MBIA Inc (MBI) 2025 Q2 法說會逐字稿

Welcome to the MBIA Inc. second quarter 2025 financial results conference call.

歡迎參加 MBIA Inc. 2025 年第二季財務業績電話會議。

I would now like to turn the call over to Greg Diamond, Managing Director of Investor and Media Relations of MBIA. Please go ahead, sir.

現在我想將電話轉給 MBIA 投資者和媒體關係董事總經理 Greg Diamond。先生，請繼續。

Thank you, Erica. Yes, welcome to MBIA's conference call.

謝謝你，艾麗卡。是的，歡迎參加 MBIA 的電話會議。

After the market closed yesterday, we issued and posted several items on our website, including our financial results, 10-Q, quarterly operating supplement, and statutory financial statements for both MBIA Insurance Corporation and National Public Finance Guarantee Corporation. We also posted updates to the listings of our insurance company's insurance portfolios.

在昨天市場收盤後，我們在網站上發布並公佈了幾項內容，包括我們的財務業績、10-Q、季度營運補充報告以及 MBIA 保險公司和國家公共財政擔保公司的法定財務報表。我們也發布了我們保險公司保險組合清單的更新。

Regarding today's call, please note that anything said on the call is qualified by the information provided in the company's 10-K, 10-Q, and other SEC filings as our company's definitive disclosures are incorporated in those documents. We urge investors to read our 10-K and 10-Qs as they contain our most current disclosures about the company and its financial and operating results.

關於今天的電話會議，請注意，電話會議上所說的任何內容都受到公司 10-K、10-Q 和其他 SEC 文件中提供的資訊的限制，因為我們公司的最終披露資訊都包含在這些文件中。我們敦促投資者閱讀我們的 10-K 和 10-Q，因為它們包含有關公司及其財務和經營業績的最新披露。

Those documents also contain information that may not be addressed on today's call. Definitions and reconciliations of the non-GAAP terms included in our remarks today are also included in our 10-K and 10-Qs as well as our financial results report and our quarterly operating supplement.

這些文件還包含今天的電話會議可能不會涉及的資訊。我們今天的評論中包含的非 GAAP 術語的定義和對帳也包含在我們的 10-K 和 10-Q 以及我們的財務業績報告和季度營運補充報告中。

A recorded replay of today's call will become available on the MBIA website approximately two hours after the end of the call. Now here is our safe harbor disclosure statement.

今天電話會議的錄音重播將在電話會議結束後約兩小時在 MBIA 網站上提供。以下是我們的安全港揭露聲明。

Our remarks on today's conference call may contain forward-looking statements. Important factors such as general market conditions and the competitive environment could cause our actual results to differ materially from the projected results referenced in our forward-looking statements. Risk factors are detailed in our 10-K and 10-Qs, which are available on our website at mbia.com.

我們在今天的電話會議上的評論可能包含前瞻性陳述。一般市場狀況和競爭環境等重要因素可能導致我們的實際結果與前瞻性陳述中引用的預測結果有重大差異。風險因子詳細說明在我們的 10-K 和 10-Q 中，可在我們的網站 mbia.com 上查閱。

The company cautions not to place undue reliance on any such forward-looking statements. The company also undertakes no obligation to publicly correct or update any forward-looking statement if it later becomes aware that such statement is no longer accurate.

該公司警告不要過度依賴任何此類前瞻性陳述。如果公司後來意識到此類聲明不再準確，則公司不承擔公開更正或更新任何前瞻性聲明的義務。

For our call today, Bill Fallon and Joe Schachinger will provide introductory comments, and then a question-and-answer session will follow.

在今天的電話會議上，比爾法倫 (Bill Fallon) 和喬沙欽格 (Joe Schachinger) 將提供介紹性評論，然後是問答環節。

Now, here is Bill Fallon.

現在，請比爾法倫發言。

Thanks, Greg. Good morning, everyone. Thanks for being with us today.

謝謝，格雷格。大家早安。感謝您今天與我們同在。

Our second-quarter 2025 financial results had a lower net loss than the comparable period for 2024. Compared to 2024, our second-quarter 2025 financial results benefited from lower losses in LAE and lower investment in VIE losses at MBIA Insurance Corp.

我們 2025 年第二季的財務業績淨虧損低於 2024 年同期。與 2024 年相比，我們 2025 年第二季的財務表現受益於 LAE 的損失減少以及 MBIA 保險公司的 VIE 投資損失減少。

Our priority continues to be resolving National's PREPA exposure, where the timing of that resolution remains uncertain. Currently, the Title III Court is addressing the administrative expense claims.

我們的首要任務仍然是解決國家銀行的 PREPA 風險，但解決的時間仍不確定。目前，第三章法院正在處理行政費用索賠。

Given the uncertainty associated with the possible outcomes for National's PREPA bankruptcy claim, which is in excess of $800 million, we continue to believe that the process to sell the company to maximize shareholder value will likely require substantially reducing the uncertainty regarding PREPA.

鑑於 National 的 PREPA 破產索賠可能產生的結果存在不確定性（金額超過 8 億美元），我們仍然認為，出售該公司以實現股東價值最大化的過程可能需要大幅減少 PREPA 的不確定性。

Regarding the balance of National's insured portfolio, those credits have continued to perform generally consistent with our expectations. The gross par amount outstanding for National's insured portfolio has declined by approximately $1.1 billion from year-end 2024 to about $24 billion at June 30, 2025.

