place where we started our business. And so what we've done is we've built a new facility that will come online in the first quarter and we'll work over the next six months as we shut down one of our satellite facilities and move that production here.

Now the question will be, and it's legitimate, why would you do this? I mean if you're going to have more expense, why wouldn't you just keep it where it is? Well, there is a couple of reasons.

One, we're not going to have enough room as we continue to grow. It's very inefficient because of the areas that -- and the distance and the people to handle all the materials.

This particular facility is one of the most advanced manufacturing facilities the world. And for those of you who have been to our molding area and to our automated shipping area, if you come here you'll see essentially the same thing. When a part is molded it will essentially go right into a fulfillment center, go on the floor, get produced into a product and go to the sterilizer.

It will come in one door and go out the other. We estimate that will be able to avoid hiring probably over 100 individuals as this comes online and we're able to either absorb those or eliminate those positions over the next year or so. It will take time to do this, because we cannot miss a customer's order so we'll move one cell at a time there. But we're going to have the additional expense of maintenance and security and heating and air conditioning in those sorts of things.

But once this thing gets online it will give us about five years or better of production capacity. And it will allow us to a eliminate and remove a lot of costs and make us much more competitive than the relatively inefficient way we've done as we started the business up and then built it out and have these facilities that are scattered over the Salt Lake Valley.

In addition to our campus here we have over 300 employees that work at other facilities just a few miles from here. And you have to have secretaries, you have to have receptionists, you have to have a lot of duplication, plus you have to have all the people that have the equipment. Enough said about this. It will come on here relatively shortly and a little bit at a time and it's going to be expensed.

Kent, I'm going to let you maybe just weigh in, if you want to, for a second.

Well, just that there's new facilities like you said, in that layer of overhead. At the beginning they're going to have to be allocated to SG&A so we did want to make people aware of that, that we'll see a bump in SG&A for the facilities that aren't in use yet during the time when they're not in production. As they come online in production it will transfer over and become overhead for production or cost of sales.

So we are going to see this $3 million to $4 million of new overhead laid in there, and over time we'll see efficiencies of sorting them out, both from the reduction of headcounts as you said and the increased volumes of production as we add new product lines and increase volumes at existing product lines.

So let me move on, then, now that we've kind of discussed the headwinds. They are interest expense, amortization of intangibles. They are the medical device tax and the clinical trials we're involved in. New facilities, moving expenses, there's a cost to that.

Inventory markup that we will have -- we had about $800,000 in the fourth quarter and then we'll have another $800,000 the first quarter and then we'll be done with it.

And then there's this pipeline issue that I discussed previously where there's a lot of stuff that got booked, not with us. We have a little bit of it, but then there was a lot of inventory out there and this will ramp up during the year. And of course it will be facilitated with Merit's direct sales both domestically and internationally.

So let me go then to our guidance and our thinking and our goals. We would like to, at this particular time, guide in revenues of $455 million to $465 million. So those are the numbers. That would give us an overall growth rate of 15% to 18% and a core growth rate of 7% to 9%.

I would like to point out that last year we gave a range of guidance for the year at $392 million to $402 million and we came in at just slightly above the low end of the range. But also a reminder that a portion of the year our Laureate Guide Wire was removed from the market, and we estimate that cost us about $4 million to $5 million in revenues last year. So we would have been right around at the midrange last year and we feel that these -- we're comfortable with these numbers.

Now, because of all of the new products there is opportunity for upside, but we feel comfortable with this particular sales guidance. Kent, I know that you and I were here -- and Greg, and Marty and all the guys who were involved here. I know that you've got -- actually don't look all that bad with black eye and that bad leg that you are walking on today.

But we battled this out and if you want to comment at all on these low -- on these numbers that you and I have agreed to.

So you would like me to go over the GAAP numbers --

Just, I want our investors to feel that this isn't just my number, that this is something that we as a Company -- this is a Company number.

With the expenses that Fred's outlined and challenges, we believe that we can get a GAAP EPS number of between $0.40 and $0.46 a share. When you can adjust many of these one-time costs and amortizations of intangibles, then you're able to, we think, get to $0.61 to $0.67 a non-GAAP basis.

Okay I'm going to leave it there and I will tell you that that is our official number.

I'm going to tell you personally that my goal this year is $0.72. So our guidance is $0.61 to $0.67. My goal is $0.72.

Let me tell you what we're doing to get there and let me tell you things that we've initiated to help to bring some of these ratios and percentages in line. Many of you are aware of the declines that we've seen. We've seen mostly increases in gross margins but you've seen higher SG&A costs and you've seen R&D costs as well. I want to talk about R&D costs in the past year and kind of where they are now.

Part of these expenses have come because a part of the acquisitions and the additional SG&A expense that it took to support the various initiatives, trainers, clinical personnel and so on and so forth. And also what we saw as a requirement to have a greater presence at various trade shows.

