Live Ventures Inc (LIVE) 2007 Q4 法說會逐字稿

Good day, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to the fourth quarter and fiscal year 2007 LiveDeal Incorporated earnings conference call.

My name is Eric. I'll be your coordinator for today.

At this time, all participants are in a listen-only mode. We will facilitate a question-and-answer session towards the end of the conference. (OPERATOR INSTRUCTIONS)

I would now like to turn your presentation over to your host for today's call, Mr. John Evans. Please proceed, sir.

Good afternoon. My name is John Evans. Thank you for your interest in LiveDeal Incorporated.

With me today are the Chief Executive Officer of LiveDeal, Mr. Daniel L. Coury, Sr., John Raven, COO of LiveDeal, and Gary Perschbacher, CFO.

Some of these discussions today will involve forward-looking statements and I will now read to you the following warnings about reliance on forward-looking statements. During the course of this presentation, we may discuss LiveDeal's business outlook which contains forward-looking statements. These particular forward-looking statements and all of the statements that may be made during the presentation that are not historical facts are subject to a number of risks and uncertainties, and actual results may differ materially.

Please refer to your periodic filings on Forms 10-K and 10-Q made with the SEC for more information on the risk factors that could cause actual results to differ. The important factors that could cause results to differ materially from the Company's expectations include but are not limited to those factors which are disclosed under the heading, "Risk Factors" and also in the Company's documents filed from time to time with the United States Securities and Exchange Commission and other regulatory authorities.

Forward-looking statements made during today's call are only made as of the date of today's conference call and the Company undertakes no obligation to publicly update such forward-looking statements to reflect subsequent events.

This conference is being webcast and will be available on our Web site for replay following the call.

Now let me turn it over to Daniel Coury.

Thank you, everyone, for taking time to listen to our conference call.

This has been an important year for LiveDeal, Inc. We have made a lot of changes to the Company since this time last year. We have united the Web properties, YP.com and LiveDeal.com, creating the first combined classified Yellow Page marketplace. This makes us a unique and important player in the exciting and growing local Internet marketplace.

Full year of 2007 earnings before write-offs was $0.52. After the one-time write-off, earnings we are $0.37 per share. We hope to increase revenue and earnings per share every quarter this year and next.

We have been buying back shares in the open market and the total year-to-date is over 60,000 shares at an average price of $3.80 per share. We're working through our board authorization to buy back $1 million worth at this point.

On a revenue basis, we did $7.1 million for the quarter, which represents an 18.9% increase over the third quarter of 2007. For the 12 months, total revenue was $26.4 million.

We believe that we have successfully weathered the storm that started last year at this time and have made many positive changes this past year. We continue to expand the products and traffic that will make this a first in class Web site for small and medium size businesses to advertise on.

We are working on a model that includes revenue, EBITDA margins and net income targets for our businesses to make it easier for you to analyze and track our progress in the future. As revenue increases and the average revenue per customer grows, our margin should grow as we leverage our platform and costs for the larger group of customers.

We also are increasing the number of products available to our small and medium-size customers expanding beyond just the Yellow Page listing, expanded listings, CPC products, and premium store listings. We will do this with a more profitable platform that should allow us to increase our EBITDA and net income margins to bring them in line with other Internet companies.

LiveDeal's telemarketing capabilities in our Philippine call center are proven and highly regarded within our industry. By February, our call center in Las Vegas, which focuses on LiveDeal's premium SME marketing solutions, will be ramping up in anticipation of its move to LiveDeal's new corporate headquarters.

LiveDeal's new headquarters, located in Las Vegas, Nevada, is state-of-the-art, and will include a 96-seat call center as well as the Company's executives offices. This expanded telemarketing team now has the products targeted at vertical and geographic segments that make a compelling case for small business owners to advertise.

The local Internet space is finally getting the attention it deserves, as more and more media companies realize that companies are willing to pay a premium to bring customers to their local Internet site and local businesses. In the CPC business alone, the average local click can cost two to four times what a national click costs.

Currently, some estimates show that 55% of SME spend money on advertising, and 43% of those spend online. These small and medium businesses are looking for multiple places to advertise, to optimize their ad budgets, and we believe LiveDeal.com represents a compelling value proposition for them.

As a trusted marketing partner for small and medium businesses, we will keep them coming back to us. The key to executing this strategy will be to add content to the site and expand the presence of this content across the Internet.

This will be accomplished in several ways. We will partner with content providers that have thousands of small businesses listings that as a businesses asset are being under utilized. These content providers will benefit from our expertise as we help them fully monetize their customers.

We will work to increase the number of classified listings in our site by partnering with existing companies. It is a key element of our business plan that LiveDeal evolves to one of the Internet's largest aggregator of classified content.

We will seek out partnerships with established media brands in specific, targeted local areas in order to provide our classified technology platform to power these publisher classifieds and/or Yellow Page platform. We will continue to build out compelling content for our strongest vertical markets, autos, real estate, jobs, and specifically pets.

Ultimately, the key to success for our business will be to create users out of visitors. Consumers become habitual visitors because of the utility and value that our online media provides.

We are working on partnerships to offer small businesses without Web presence, a turnkey and hassle-free basic Web solution to complement the marketing solutions of our IYP and classifieds provides to them. This will include a Web page, URL, e-mail capabilities, premium virtual stores and keyword advertising. We will work with companies to create some cool and relevant gadgets and widgets for our site, gadgets and widgets that will not be found anywhere else on the Internet.

These cutting edge tools will further enhance LiveDeal's stickiness. It is our goal to offer compelling products and services, optimize our sales structure and staffing, capitalize on technology and content partnerships with companies like Yahoo, [IDEARIC], [Ingenio] and others, improve user experience, grow our paid and organic traffic and deliver ROI to our customers.