就國家保險組合的餘額而言，這些信貸的表現總體上繼續符合我們的預期。國家保險投資組合的未償還總票面金額從 2024 年底下降了約 11 億美元，至 2025 年 6 月 30 日約為 240 億美元。

National's leverage ratio of gross par to statutory capital was 26:1 at the end of the second quarter. As of June 30, 2025, National had total claims paying resources of $1.5 billion and statutory capital and surplus in excess of $900 million.

截至第二季末，國民銀行的總票面價值與法定資本的槓桿率為 26:1。截至 2025 年 6 月 30 日，National 的索賠支付資源總額為 15 億美元，法定資本和盈餘超過 9 億美元。

Now Joe will provide additional comments about our financial results.

現在喬將對我們的財務表現提供進一步的評論。

Thank you, Bill, and good morning, all. I will begin with a review of our second-quarter 2025 GAAP and non-GAAP results and then provide an overview of our statutory results.

謝謝你，比爾，大家早安。我將首先回顧我們 2025 年第二季的 GAAP 和非 GAAP 結果，然後概述我們的法定結果。

The company reported a consolidated GAAP net loss of $56 million or a negative $1.12 per share for the second quarter of 2025 compared with a consolidated GAAP net loss of $254 million or a negative $5.34 per share for the second quarter of 2024. The lower GAAP net loss this quarter was mostly driven by lower losses in LAE at National, primarily on its PREPA exposure.

該公司報告稱，2025 年第二季合併 GAAP 淨虧損為 5,600 萬美元，即每股虧損 1.12 美元，而 2024 年第二季合併 GAAP 淨虧損為 2.54 億美元，即每股虧損 5.34 美元。本季 GAAP 淨虧損減少主要是由於 National 的 LAE 虧損減少，主要是由於其 PREPA 風險敞口。

National's loss in LAE for the second quarter of 2025 was $6 million compared with $141 million for the second quarter of 2024. The larger losses in LAE for the second quarter of 2024 related to National's exit from the then proposed PREPA plan of adjustment, prompting us to revise our loss scenarios to reflect a range of negotiated and litigated outcomes.

2025 年第二季度，國家半導體在洛杉磯國際機場的虧損為 600 萬美元，而 2024 年第二季的虧損為 1.41 億美元。2024 年第二季 LAE 的較大虧損與 National 退出當時提議的 PREPA 調整計畫有關，這促使我們修改損失情景，以反映一系列談判和訴訟結果。

Also contributing to lower GAAP net losses this quarter, but to a lesser extent, were lower net losses on financial instruments relating to the revaluation of MBIA Insurance Corp.'s equity interest in a Zohar-related portfolio company received in connection with claims paid on the Zohar CDOs and lower losses at MBIA Insurance Corp. related to insured variable interest entities or VIEs.

本季 GAAP 淨虧損減少的另一個原因是，MBIA 保險公司因 Zohar CDO 索賠而獲得的 Zohar 相關投資組合公司股權重估相關的金融工具淨虧損減少，以及 MBIA 保險公司與受保可變利益實體或 VIE 相關的損失減少，但程度較小。

Higher VIE losses in the second quarter of 2024 primarily related to the deconsolidation of a VIE as part of our strategy to derisk MBIA Insurance Corp.'s insured portfolio with no comparable activity in the second quarter of 2025.

2024 年第二季 VIE 損失增加主要與 VIE 的拆分有關，這是我們降低 MBIA Insurance Corp. 保險投資組合風險策略的一部分，而 2025 年第二季沒有類似的活動。

The company's adjusted net loss, a non-GAAP measure, was $8 million or a negative $0.17 per share for the second quarter of 2025 compared with an adjusted net loss of $138 million or a negative $2.90 per share for the second quarter of 2024. The favorable change was primarily due to the lower losses in LAE at National.

該公司 2025 年第二季的調整後淨虧損（非 GAAP 指標）為 800 萬美元或每股負 0.17 美元，而 2024 年第二季的調整後淨虧損為 1.38 億美元或每股負 2.90 美元。這一有利變化主要歸因於 National 的 LAE 損失減少。

MBIA Inc.'s book value per share decreased $2.15 to a negative $43.14 per share as of June 30, 2025, from a negative $40.99 per share as of December 31, 2024. This decrease was primarily due to our $118 million consolidated net loss for the first six months of 2025, partially offset by a decrease in unrealized losses on investments recorded in accumulated other comprehensive income.

截至 2025 年 6 月 30 日，MBIA Inc. 每股帳面價值下降 2.15 美元至每股負 43.14 美元，截至 2024 年 12 月 31 日，每股帳面價值為負 40.99 美元。這一下降主要是由於我們 2025 年上半年的合併淨虧損為 1.18 億美元，但累計其他綜合收益中記錄的投資未實現損失減少部分抵消了這一下降。

Included in MBIA Inc.'s book value as of June 30, 2025, is MBIA Insurance Corp.'s negative book value of $51.49 per share, which decreased from a negative $49.48 per share as of December 31, 2024. I will now spend a few minutes on our Corporate segment balance sheet.

MBIA Inc. 截至 2025 年 6 月 30 日的帳面價值中包括 MBIA Insurance Corp. 每股負 51.49 美元的帳面價值，低於 2024 年 12 月 31 日的每股負 49.48 美元。現在我將花幾分鐘時間看一下我們的公司部門資產負債表。

The Corporate segment, which primarily comprises the activities of the holding company, MBIA Inc., had total assets of approximately $677 million as of June 30, 2025. Within this total are the following material assets.