One of the things that I've instructed and directed is that we take an across-the-board 40% cut in all trade shows and administrative expenses we've associated with those trade shows effective immediately. So we are not going to go to many of these shows. We will go to the ones we think are the most important, but we're going to cut back.

I'll give you an example of one. Based on the requests I've had to go to the SIR meeting which is coming up here at the end of March and early April in New Orleans, I've taken and cut request of 25 personnel to go to that show. So we are serious about cutting our SG&A expense and particularly on the side of the discretionary expenses that we have control over.

So you will see that as these things rollout during the year, you will see that those expenses will start to come down. You'll also see a reduction in headcount. I don't think there is any sense in horsing around with this. We're going to look at every position.

And you will see, and I should disclose those at this point, that we've already done both some voluntary and involuntary types of terminations that will hit in the first quarter and they will be a charge of approximately $1 million in severance for a number of personal that are no longer with the Company. And I'm saddened by that. Like I said some of it was stuff that was voluntary and others involuntary. When I say voluntary I'm talking about Merit made the decision on the other side. Others made decisions in various manners. So that will also be in the first quarter.

I would expect that during the year that we'll continue to lean out and we'll look at a number of positions and consolidations and there will be additional severance and expenses during the year, depending on how our budgets and everything shake out and our performance in sales. So we're actively engaged in that area.

Kent and I were having a conversation last night about 2001. And you kind of go back, clear back to those times and we had a little hiccup and we turned the business around and we had these wonderful improvements in profitability. We did it in 90 days.

You know the business is much larger now and it's much slower to turn. But we know that the critical issues are gross margins, SG&A as an expense as a relationship to sales, R&D and all of these issues. We understand that.

We also understand even at $0.72 if we are able to do that, but let's just take the guidance we are giving, okay, not my number but the guidance we are using is below what we did this year. And I know you as investors don't want to be, you know, tying your hips to the wagon here in which you have constantly declining issues.

Some of these things we can control. We can't control the taxes. We can't control some aspects of this, currencies and government policies, but there things that we can control and things that we will control and do a better job.

Now some of you might be saying, well, I've heard this before and you probably have. But what I'm telling to you -- what I'm saying to you today is that we are serious about this. We will get the business to the point where we've turned the business.

We will have increases or decreases in these percentages and that our pretax and after-tax profits will be better than they are today as a percentage, even with these headwinds. This is not going to be easy to do. This is going to be difficult to do.

The reason that we're able to do it is I think we have the fortitude, I think we have the desire to do it and equally as important, we have the momentum on the revenue side, not just because of an acquisition, but because of the things that Merit is doing internally and the money that we spent on research and development and this global footprint.

I want to go to India where we more than doubled sales this year. We expect that next year, this year, 2013 we'll double them again.

I want to go to China where I think we indicated that we grew last year at almost 27% and we expect to grow there.

The Middle East, Russia, Brazil, many of these BRIC countries in these international markets are ripe. With are there. We have a presence. We have boots on the ground. We have offices in Dubai, Moscow and these are expenses that have been part of this SG&A.

That being said, with these complicated products, with these new products that have come in to the Merit family, we have all that we need. There are no excuses from us on the revenue side. It's all about execution.

And it's also about balancing the business and making sure that our operational side of the business, which by the way, is -- needs improvement as well. The operational guys oftentimes sit in the room and they kind of hide under the rocks or in the corner. But I want you to know that for them to move and for them to be more efficient and to be able to do things and make the tough decisions, it's something we're going to look at often this year to make sure that we're getting those operational improvements.

It's not just about talking in this room and talking about sales and all their jibber-jabber. It's about honest to goodness decision-making and changes that the business needs to make. So I want to assure you that we're up to the task and that we have a plan.

Now I also want to say to you that remember this first-quarter issue that we've got some severance, we've got a little bit of the pipeline that's coming on with Malvern, we've got some of the expenses associated with the move. We've got some of these issues that we'll have to deal with. But they're just a short term and we're essentially halfway through the first quarter almost two-thirds of the way through it anyway.

So Kent do you want to add anything to this?

Well, I believe that in spite of those challenges I see progress. For example in the fourth quarter I was glad to see it's been quite some many years now since we've had an improvement comparatively for SG&A expenses in the fourth quarter of 2012 compared to the fourth quarter of 2011 on a non-GAAP basis. And we just have those one-time expenses.

So we -- to have it not go up has been a first time in many years, actually, so that trend has already started in the fourth quarter. I think it's going to continue in the next year, particularly as a percentage of sales, when you look at it with the Malvern or the Thomas products now having -- carrying a lot lower SG&A cost to sell.

Well, ladies and gentlemen, we've I think laid out the situation and the results of last year. We've talked about the headwinds and opportunities of 2013. We've talked about our goals to align and have improvements in our operational performance.

We've talked about the opportunities and the very fortunate position that Merit has to have this global footprint that we have and the growth that we've seen in those markets. They weren't a one-time deal. They were issues because of the investments we made.