企業部門主要包括控股公司 MBIA Inc. 的業務，截至 2025 年 6 月 30 日，其總資產約為 6.77 億美元。總計中包括以下物質資產。

Unencumbered cash and liquid assets held by MBIA Inc. totaled $355 million, which was down from $380 million as of December 31, 2024, primarily due to interest payments on the Corporate segment's debt. In addition to the unencumbered cash and liquid assets, the Corporate segment's assets included approximately $214 million of assets at market value pledged to guaranteed investment agreement contract holders, which fully collateralized those contracts.

MBIA Inc. 持有的未支配現金和流動資產總額為 3.55 億美元，低於 2024 年 12 月 31 日的 3.8 億美元，主要原因是公司部門債務的利息支付。除了無抵押現金和流動資產外，企業部門的資產還包括按市場價值抵押給擔保投資協議合約持有人的約 2.14 億美元資產，這些合約由持有人全額擔保。

Now I'll turn to the insurance company statutory results. National reported statutory net income of $6 million for the second quarter of 2025 compared with a statutory net loss of $131 million for the second quarter of 2024. The positive variance primarily reflects lower losses in LAE related to National's PREPA exposure.

現在我來談談保險公司的法定結果。National 報告稱，2025 年第二季的法定淨收入為 600 萬美元，而 2024 年第二季的法定淨虧損為 1.31 億美元。正向差異主要反映了與 National 的 PREPA 風險暴露相關的 LAE 損失較低。

National statutory capital as of June 30, 2025, was $914 million, up $2 million compared with December 31, 2024. The increase in statutory capital was driven by year-to-date net income of $11 million, which was mostly offset by an increase in unrealized losses on investments. Claims paying resources were $1.5 billion and continue to be consistent with December 31, 2024.

截至 2025 年 6 月 30 日的國家法定資本為 9.14 億美元，與 2024 年 12 月 31 日相比增加 200 萬美元。法定資本的增加是由年初至今 1,100 萬美元的淨收入推動的，但這大部分被投資未實現損失的增加所抵消。索賠支付資源為 15 億美元，與 2024 年 12 月 31 日保持一致。

Now I'll turn to MBIA Insurance Corp. MBIA Insurance Corp. reported statutory net income of $4 million for the second quarter of 2025 compared with a statutory net loss of $35 million for the second quarter of 2024. The favorable variance was primarily due to lower losses in LAE.

現在我來談談 MBIA 保險公司。 MBIA 保險公司報告稱，2025 年第二季的法定淨收入為 400 萬美元，而 2024 年第二季的法定淨虧損為 3,500 萬美元。有利的變化主要是由於 LAE 的損失較低。

A small loss in LAE benefit in the current quarter was primarily driven by favorable adjustments to recoveries of paid claims associated with the Zohar CDOs, while $34 million of losses in LAE in the second quarter of 2024 was primarily driven by unfavorable adjustments to our Zohar-related recoveries. As of June 30, 2025, the statutory capital of MBIA Insurance Corp. was $92 million, which was $4 million higher than year-end 2024.

本季 LAE 福利的小幅損失主要是由於與 Zohar CDO 相關的已付索賠回收的有利調整所致，而 2024 年第二季度 LAE 的 3400 萬美元損失主要是由於與 Zohar 相關的回收的不利調整所致。截至 2025 年 6 月 30 日，MBIA 保險公司的法定資本為 9,200 萬美元，比 2024 年底高出 400 萬美元。

Claims paying resources totaled $346 million at June 30, 2025, compared with $356 million at December 31, 2024. MBIA Insurance Corp.'s insured gross par outstanding was $2.2 billion as of June 30, 2025, down from $2.3 billion at year-end 2024.

截至 2025 年 6 月 30 日，索賠支付資源總額為 3.46 億美元，而 2024 年 12 月 31 日為 3.56 億美元。截至 2025 年 6 月 30 日，MBIA 保險公司的未償保險總票面價值為 22 億美元，低於 2024 年底的 23 億美元。

And now, we will turn the call over to the operator to begin the question-and-answer session.

現在，我們將把電話轉給接線員，開始問答環節。

(Operator Instructions) Tom McJoynt, KBW.

（操作員指示）Tom McJoynt，KBW。

The first one, I see in the 10-Q a disclosure about National transferring certain PREPA bankruptcy claims to a custodian. So a few questions around that.

第一個，我在 10-Q 中看到一份關於 National 將某些 PREPA 破產債權轉移給託管人的揭露。圍繞這一點有幾個問題。

First, can we interpret this action as a signal that you guys are marketing -- selling those claims to potential buyers? And secondly, is there a potential liquid buyer pool for those claims?

首先，我們能否將此舉解讀為你們正在行銷——向潛在買家推銷這些產品的訊號？其次，這些債權是否存在潛在的流動買家池？

And then secondly, it looks like you only transferred certain claims of the PREPA side. I guess, what made you decide between which ones to transfer and which ones not to transfer?

其次，看起來您只轉移了 PREPA 方面的某些索賠。我想，是什麼讓您決定要轉移哪些，不轉移哪些呢？

Yes. Tommy, what took place is $374 million of claims were transferred to custodian. And in return, they transferred to us what I refer to as custodial receipts.

是的。湯米，發生的事情是 3.74 億美元的索賠被轉移到託管人。作為回報，他們把所謂的保管收據轉給了我們。

We are -- we feel very good about the litigation with regard to PREPA. As you know, it's been ongoing and is the focus and a priority for us.

我們—我們對與 PREPA 有關的訴訟感到非常滿意。如您所知，這項工作一直在進行，並且是我們的重點和優先事項。

What happens as we have different bonds where we pay the full debt service, those then become claims versus unpaid bonds. So it's not a question that we pick and choose, right?

當我們持有不同的債券並支付全部債務服務時，這些債券會變成債權，而不是未付債券，這時會發生什麼情況？所以這不是我們挑選的問題，對嗎？

Those have been completely paid off bonds. And essentially, by doing this, they are more marketable and that they become effectively securities versus claims. So that's what you saw reported. That's in our 10-Q.

那些是已經全部還清的債券。從本質上講，透過這樣做，它們變得更具市場價值，並有效地成為有價證券而非債權。這就是你所看到的報道。這是我們的 10-Q。

With regard to how many buyers there are for this, we believe there are some. As you know, in the past, we sold actually about a third of our PREPA claims going back a few years ago. So there are other interested parties.

至於有多少買家，我們相信是有一些的。如您所知，幾年前我們實際上已經售出了大約三分之一的 PREPA 債權。因此還有其他利害關係人。

Whether or not we sell them remains to be seen. But we thought that by doing this, it does make them more marketable. There are certain investment funds that are more likely to be able to hold them because they are now securities, they have their own CUSIP number, and things like that.

我們是否出售它們還有待觀察。但我們認為這樣做確實會使它們更具市場價值。某些投資基金更有可能持有它們，因為它們現在是證券，它們有自己的 CUSIP 號碼等等。

Okay, got it. Thanks for clarifying that. And then secondly, looking to some of the recent headlines, the Oversight Board in Puerto Rico saw five of its seven members get terminated by the president.

好的，明白了。感謝您澄清這一點。其次，看看最近的一些頭條新聞，波多黎各監督委員會的七名成員中有五名被總統解僱。

As we think about just like logistically, how this impacts the restructuring, and the negotiations between bondholders and the Oversight Board and other stakeholders, how do you guys view that headline? Is it a positive? Does it delay the process? Just what are your viewpoints around that?

當我們從邏輯上考慮這會對重組以及債券持有人與監督委員會和其他利害關係人之間的談判產生什麼影響時，你們如何看待這個標題？這是積極的嗎？這會延遲進程嗎？您對此有何看法？

There are lots of questions that all the interested parties have given the news that you just referenced that is the dismissal of five of the Board members. Hard to tell exactly what happens. I think in the coming days, we'll know a whole lot more, starting with how long does it take to replace those Board members, who are the new Board members, what approach do they take.

所有相關方都對您剛才提到的解僱五名董事會成員的消息提出了很多疑問。很難說清楚到底發生了什麼事。我認為在接下來的日子裡，我們將會了解更多信息，首先是更換董事會成員需要多長時間，新董事會成員是誰，他們採取什麼方法。

Given the challenges that we've had with PREPA and the desire, we believe, of all the creditors to reach a consensual deal, we would hope that this will turn out to be a positive. Again, until those questions that I just mentioned are answered and the approach that the newly reconstituted Board takes, it would really be just speculation on our part in terms of what happens.

考慮到我們在 PREPA 方面遇到的挑戰，以及我們相信所有債權人都希望達成一致協議，我們希望這將是一個積極的結果。再說一次，在我剛才提到的那些問題得到解答以及新重組的董事會採取的方法之前，對於將會發生什麼，我們只能進行猜測。

But as you know, when you go back through the history of PROMESA, which is now -- we're nine years into it. There were four large credits that we had that were put into Title III. Three of those have been resolved in a consensual way.

但如你所知，當你回顧 PROMESA 的歷史時，我們已經走過九年了。我們有四個大額學分被納入第三章。其中三項問題已透過協商的方式解決。

It looked as though there was low probability right now that we would reach a consensual deal in the near term. But perhaps this news will lead to an increased probability for a settlement even along a faster time line, but we just don't know at this point.

目前看來，我們近期達成一致協議的可能性很小。但也許這個消息會增加在更短的時間內達成和解的可能性，但目前我們還不知道。

Okay, got it. And then just last one. Looking also at the disclosures in the Q, there's a note that the Oversight Board informed the court that it was intending to modify National's settlement in the forthcoming amended plan. Could you give me some background or some details on what that's referring to?

好的，明白了。然後是最後一個。再看一下 Q 中的披露內容，其中有一條說明稱，監督委員會已通知法院，其打算在即將出台的修訂計劃中修改國家銀行的和解方案。您能否提供我一些背景資訊或有關這方面的詳細資訊？

Tommy, which disclosure are you referring to?

湯米，你指的是哪一項披露？

In the Q, the business developments around PREPA, it reads: following the appeal decision, the Oversight Board informed the court, National, and other parties that intended to modify national settlement in a forthcoming amended plan.

在 Q 中，關於 PREPA 的業務發展，內容如下：根據上訴決定，監督委員會通知法院、國家和其他各方，他們打算在即將出台的修訂計劃中修改國家解決方案。

Yeah. I think you're referring to the one that's -- it's in the current Q, but it's dated -- it took place a while back. So I don't think there's any new information that we're sharing on that one. That's with regard to the agreement that we had, which they wanted to modify, which has then resulted in us -- we think they've breached the agreement. We -- right, the agreement effectively came terminated.

是的。我認為您指的是那個 - 它在當前的 Q 中，但它已經過時了 - 它發生在一段時間之前。所以我認為我們不會分享任何有關此的新資訊。這是關於我們達成的協議，他們想要修改協議，這導致我們認為他們違反了協議。我們——對，該協議實際上已經終止。

Carlos Bardo, Private Investor.