And I had a couple of CEOs of companies that you all know that are companies like Merit or smaller, recently talk to me and make comments like that I wish we would've made those businesses and made those investments years ago because we have 10% or 15% of our revenues coming from international markets. Now they're going to have these expenses and they're going to have the higher expenses they have in the domestic markets while they're trying to do this. We've made those investments.

I want to compliment my team here; I think that they're all -- they all look a little bit sheepish in the room. They know that task that's before them. I think we understand what we have to do.

So I hope that you'll give us that consideration, and for those of you that may have lost faith, I just can't wait to prove you wrong. And so you guys get to make your decisions and as we go through the year and we find that were progressively improving, and doing exactly what we said, I will stand a little taller in the chair a report those results. But there it is.

Those are our results. Those are the challenges. Those are the issues and those are the opportunities for the future. So again I thank you for taking a little bit more time than usual as we go over a very complicated scenario, and now we'll go ahead and open the lineup.

Just as a reminder that Kent and I will be here for a couple of hours and we'll be here, of course, all day tomorrow to provide not any exclusive information, but more clarity on the things we've talked about and the information that's in the statements for you.

So we'll go ahead now turn the time back over to our operator and we will now open it up for questions.

(Operator Instructions) Larry Solow, CJS Securities.

Hi guys, thank you. Just a couple of questions on the guidance. First of all the Thomas acquisition you guys, when you made an acquisition or when you announced it, you had sort of guesstimated it would be about $0.15 accretive on an adjusted basis. Is that still the case in 2013?

We're looking, we believe now, after looking at all the numbers and one of the things that changed is the medical device tax position for us, was an adjustment we have made a difference in since that time. But anyway we have a $0.12 non-GAAP number estimated this year.

Okay. So that's still a pretty good number. And that offsets -- that includes the higher interest expense right, so you mentioned that as one of the challenges. But yet really the interest expense being added is only because it is actually indirectly an accretive process.

Yes, actually, I'm glad you brought that up because we have made a choice, partly was required by the bank and partly for our protection, of interest rate risk increases that we did a hedge of $150 million. Now what that does this year is actually increase the interest expense about a little over $0.5 million versus where it's running at now as a variable rate.

But when you go in the out years, particularly years three, four and five of our models, it gets better because it's locked in at about 3%. So we don't have a risk of that interest rate increasing like we had originally forecast. So that's another adjustment as part of the why that's $0.12 now (multiple speakers)

Got you. Instead of $0.15 (multiple speakers) -- go ahead Fred.

Larry, can I comment on something?

Absolutely.

This is something that we have not discussed a lot, but I want to share something with you on medical device tax. And this will be again for the benefit of everybody.

As I mentioned Merit has -- somewhere just under 40% of our revenues come from international markets and then we have some technology companies that generate somewhere around $10 million worth of revenues in transducers, sensors, and wires -- (multiple speakers) and other OEMs sales. One of the issues that came up was how are you going to deal with this tax? And I think there was an assumption that everybody was just going to go ahead and pass it on and that would be the end of that.

Let me tell you what Merit's position is and what we've decided to do which is built into these numbers. And that is as we looked at the business and as we looked at our national contracts and a good portion of our US domestic -- you know, of our domestic business is covered by contracts. Many of those things are locked into price, and as you can imagine, many of the buying groups and others, individual hospitals, we were just absolutely bombarded with various requests to absorb it, to do this, to do that. Some were stronger, some were, I thought, very -- in a partnership basis saying we would hope you would consider this and that. And others were you're just flat out ain't going to do this.

So we get all this kind of stuff going on and it was all this battle of accounting this and that. As we looked at the business and we sat in counsel as a sales and marketing team and as a management team, we decided we're going to absorb this cost. There is number of reasons why.

Even on the OEM business or on the custom manufacturing business let's say for Thomas, there was a requirement under these new clarifications that Kent pointed out that came to us three weeks before the end of the year, that said if you are manufacturing a product that is substantially complete for a third-party, you are responsible for paying that tax.

So if we were making something from, let's say, company b, we have to absorb that. And then those margins and other people competing in this and that, we decided that rather than having our sales people walking into a lab and walk into their customers and spend their time defending and arguing, and doing all of this and that, that we would absorb it. And we would have our sales guy spend the time selling, particularly with this group of products and opportunities that we've talked about. So I don't know who else is doing that, and I don't know what anybody else's rationale.

But as we talked about it, our decision was, as distasteful as it was, we would take this upon ourselves. Part of it was exempt because of the international and OEM we talked about. But about half of our business is going to be subject to that tax. We chose to go ahead and take that because we felt that our time is best spent selling and represent Merit, not trying to defend or trying to argue with selling administrations and so on and so forth. So I want to put that out there.

Some may criticize us for that. I would love to have that conversation with anybody to talk about. And I think part of what gives our guys strength is the ability to have to go sell and spend their time on positive things, instead of being squirrely to try and go and place, and say oh, by the way here you go, and they're down in purchasing. We want them to be demonstrating helping, teaching and selling.

So there you go. That's kind of something new that we didn't discuss because we didn't make that decision until early in the year.