卡洛斯‧巴爾多 (Carlos Bardo)，私人投資者。

This is Carlos calling from London. Thank you very much again for your time back in February, and thank you also for the move to sell the claims or to pass the claims to the custodian. I think that -- I agree that it is -- it increases the marketability. So I mean, thank you for that. I think it is in line with what I suggested in February, and I really appreciate the move.

我是卡洛斯，從倫敦打來的。再次非常感謝您在二月抽出時間，也感謝您採取出售債權或將債權轉交給託管人的舉措。我認為——我同意這一點——它提高了市場競爭力。所以我的意思是，謝謝你。我認為這與我二月份的建議一致，我非常讚賞這項措施。

In terms of the repurchase capacity, we still have the $71 million repurchase capacity. And my suggestion, and this is only a suggestion, is that if the share price would at any point, hopefully not, fall again to lower levels to the ones that we have now, that you would consider, and I say only consider, using this repurchase capacity. As this -- at the moment, we could buy -- we could repurchase approximately 20% of the shares outstanding. If we were back to lower levels, please just consider the possibility of using it.

在回購能力方面，我們仍然擁有7,100萬美元的回購能力。我的建議（這只是一個建議）是，如果股價在任何時候（希望不會）再次跌至目前的水平，那麼你會考慮（我說只考慮）使用這種回購能力。目前，我們可以購買——我們可以回購大約 20% 的流通股。如果我們回到較低的水平，請考慮使用它的可能性。

We agree with you. We look at potential repurchases of stock constantly. And you are correct, we have authorization remaining. And it is something that we are always looking at and trading that off with liquidity issues at the holding company and capacity at National to repurchase based on statutory requirements. So we agree with you. It's something that we will continue to look at.

我們同意你的看法。我們不斷關注股票回購的可能性。您說得對，我們還有剩餘的授權。我們一直在關注這個問題，並在控股公司的流動性問題和國家根據法定要求回購的能力之間進行權衡。所以我們同意你的看法。我們將繼續關注此事。

Perfect. If at any point, I feel that we have reached hopefully not a level that is lower enough to justify the repurchase, I will, of course, drop you a line. But at the moment, I don't think that it is necessary. But just the idea of the repurchases being a possibility helps us shareholders a lot.

完美的。如果在任何時候，我覺得我們已經達到的水平還沒有低到足以證明回購是合理的，我當然會給你寫信。但目前我認為沒有必要。但光是回購的可能性這個想法就對我們股東有很大幫助。

Then the next question would be on the cooperation agreement with Assured and Golden Tree. Is it still the case that it will expire in December at the end of the year, but that Golden Tree and Assured Guaranty can extend it until the end of March?

那麼下一個問題是關於與 Assured 和 Golden Tree 的合作協議。是不是還是年底12月到期，但Golden Tree和Assured Guaranty可以延長到3月底？

Yeah. Go ahead, Joe. Joe is going to take that one.

是的。來吧，喬。喬要接這個。

Carlos, I'm sorry, could you repeat the question?

卡洛斯，對不起，你能重複這個問題嗎？

Yes. The cooperation agreement with -- or the ad hoc group with Assured Guaranty and Golden Tree. At the moment, our agreement will expire at the end of the year. But the Golden Tree and Assured can extend it until the end of March. Is that still the case? Is my understanding correct?

是的。與 Assured Guaranty 和 Golden Tree 簽訂的合作協議或特別小組。目前，我們的協議將於今年底到期。但金樹和安信保險可以延長至三月底。現在還是這樣嗎？我的理解正確嗎？

Yeah. Agreement, Carlos --

是的。同意，卡洛斯--

Yeah, we look at that -- the group looks at that -- given the news that the previous caller asked about with the reconstitution of the Board, we will be gathering new information, we hope, very shortly. We hope that leads to real discussions and potentially a deal.

是的，我們正在研究這個問題——小組正在研究這個問題——考慮到先前來電者詢問的有關董事會重組的消息，我們希望很快就能收集到新的資訊。我們希望這能引發真正的討論並可能達成協議。

But we'll continue to review that situation and how it relates to the co-op agreement. But we feel that the co-op agreement has been beneficial up until this point, but we'll continue to look at it.

但我們將繼續審查該情況以及它與合作協議的關係。但我們認為到目前為止合作協議都是有益的，但我們會繼續關注它。

Perfect. My suggestion, and again, it is only a suggestion, is that you don't extend the co-op until we have the November call. So that would be -- and again, it's a suggestion, a polite suggestion. So just because you guys are in charge, but that would be my suggestion.

完美的。我的建議是，再說一遍，這只是一個建議，在我們接到 11 月的電話之前，不要延長合作期限。所以這將是——再說一次，這是一個建議，一個禮貌的建議。所以只是因為你們負責，但這是我的建議。

And then the final question is regarding the PREPA exposure. At the moment, the outstanding exposure would be -- the total exposure would be in the -- as per the results, will be $657 million. But I assume that we have made a significant payment back in -- on July 1. Is it possible to give an updated figure?

最後一個問題是關於 PREPA 曝光。目前，未償風險敞口將是——根據結果，總風險敞口將是——6.57 億美元。但我認為我們已經在 7 月 1 日支付了一大筆款項。能否給出更新後的數字？

Yeah. Carlos, we do report that in our operating supplement. As of June 30, the outstanding part was $504 million. And we [didn't] make a $91 million and $97 million payment on July 1.

是的。卡洛斯，我們確實在我們的營運補充報告中報告了這一點。截至6月30日，未償還部分為5.04億美元。而我們在 7 月 1 日沒有支付 9,100 萬美元和 9,700 萬美元。

John Staley, Staley Capital Advisers.