Okay and if I can just follow up on the guidance. I'm just trying to parcel out sort of what is maybe one-time-ish or sort of related to your move, your moving of facilities, consolidation of facilities and severance and all these other issues. And wouldn't some of them be called out as pulled out of your adjusted earnings?

Kent?

Yes, I mean they will be. When we -- for example the move costs, there is part of that that we will outline but it's relatively small of the total. Much of the cost is the existing equipment being moved and personnel being put in a short-term position of doing SG&A costs while they're out of production so to speak.

And those are costs that don't go away, so they're not really one-time. They're just being reallocated to SG&A temporarily and then they'll go back to being production when that's what they're doing. So that's a little difficult.

We have been having our own internal debate actually on how to present that, but those are the challenges of trying to be fair and completely transparent in what those costs are comparatively. So some of them will be and some of them not as far as those moving costs go.

When you talk about severance, yes, many of those are people we don't replace as part of the restructuring of either the Thomas acquisition and/or the restructuring we're doing to move and consolidate facilities and so forth. We will break those out and make adjustments to them as we go along.

And there are some that are management decisions for a reduction in headcount as well, so some of them are not associated with some of the efficiencies. Other issues are positions that we're simply going to eliminate.

Reprioritizing our expenses I suppose (multiple speakers)

With some of the charges -- your gross margin was down in Q4 and yet you mentioned sort of it was down year-over-year because of down production. Was that because Q3 produced ahead? Or because your sales are up, so just trying to figure out why that came down sort of against the recent trends and usually you're seasonally strong in Q4.

And I guess second part of that question is do gross margins not go up in 2013 and I guess are you sort of splitting the expense between SG&A gross margin?

That's a lot of questions there but okay.

Let me go to the first part there of that, and that is one of the things that we found that we had overproduced, the responsibility of course is all of ours. But this was -- I don't want to call it a surprise but it wasn't what was expected so we pulled back on our production so as not to make more inventory than we needed. And so we were kind of slow because we really had produced more than we should have probably in the second and third quarter.

And as we adjusted that downward, we didn't apply as much overhead. So there was about $1.5 million, I think, give or take, Kent, of negative variance --

Mostly in November.

Mostly in November that affected that fourth quarter, that affected our overall gross margin. Just as a point of interest when we set our goals for the year we hit about 85%. The only one that we didn't hit was the gross margins, which went up about 20 basis points, which was the lowest we've done in the last for five years.

And -- but all of the other things we hit in terms of our guidance last year we hit except for the gross margin thing, and that was because of this overproduction issue that we had.

And I want to clarify something you said. We actually for the year did improve gross margins on a GAAP basis by 20 points and on a non-GAAP by 30 points. So we did improve but we lost the momentum in the fourth quarter there's no doubt.

And we were actually down in the quarter comparison as you pointed out, in part due, on a GAAP basis, to the adjustment due to the acquisition of inventory sold at higher basis because of acquisition accounting, about $800,000. That's almost 1%. And that was there, too, as part of that difference when you look at it on a GAAP basis we reported.

And part of it is what Fred was explaining. We did build extra inventory, some which was for year-end shutdown, some of which was for the move coming up. But we all admit there was little more than we should have in (multiple speakers) above that.

And instead of keep doing it we pulled back production. We think from an attrition point of view from production, it was probably 30 or so employees that we did not replace, mostly through attrition. What's been interesting, about it though, Larry, and we're going to have to move on so we can give the other guys (multiple speakers) to ask questions.

But I was going to say that what was interesting about that it was about three or four weeks from this. And then as we came back after the first of the year, it always takes a little bit of while just to kind of get tuned back up, a week or so or 10 days, as you're starting to get everything moving again. And then all of a sudden it kind of hits us again.

So we're running today at about the same level of injection molding and some of those things that we were last year. So we're very busy as we speak today.

Now I will tell you that we're meeting monthly has a management team and this is something, Greg, for you and Ron and Kent, we need to meet with the February numbers more down and look at the inventories. So that this doesn't get away from us in two or three months, we are meeting monthly to go through at the end of the month and look at our inventory levels to make sure they're in line with our production and our sales.

And to support that in January we did see a drop in inventory which hasn't occurred for a few months. So the trend is correcting, I'll say.

Yes.

Thanks, I'll let someone else ask questions.

Thanks Larry.

Jayson Bedford, Raymond James.

Hi, good evening. Can you hear me?

We can Jayson, how are you?

Fine, thanks. Just a few questions. What is your gross margin expectation for 2013?

On a GAAP basis we are expecting 43% to 44% and you have to know that included in that is the medical device tax of nearly 1%. There's also another 0.2% for the year for adjusted inventories due to the Malvern acquisition accounting -- Thomas medical accounting for that, so that's another 0.2% there. And then we had additional intangible amortizations of another 1.2%. So, on a GAAP basis you're seeing another adjustment of 3% or so.

On a non-GAAP basis, we're talking 45.5% to 46.5% so we think will get around 46%, you won't see as much of a struggle there. But by the way, the tax is still in that. It's not something we can adjust. Well, I think we can separate it out so people can see it and make an adjustment for it. But it's really not -- it's an ongoing expense that we have to leave in there, I believe.

So your non-GAAP gross margin was a little north of 47% in 2012.

Correct.

You're adding let's call $35 million of Thomas medical revenue at 55% gross margin. You have a higher base business. Your gross margin is coming down on an apples-to-apples basis. Why is that?

There's the tax effect mentioned that's still in there. And there's also the additional overhead and some inefficiencies as we make these moves and reconfigure our production and absorb those overheads in the second half of the year or second two-thirds of the year. So, those new buildings both in Ireland and here in the US, the larger one, are going to have an impact this year on what those margin percentages are.

And when you shut down the facility in Salt Lake as the other one comes up, what's the cost associated with that that will fall off, I'm guessing, sometime in 2014?

Yes, it's going to be phased out. It won't have a lot of impact this year. It's -- it'll be a few hundred thousand dollars, a million possibly in total because of -- and we are going to have to wait and see on that. We're trying to be a little conservative because it will phase out before we close it down.

And then we'll have the extra people that we'll have to move in as we get our new automated inventory replenishment system operating and tested. So we don't have a hard number for you, but it will be -- it won't be a lot of improvement this year. You'll see it more in 2014 when it's all gone through the whole year.

As you know, this is a facility that we lease. It's in segments of about 5000 square feet. It's where we started our business 25 years ago. And we will essentially move one cell at a time to make sure that we don't miss anything in terms of our customer levels.

And then by the end, we think it will be about a six-month period of time is what we are guesstimating on our plan. And then we will that facility. We'll have no ongoing costs of that or any hits. It will be essentially month-to-month.

What we will see, as we bring this up and running, I estimate we will have an efficiency level of probably close to 100 individuals, give or take, through these automated systems, these transportation, handling, drivers, secretaries and so on and so forth.

Okay, last one for me and I'll let someone jump in. I think you mentioned $3 million to $4 million in new overhead costs, I'm assuming a lot of that is permanent, yet you'll obviously gain leverage as you ramp manufacturing. Is that a fair way of looking at it? Or are there other some other temporary costs associated with that $3 million to $4 million? Thanks.

These are going to be essentially permanent. They're going to be depreciation and operational costs. And even those things as we're looking at, in terms of the services, we're looking at carefully to make sure that we don't load it up and have those things. But they are going to be those permanent costs.

What you'll see as we're able to bring these products and move them in here, we'll start to absorb that up again, as I mentioned, over a six-month period.

The other thing it will do for us is that we have -- for instance there's an avoidance process here. On the R&D side some of it -- we'll be vacating some of our existing facilities here in South Jordan and making some space for some manufacturing plant -- pilot plant from our R&D.

As an example, when we start talking about the basixTOUCH, those are produced in that pilot plant and there are certain capacity limitations there right now. Once this thing starts moving, it will come into this facility and we're talking about tens of thousands of units that have to be produced that could not be produced in our existing R&D facility. So some of this stuff, had we not done this and advanced our capacity here, we would've had to go out and get another facility someplace because we simply just did not have the capacity to produce these products.

But it's a process. And hopefully if we're successful in terms of these new products, and I mean there's a number of things here, then we'll absorb it faster. I think as Kent pointed out we are trying to be conservative and not surprise anybody in terms of what these expenses are.

But the building is there and the facilities. As I pointed out, we should see over time a reduction for the same dollar volume of about 100 individuals that are absorbed or hiring -- or excuse me that are furloughed or hiring avoided. So that's a lot of folks.

Thank you.

Jim Sidoti, Sidoti & Co.

Good afternoon, can you hear me?

We can, Jim, thank you.

Let's start with international sales. What were they as a percentage of your total sales in 2012? And what do you think they'll be in 2013?

For the year and the quarter there were 37% international, and therefore 63% domestic.

So that was 2012, and as I mentioned that a good percentage of our products that -- our growth last year came from there. And I would assume at this particular point we will still see about 75%, I would say maybe 60% would be a more conservative number, of growth coming from international markets and 40% from the domestic market.

Yes, and it was a little over 16% was the growth rate in international and it was 6% domestic including OEM and stuff. We do have a wait again. When we did the acquisition, the majority of the sales from the Thomas product lines are domestic. So you're laying on this layer of domestic and the growth, as you said Fred, will start going back international but. It does throw that percentage in there for a while.

Hotspots are Russia, Gulf States, the Baltics, Eastern Europe, are kind of on fire for us, and Asia. I mean, they're very, very busy.

How does that affect your tax rate for 2013? Will it go up a little because you'll have a temporary swing back to the domestic?

We are still projecting the growth being a lot of international, a lot of new some of the new products and the Irish tax advantages keeping our tax rate. We're estimating the 29% range again, so -- 28%, 29%. So it's not going to -- we don't think it's going to hurt us much. The other good thing is we've got the R&D tax credit coming back for two years they said, actually, wow.