約翰‧斯塔利 (John Staley)，斯塔利資本顧問公司。

Bill, when the Trump administration removed five of the seven members of the Oversight Committee, I think -- of course, I think they're all political appointees. But did it include the Chairman?

比爾，當川普政府罷免監督委員會七名成員中的五名時，我認為——當然，我認為他們都是政治任命者。但其中有主席嗎？

Yes. The current Chair of the Oversight Board was Arthur Gonzalez. He was one of the five people who was dismissed by the President.

是的。監督委員會現任主席為亞瑟·岡薩雷斯 (Arthur Gonzalez)。他是被總統解僱的五人之一。

And he has -- am I correct that he has historically -- as he is a professor that has been, shall I say, challenging to deal with, with his leadership.

而且他——我是否正確認為，從歷史上看，他是一位教授，可以說，他的領導能力很難應付。

No, that -- you're referring to David Skeel. He stepped down a while back. Arthur Gonzalez is a retired bankruptcy judge.

不，那個——你指的是大衛·斯基爾 (David Skeel)。他不久前辭職了。亞瑟·岡薩雷斯 (Arthur Gonzalez) 是一位退休的破產法官。

Okay. All right. So who were the two that were left and why were they left?

好的。好的。那麼剩下的兩個人是誰呢？為什麼留下他們？

John, there were no reasons given for that. We just know that the five were dismissed. The two who are left are Andrew Biggs and John Nixon.

約翰，沒有給任何理由。我們只知道這五人被解雇了。剩下的兩個人是安德魯·比格斯和約翰·尼克森。

And do you find that a positive or a negative that those are the two that stayed?

您覺得留下這兩人是好事還是壞事？

Listen, it's hard for us to assess. We don't deal with each of the seven Board members. We deal typically through their advisers. There's some contact occasionally with Board members. But as you can imagine, given all the parties involved, that most of this is done through lawyers, et cetera, and advisers.

聽著，我們很難評估。我們不會與七位董事會成員中的每一位打交道。我們通常透過他們的顧問進行交易。偶爾會與董事會成員進行一些接觸。但你可以想像，考慮到所涉及的所有各方，大部分工作都是透過律師、顧問等完成的。

So hard to know at the individual Board member level exactly how they view different aspects of the restructuring.

因此，很難知道董事會成員個人究竟如何看待重組的不同面向。

But in order to get this restructuring completed, I gather that while they removed five of the seven, the Oversight Board's authority remains in place so that they'll have to put on an additional five or four or, whatever the bylaws require, for this oversight Board to continue to function and continue to exercise its so-called oversight power to approve any deal that's done.

但為了完成重組，我了解到，雖然他們撤掉了七人中的五人，但監督委員會的權力仍然存在，因此他們必須再增加五人或四人，或者根據章程的要求，讓這個監督委員會繼續運作，繼續行使其所謂的監督權力來批准任何已完成的交易。

You're correct, John. There are certain things that can continue, but there will be certain things -- for example, actually approving and confirming a plan, the Board would need to have a quorum. Two people does not -- or two directors does not constitute a quorum under PROMESA.

你說得對，約翰。有些事情可以繼續，但有些事情會繼續下去——例如，實際上批准和確認一項計劃，董事會需要達到法定人數。根據 PROMESA，兩個人或兩名董事不構成法定人數。

They need to have four. They need a certain number of positive votes. So they will need to add Board members, which our understanding is that that is the intention, just a question of when that happens and who the people are.

他們需要四個。他們需要一定數量的讚。因此，他們需要增加董事會成員，我們的理解是，這就是他們的意圖，只是何時增加以及由誰來增加的問題。

Okay. All right. And are there any valuation guidelines on -- for instance, when you transfer the fully paid bonds, has there been any transactions in those bonds that suggest what market levels are out there?

好的。好的。是否有任何估價指南 - 例如，當您轉讓全額支付的債券時，這些債券是否有任何交易可以表明當時的市場水平？

It's not a very deep or liquid market. There are some trades that have been done. Again, it's very small. So nothing along the size -- along the lines of the size that we transferred into the custodian because I mentioned that $374 million. The small trades that have been done have been done at about $0.55 on the dollar.

這不是一個深度或流動性很強的市場。有一些交易已經完成。再說一遍，它非常小。因此，與我們轉入託管人的金額大小無關，因為我提到了 3.74 億美元。已完成的小額交易價格約為 0.55 美元。

For the uninsured?

對於沒有保險的人？

Yeah, those are for uninsured bonds, as Greg reminds me. But that's roughly -- but again, those are small transactions.

是的，正如格雷格提醒我的那樣，這些是無保險債券。但這只是大致情況——但再說一次，這些都是小額交易。

(Operator Instructions) Patrick Stadelhofer, Kahn Brothers.

（操作員說明）Patrick Stadelhofer，卡恩兄弟。

Now that you've turned your claims into easy-to-sell securities, would monetizing half your exposure, like you did four or five years ago, move along a sale process by lowering that uncertainty you talked about and narrow that bid-ask spread? Or would that at least help with a special dividend in the alternative?

現在您已經將您的債權轉化為易於出售的證券，那麼像四五年前那樣，將您的一半風險敞口貨幣化，是否會通過降低您談到的不確定性來推動銷售流程並縮小買賣價差？或者至少這能幫助提供特別股息嗎？

It clearly will reduce the uncertainty with regard to PREPA, which, as you know, is one of the things that we've cited needs to happen for us to pursue a sale of the company. So if we were to sell $374 million of our total exposure, which is a little bit in excess of $800 million, that clearly would be a big step in that direction.