One other thing on that point. In the first quarter we will have a one-time benefit of about $500,000 that will come in the first quarter. And that's because of the way the bill was signed in January. But it was essentially retroactive. So we'll bring that on the -- the pronouncement is to bring it as a one-time entry. And then the ongoing R&D tax credit, Jim, for 2013 will be in our effective tax rate.

All right, and then Fred, it seems like you going to take a step backwards in operating margins for 2013 because of some of this consolidation you're doing, and hopefully improvements to your efficiency. Do you have any long term target of when you where you think the operating margins should be? It sounds like this year it's going to be, on a GAAP basis, somewhere around 7% or 8%. Where do you think it will be three or four years from now?

It's a really good question, Jim, and a tough question. As you know these things are all functions of our ability to manage all of the operating lines. And the one -- there are a number of issues in our favor.

If you take look at all of these new products that are coming out, they all have margins that are well north of our corporate average. They're all 60% type of products, and as that mix comes in -- and these are being opportunities. These are big opportunities. They're not a couple million dollars. These are tens of millions of dollars. So we'll start to see the effect of those as these things move forward.

You know I still believe we can operate in the 12% to 15% profit range, which is almost double from where we are, or better than where we are today. But in order to do that we've got to be very serious about making sure that we restrain. And one of the things we're trying to teach our sales and teach our staff, and they're all sitting here, is that the amount of increases they get every year, I think even in our budgeting process we look at it quite differently than we have in the past is that we -- they may get if we have, for instance, 8% or 9% growth, they get essentially 5% in terms of their operating budgets, so that we can get some leverage.

So it's going to take a lot of work and it's going to take two or three years. But I think with the Malvern products, I think with the global issues, the new pipeline, some of the things that the radio sheets that have 2x or 3x our standard sheets. And I'll give you another one; it's our Laureate. Our Laureate hydrophilic guide wire that's back online; we have a lot of capacity there. And as we absorbed those overheads over there, those things are going to get leveraged out quite a bit.

So I would say that 15% would be my goal. But that's a long ways from here, Jim. But it's like saying $0.72 that it's a long ways from here but you have to have those goals, and those are the things we have to set forward to. And that's what I'm committing myself to and this staff to.

All right and the last question is on cash flow; you know in the past you've used cash from operations primarily for acquisitions. At this point are you going to start to pay down some of that debt?

We are going to pay down as much as we can. There are some cash flow benefits we get out of the [338] that came out of the Malvern acquisition. We still have some NOLs that flow out of the BioSphere. We have a lot of the tax issues relative to the facilities and things like that where there's accelerated depreciation and those sorts of things.

We're out of the acquisition business, clearly. We've got business to attend to, we've got debt to pay down and so we will take every available -- and by the way we're also hedged a good portion. So that the interest rate risk we would be present, particularly in light of today, maybe some numbers and some things that we could see although who knows what the Fed is going to do, we are hedged in that way so we have -- our risk is somewhat mitigated on that side.

So the whole program here is increased sales, profitable sales, pull back on things that are discretionary and some that aren't, where we just simply have to make some cuts. You know, I don't like the word cut. In fact when Kent uses it I get mad at him. But I think I said it more times today than he has.

So we are going to cut, we're going to slice, we're going to lean out, we are going to get into shape. And I've got some folks back there saying I don't believe him and -- but that's what I'm committed to. So that's what I'm going to do.

All right, thanks Fred.

(Operator Instructions) Ross Taylor, CL King.

Maybe some cash flow estimates for 2013. Can you give any forecast of what your expectations for depreciation and amortization expense might be in 2013? And if you could break that out between depreciation separately and amortization separately that would help.

Yes, we're still going to see some completion of the facilities here as well as in Texas. And there's also a pretty heavy list of equipment as we continue to do the product pipeline that Fred has outlined.

I'm just going to -- I don't have the depreciation rate handy. I know that the amortization is about (multiple speakers) [17.5] for depreciation or combined?

(multiple speakers) depreciation.

Yes, I think amortization is another $14 million.

Okay.

Say the numbers again guys so I can hear them. Depreciation is --

[17.5].

[17.5], I need your military voice.

[17.5 and 14.7].

[14.7] on your amortization of intangibles.

Okay, all right, that helps. Also related to Thomas Medical, can you explain again why some of those sales were pulled forward into 2012? And your $0.12 accretion estimate, does that factor in the slow revenue expectations for January and February? Or is that for kind of a forward period starting in, say, the June quarter?

It does right now -- let me tell you about some of those issues. And again some of these were not our issues but they were contractual issues between Thomas and some of their OEMs. In order for them to get the pricing that they had they had to fulfill those. And many of those customers bought those things so they could buy those things at lower prices.

What Merit ended up with is a residual of what didn't get shipped out at the very end. But that means that there's a whole bunch of inventory that went out to the benefit and sales of GE during the year, and then as people work off that inventory, then we'll see this thing start to ramp.

Now let me just tell you -- go ahead, Kent.

I was going to say, that's the normal kind of cycle. They showed us their trends in the first quarter. It has always been weaker but for some reason this is not a new thing for them. But it's a little more exaggerated this year it appears like.

Ross, let me just tell you that Merit's position is that we had a price for customers and we don't like to fill that pipeline. Customers' orders from us, we fill the orders. And so we have little bit of a different approach to it than maybe the predecessor.

And then I think there's another factor here that, as you may very well see lower volume, but you will see higher margins. And that is because much -- some of this business is going to do faster than we thought in terms of going from wholesale to retail.

And that is, as our sales force is out in the field, many of these customers are saying well, you know what, I see you guys all the time. I did this -- I'd rather buy this stuff from you, get the advantage of going from the wholesale price we would sell it to the retail price. And consequently you're going to see higher margins, higher gross margins on that business.

Okay good. And (multiple speakers)

One thing we're doing, too, over the next 60 to 90 days because the process has already started, we will also Meritize all this product. It will all have Merit brand name on it, all be produced by Merit. And by the time we get to June it will be no labeling left of any of the GE products at all.

That's both contractual and we think from commerce point of view the right thing to do. So we're Meritizing all the product and moving that through the system, and I think that gives us more visibility and better branding for our products anyway.

Okay, and one or two other questions. I was just trying to think about the medical device tax and the potential for price increases to offset it. But you know even on some of the more proprietary products, you know, like the BioSphere or say the snare devices, are you not taking any price there to offset the medical device tax?

On those products you mentioned we make very high gross margins, but we also have a lot of competitors. As an example let's go specifically to the snare. If we go in with, let's say, the snare product -- which is a high gross margin and a proprietary product -- and we go in with this new snare, the ONE Snare, and say, oh, by the way we've got this new product. We would like to replace a competitor, I'm sure you're not going to mind to want to pay and take this price up a little bit by adding this tax.

We just don't think that's the right approach. We think we are receiving a fair profit for this product and as we looked at these things, I will tell you we have competitors. And we have other people who have chosen not to do this and some who've chosen to do this.

Again, our position is Ross is we want our guys selling. We want them not to be hiding, not to be ducking, not to avoid customers. We will do that here on this side and we'll make it up on the volume. We'll sell more and our guys will be out there with a clear mind.

While others are ducking and weaving and avoiding their customers, we'll be taking their business. That's how we believe it will shake out. And that's why I personally believe we have upside on our sales and earnings opportunity, because our guys are kind of loaded for bear.

They're excited to be out there and they don't have a cloud over their head. Others may have other opinions. That's the position we've taken and the way we're approaching it.

Okay, and last question. Some of these cost reductions, can you maybe describe this some, but kind of review what functions or departments that's going to be coming out of? Is it sales, manufacturing, you know other areas of operations? Just any detail there will be helpful.

Yes, well, you ought to see how everybody looks in this room right now. I mean it is -- the biggest area of discretionary spending that we have is in the sales and marketing area and it's not in the area of the actual sales people. We think that is our advantage. But it's in the areas where the discretionary marketing expenses are.

As an example we have four or five major shows and probably 30 minor shows. We have the SIR meeting. We have TCT, we have [SIRSA]. We have [GUEST], and we have PCR.

These things can cost upwards of $0.5 million each. These are expensive; they're located in foreign countries. By the time you get people, their time, the cost, boots, all this and that and so forth, and I have just said 40% cross cut across the board.

How will that affect us? We'll just have less expense in those areas. We won't have as much -- now what they may decide to do, instead of going to the big booth, they may decide to cut it down.

I'll give you an example; I think I mentioned this earlier. We have a big trade show coming up in New Orleans. It's a big interventional radiology meeting and we chose to do that. We were already committed on the booth, Ross.

But what we did was we said this a bunch of our technical people would like to go, R&D people, clinical people and so on and so forth. We've just said we're not going to send them. We'll send the sales and marketing and business people. We cut it by 25 people. That alone, that alone is probably going to save $50,000-$75,000. And all of this stuff just kind of adds up.

Marty do you want to add anything to that?

I was just going to say, we also deferred a new booth which we were going to construct, which is going to save us a little over $100,000. And we also in it did away with one of the evening symposia that we were going to do to commemorate Merit's 25th anniversary, and we had a big bash in a way planned, and that's about $75,000. So just down to SIR show alone, we're well over $200,000, probably a $0.25 million we cut out of that budget in the last two weeks.

I'll give you some others. Merit has, I think, over the years, Ross, has been very, very generous in our community and you know we have supported Boys and Girls Clubs. We've supported Junior Achievement, the arts. And we've done that because we felt the responsibility to our community.

However, we feel more of a responsibility to our shareholders and our employees, and so we will cut those expenses pretty dramatically. We've also been involved politically. I will just share this with you right now. Not half an hour ago I got a request for contribution on a political issue and I'm not going to approve it.