這顯然會減少與 PREPA 有關的不確定性，正如您所知，這是我們提到的為了出售該公司所需發生的事情之一。因此，如果我們出售 3.74 億美元的總風險敞口（略高於 8 億美元），這顯然是朝著這個方向邁出的一大步。

With regard to the second, a little bit premature to start speculating what happens with regard to special dividends, just given the remaining Puerto Rico exposure. But again, all those things are possibilities and the probability goes up as we take those types of actions that you're suggesting.

關於第二點，考慮到波多黎各的剩餘風險敞口，現在開始猜測特別股息會發生什麼還為時過早。但同樣，所有這些都是可能的，而且當我們採取您所建議的行動時，可能性就會增加。

And just the question is, why did you take a step to transfer to the custodian now as opposed to some of these other tranches that already matured a few years ago? So just, I guess, a question around the timing.

問題是，為什麼你們現在要轉移給託管人，而不是像幾年前那樣轉移給其他一些已經到期的債券？所以，我猜這只是一個關於時間的問題。

Yeah. I think nothing special about the timing. We've been looking at this. It takes a while to put the program in place. We thought we've gotten to a quantum of bond claims where it was meaningful and that by increasing the marketability of those, it might help facilitate sales if we found attractive prices to transact at.

是的。我認為時間上沒有什麼特別的。我們一直在關注此事。實施該計劃需要一段時間。我們認為，我們已經獲得了一定數量的有意義的債券債權，並且透過提高這些債券的適銷性，如果我們找到有吸引力的交易價格，它可能有助於促進銷售。

But as we've said, we've also sold them without putting them into a custodian and creating custodial receipts where we have sold claims. But again, we thought it was a good thing to do. Nothing in particular about this time. There was no specific catalyst to doing it right now.

但正如我們所說，我們也出售過它們，但沒有將它們交給託管人，也沒有創建我們出售債權的託管收據。但我們再次認為這是一件好事。這次沒什麼特別的事。目前還沒有具體的催化劑來做到這一點。

Paul Saunders, Hutch Capital.

保羅桑德斯（Paul Saunders），Hutch Capital。

On the transferred claims that we're talking about to the custodian, you mentioned $374 million. Is that all of the claims? Or my understanding was you had about $300 million previously, and now you just paid $92 million. So rough numbers, $390 million, $400 million. Did you leave any behind? And if so, was there a reason for that?

關於我們正在討論的轉移給託管人的債權，您提到了 3.74 億美元。這就是全部說法嗎？或者我的理解是，你之前大約有 3 億美元，現在你只付了 9,200 萬美元。粗略的數字是 3.9 億美元、4 億美元。你留下了什麼嗎？如果是這樣，有什麼原因嗎？

No, we didn't leave any behind. As I mentioned, you can't transfer until you've paid off the full bond, right? So when you go back, we talk about our PREPA exposure, but it's made up of lots of different bonds that we insured.

沒有，我們沒有留下任何東西。正如我所提到的，您必須先付清全部債券才能轉賬，對嗎？所以當你回過頭來看時，我們會談論我們的 PREPA 風險敞口，但它是由我們承保的許多不同債券組成的。

So even though you saw $91 million getting paid, it's possible that none of those were the last payment on a particular bond. So it's just a question of when you've made the last debt service payment and the bonds completely paid off that we can then transfer it and create a new CUSIP for it.

因此，即使您看到支付了 9,100 萬美元，但這些都可能不是特定債券的最後一筆付款。所以問題只是當你支付了最後一筆債務並且債券完全還清後，我們就可以轉移它並為其創建一個新的 CUSIP。

Perfect. That makes perfect sense. And then last one, this is also pretty tiny. But it did look like National's salvage went down a little bit, loss reserves went up slightly. I'm assuming that's changing the recovery assumptions on PREPA.

完美的。這很有道理。最後一個，這個也相當小。但看起來國家石油公司的殘值確實略有下降，損失準備金略為上升。我認為這會改變 PREPA 的恢復假設。

And if so, I mean, I guess, is that right? And if so, is there a reason that you thought PREPA recoveries might be a little bit lower than as of last quarter?

如果是這樣，我的意思是，我想，這是對的嗎？如果是這樣，您是否認為 PREPA 回收率可能比上一季略低？原因是什麼？

Yeah. So the change you're seeing is a result of modifications to assumptions within our PREPA scenarios. Each quarter, we look at those assumptions and we may make modifications. This quarter, we did make a small modification which generated a small loss, which you're seeing reflected in the results.

是的。因此，您所看到的變化是我們對 PREPA 場景中的假設進行修改的結果。每個季度，我們都會審視這些假設並做出修改。本季度，我們確實做了一些小修改，產生了一些小損失，您在結果中已經看到了這一點。

Okay. Can you -- obviously, it sounds like you don't really want to provide any more color on that. Was there something that happened that made you change that?

好的。您能否——顯然，聽起來您似乎不想對此提供更多細節。發生了什麼事讓你改變了這個想法嗎？

And while we're on that, is that something like where -- the market obviously views the Board decision by Trump as positive. Is that something you factor into your recovery assumptions that now maybe market prices of PREPA claims are moving higher or something? Would you factor that into the recovery assumptions for the quarterly balance sheet?

當我們談論這個話題時，市場顯然認為川普的董事會決定是正面的。您在進行復甦假設時是否考慮到了這一點，即現在 PREPA 索賠的市場價格可能正在走高？您會將其納入季度資產負債表的復甦假設中嗎？

Yeah. So Paul, with regard to your earlier comment, in terms of the current reserve that was reflected in the second-quarter results, just following up on Joe's comments, it really had to do more with timing as opposed to the dollar or percentage recovery.