So those kinds of things are things that we may have done in the past, but we're not going to do in the future. Or if we do, we're going to cut them to a more -- to a substantially lower level. So those kinds of things, so I can go across the board.

I can go to the sales and marketing area, you can take a look at -- even Greg, this is kind of interesting. Greg was saying we did all this growth in the last couple of years and added one person. And I said, okay Greg, but we have to look at this. How can we go and be better automated? What can we do that helps us to not have to add anybody this year while we grow the business and get some leverage in that particular area?

I'm looking around the room, I'm thinking about -- let's see here -- OEM, and other guys -- trade shows travel. I can give you a million things that we can do to help to reduce our expenses, and that's what we have to do to get these things in line. So there's just things that -- legal, I think legal wants to hire another lawyer. Guess what, there isn't going to be hired another lawyer. (multiple speakers) (laughter) was saying there are huge cuts we can do in legal.

So we can go across the board. R&D, we have a lot of projects but we're going to have to bring that in alignment. We may have to defer some of those or cut some of the R&D. We currently have 54 R&D projects or more. And we'll just have to say we're not going to hire more people, we'll have to go to the end of the line and we'll finish these other ones.

And by the way this is a worldwide -- there is a number in Ireland, there's some in Texas, there's some here. And we'll just take a look. But we're not going to hire additional personnel to do that. So we just have to kind of change our behavior.

So a lot of these things that seem so terrible, actually I think for those who really listen to what we're saying today, it's like the best thing that could have ever happened. I don't want to say we got a wakeup call. It's more like we got banged on the head and said we just can't operate our business this way.

So there's doubters, I understand that. But let me just tell you that this is what we're going to do. And some of it's going to be painful for the people in this room. Dues and subscriptions -- how many line items do you want me go through? I can go through -- I can go through a bunch of issues here. They're all going to be looked at, and more importantly, each and every department is going to be cut.

But probably the biggest one you'll see -- the two you're going to see, the issues in SG&A, mostly marketing and sales, mostly in marketing. And then on the R&D thing to bring that in line with the percentages so that they don't spend more and we get leverage on those lines.

And I'm not letting the manufacturing guys off the hook either. Like I said, they're kind of the guys that hide under the rocks and all of us sales guys take the deal. I'm going to look at how many drivers we have, I'm going to take a look at how many people we have that are moving materials.

And the plans they sold me, they sold me this building under the proviso that they were going to be able to produce product at a lower price, have less employees, that's less healthcare, that's less this and that's less that. That's what they sold. And I'm going to tell you, I didn't get sold a bill of goods because I'm going to hold their feet to the fire. So there you go. Do you want some more?

No, I think that's a good list, so thank you.

Okay. And by the way, I hope everybody in the room is listening because you hear the questions. We're serious about this. Everybody.

I was scolding them like you guys scold me, it's kind of fun.

Kevin Casey, Casey Capital.

Hey, is there any way to quantify how much the tax is going to impact you guys? I mean I like your strategy of being one of the few companies basically eating it, versus all of your competitors are trying to ram down price increases to their customers. But I just want to try to quantify that. Seems like a pretty big earnings hit, probably not a sales hit.

It's $4 million to $5 million.

It's $4 million to $5 million. And by the way it's very, very complicated. There's a lot more rules.

Most companies, by the way, just in the last couple days -- and some of you have read this actually reduced their provisions for taxes. And some of that is because a belayed -- that whatever inventory that you had, you don't have to pay the tax on that. So we're studying that particular issue.

There have been pronouncements by some of the big four. They've kind of lowered that tax provision. And so without sounding flip, maybe some of that stuff that we produced too much of we'll be able to pay less tax on.

That being said, it may be less than this. And if we turn our inventory 3 times or something like this, it could save us maybe as much as $1 million or $1.5 million. But it's out to study and that's just an observation and something that we'll study and we'll comment in our first quarter.

Great, thanks.

(Operator Instructions). And there are no further questions in queue. I'd like to turn the call back over for closing remarks.

Well, again, it's been a long call, an hour and 18 minutes, a lot of details. And again some disappointment, I'm sure, some who probably feel in many ways encouraged. Let me just again speak to our resolve.

And by the way these are not things we're talking about today. These are the things we started. These are things that are on their way.

We'll become more efficient Company. We'll become a leaner Company; we will be able to have higher margins and our business and higher profits which will lead to higher stock prices.

The work is in front of us but we've done this before. We will lean this out and we'll move the business forward and we'll look forward to reporting our results to you in the first quarter.

We, again, I am grateful to our staff here. And I think and I hope that some of you will take a look at these topline numbers that we think are things that we feel comfortable with, and then listen to our plans and put pencil to it.

And I know that may be hearing isn't believing, but seeing certainly is. So we'll look forward to reporting to you in the near future. Well, thank you again and we'll wish you a very good evening broadcasting and signing off from Salt Lake City. Goodnight.

Ladies and gentlemen that does conclude our conference for today. I'd like to thank you for your participation and you may now disconnect.