是的。因此，保羅，關於您先前的評論，就第二季業績中反映的當前儲備而言，根據喬的評論，它實際上與時間有關，而不是與美元或百分比的複蘇有關。

And as you know, right, as we follow the litigation, the process -- every quarter, we look at it and we try to estimate how much longer it's going to take. And no one has a precise answer.

正如你所知，隨著我們追蹤訴訟和流程——每個季度，我們都會對其進行審查，並嘗試估計還需要多長時間。沒有人能給出確切的答案。

But I think the decline in salvage that you saw had to do with it taking longer than perhaps we expected three months earlier, nothing more than that. There was no new information with regard to what the Oversight Board was going to offer, what the bondholders might accept, where there might be an agreement reached.

但我認為，您所看到的打撈量下降可能與我們三個月前預期的時間比預期的要長有關，僅此而已。關於監督委員會將提供什麼、債券持有人可能接受什麼、可能在何處達成協議，目前還沒有新的資訊。

With regard to your follow-up question regarding the events this week and what will be a newly constituted Board in the near future, we will take that into account when we do reserves for third quarter based on what we learned.

關於您關於本週事件的後續問題以及不久的將來新成立的董事會的情況，我們將根據所了解的情況在製定第三季度儲備時考慮到這一點。

So when the Board is in place, the Board and its advisers have a new approach with regard to perhaps increasing the likelihood that a consensual deal is reached versus litigating this and people put forth estimates how long it could take to litigate. So in that sense, absolutely, it will get factored into the reserves if we think that has changed any assumptions in the scenarios that we used.

因此，當董事會到位時，董事會及其顧問會採取一種新方法，以增加達成一致協議的可能性，而不是提起訴訟，並且人們對訴訟可能需要多長時間提出了估計。因此從這個意義上來說，如果我們認為這改變了我們所使用的情景中的任何假設，那麼它絕對會被計入儲備金中。

That's great. And sorry, one more for me, Bill, just while I have you, because you're being so open with us on these. And it's very helpful for me.

那太棒了。抱歉，比爾，趁著還有時間，我還要再說一件事，因為你在這些問題上對我們太坦誠了。這對我來說非常有幫助。

But the articles on that -- the Board news are, as I said, very positive. There's a view that Trump is bondholder-friendly. Can you -- being a little closer to the situation than me, do you agree with that? And do you have any context?

但正如我所說，有關該問題的文章——董事會新聞非常積極。有一種觀點認為川普對債券持有人很友善。您—比我更了解情況，您同意這一點嗎？你有什麼背景資訊嗎？

Or have you heard him discuss Puerto Rico specifically or anything like that in terms of how his views might be different than the current Oversight Board? Or have you heard any expectations on, I guess, Trump's view of how he would resolve the difference between the island and the Oversight Board and the bondholders?

或者您是否聽過他專門討論波多黎各或類似的事情，以及他的觀點與現任監督委員會有何不同？或者您是否聽說過川普對於如何解決島嶼與監督委員會和債券持有人之間的分歧的看法？

So with regard to the last part of your question, none of us here have heard anything from the President with regard to Puerto Rico, right, whether it be any public statements, which we're unaware of any; or anything that we've heard through advisers or any of his cabinet or anything like that.

關於你問題的最後一部分，我們這裡沒有人聽到總統就波多黎各問題發表任何言論，無論是任何公開聲明（我們都不知道），還是我們透過顧問或內閣成員聽到的任何消息，諸如此類。

With regard to the early part of the question and what does this mean and how we'll be approached and the news seems to have been a positive, as you mentioned, we obviously see all the same things. Given that we've been at this for quite a long time, it would be great if, in fact, the market reaction is correct and this moves along faster than perhaps people anticipated even a week ago.

關於問題的早期部分，這意味著什麼以及我們將如何處理，並且訊息似乎是積極的，正如您所提到的，我們顯然看到了所有相同的事情。鑑於我們已經在這個領域工作了很長時間，如果市場反應確實正確，並且進展速度比人們一周前預期的還要快，那就太好了。

Whether it's going to be more friendly to bondholders, all those things, hopefully, we'll learn more in the very near future. So we like to be optimistic. But again, what we know in terms of facts are that five Board members have been dismissed, and that's all we know at this point.

無論它是否會對債券持有人更加友好，所有這些事情，希望我們能在不久的將來了解更多。所以我們喜歡保持樂觀。但再次強調，我們所知道的事實是，五名董事會成員已被解僱，這就是我們目前所知的一切。

At this time, I am showing no further questions. So I'd like to turn the floor back over to Greg Diamond. Please go ahead.

目前，我沒有其他問題。因此我想把發言權交還給 Greg Diamond。請繼續。

Thank you, Erica, and thanks to those listening to our call today. Please contact us directly if you have additional questions. We also recommend that you visit our website at mbia.com for additional information on our company. Thank you for your interest in MBIA. Good day, and goodbye.

謝謝你，艾麗卡，也謝謝今天收聽我們電話會議的各位。如果您還有其他問題，請直接與我們聯絡。我們還建議您訪問我們的網站 mbia.com 以獲取有關我們公司的更多資訊。感謝您對 MBIA 的關注。祝您有美好的一天，再見。

We'd like to thank everybody for your participation. Please feel free to disconnect your line at any time.

我們感謝大家的參與。請隨時斷開您的線路。