Rajesh is currently visiting our tech group in India, so could not be with us as a speaker on this call. He and his team continue to drive the technology needed to continue to drive the LiveDeal product road map. He will return to Santa Clara after the holidays.

I'd like to turn the meeting now over to John Raven, our COO.

Thanks, Dan.

As Dan talked about, we've been combining the operations of LiveDeal.com and YP.com into a combined classifieds and Yellow Pages platform. As we have said before, LiveDeal.com is now powering the classified and Yellow Pages for a growing number of first tier Web sites like the Philadelphia Enquirer and all the CBS affiliates.

Our strategy is to continue to build such partnerships with leading publisher Web sites. This allows us to create a local community that leverages great brands with our ability to market and add value. We believe that this will help us grow our brand and our Web traffic, continue to make LiveDeal and YP.com the local marketplace of choice for consumers and businesses.

For companies, not only will they have a Yellow Page listing, but the opportunity to upload all of their products on our classifieds platform online. For the consumer, they will be able to find real-time products and save time and effort to see us as more than just Yellow Pages.

In addition, Yellow Pages innovative technology platform allows us to power our four principal marketing channels, directories, mobile services, classified and advertising distribution networks into a first of its kind, hyperlocal marketing solution for businesses and consumers. LiveDeal offers such industry-leading classifieds functionality as fraud protection, identity protection, listing enhancements, photos, community building, package pricing, premium stores, featured Yellow Page business listings and advanced local search capabilities.

LiveDeal technology also lets consumers search or browse for items in a particular city, state or ZIP code and sort by distance. As a profitable strong classifieds and Yellow Page company, LiveDeal will continue to invest in and provide the best possible user experience for local consumers and businesses. What matters to consumers and businesses is results at an affordable cost and we will provide that.

We have announced some of the new Web 2.0 features and functionality that we discussed on our last call. In the last quarter we had announced Feedback 2.0, this is the next generation of our feedback system.

Consumers can search over 13.5 million local businesses such as restaurants, plumbers, breeders, et cetera, and rate their experience from a range of 1 to 5. These feedback ratings will be propagated across and be visible to other consumers on the LiveDeal Yellow Pages and classifieds platforms.

Community Board 2.0. This enhanced threaded forum allows users to create topics and invite other community members to contribute by adding content. Over time these forums will generate and user generated content around interesting topics and categories.

LiveDeal videos. This will enable businesses to upload videos of their stores and products on the Yellow Pages and classifieds platforms. We've completed a unified Yellow Pages platform that will power both YP.com and LiveDeal Yellow Pages. In the next quarter we will add other features focused more around our mobile distribution platform.

To improve organizational effectiveness and eliminate redundancies, reduce cost and enhance the Company's competitive position, LiveDeal plans to complete next quarter, the transition of the Company's Mesa, Arizona customer service function to its Manilla call center and consolidate its corporate and customer service administrative services, IT operations and other support functions to its international headquarters in Las Vegas, Nevada.

LiveDeal plans to implement a shared services concept throughout the Company, thereby eliminating redundancies of staff and functions. Benefits will begin to be realized in mid 2008 with a majority of savings to occur by late fiscal 2008.

The competitive advantage of this consolidation and move are access to an experienced pool of outbound and IYP specific sales force, it positions the LiveDeal's offerings for further cross selling and upselling to an existing customer. The sales force in Las Vegas is further better equipped to maximize opportunities for increased ARPU on sales originated or upsold from the Las Vegas operation. LiveDeal will continue to innovate and add value to consumers and businesses.

Now I'd like to turn the call over to Gary Perschbacher, the CFO.

Good afternoon.

Net income for the 12 months ended September 30, 2007 was approximately $1.8 million versus an approximate net operating loss of $1.1 million in fiscal 2006, and earnings per share increased to $0.37 per share versus fiscal 2006 operating loss per share of $0.23.

Net revenues for fiscal 2007 were $26.4 million as compared to $32 million for fiscal 2006. The decrease was primarily attributable to the Attorney General settlement which resulted in loss of approximately 15,000 customers.

Revenues declined in the first three quarters of fiscal 2007 but have since increased in the fourth quarter. Net revenue for the fourth quarter in fiscal 2007 was $7.1 million versus approximately $6.0 million in the third quarter of fiscal 2007.

Cost of services increased in fiscal 2007 as compared to fiscal 2006 due to an increase in usage of wet billing, which has a higher cost than other billing channels. We also incurred an approximately $377,000 charge to bad debt expense as one of our aggregators has filed for Chapter 11 protection.

Gross profit for the fiscal 2007 was $22.1 million versus fiscal 2006 gross profit of $27.9 million. This decrease, again, was attributable to a higher costs of services and to lower revenues. Gross margin percentages were 84% for fiscal 2007 and 87% for fiscal 2006.

Operating expenses totaled $18.8 million for fiscal 2007 as compared to $29.5 million for fiscal 2006. This represents a 36% decrease from fiscal 2006.

The decrease is primarily due to decreases in compensation expense, customer service related expenses, settlement expenses and a decrease in direct mail campaigns related expenses. Again, most of this was attributable to the Attorney General settlement.

Partially offsetting the savings were increases in travel expenses which were related mostly to investor relation activities and increased amortization cost, the most significant of which were marketing and technology related intangible assets that were acquired through our recent acquisitions.

Operating income increased 313% from prior year. Income from operations in fiscal 2007 was $3.3 million versus an operating loss of $1.6 million in fiscal 2006. Again, the decrease is attributable to lower revenues offset by lower operating expenses.

Income tax provision for 2007 was $1.9 million as compared to an income tax benefit of $312,000 in fiscal 2006. This increase is primarily due to our change in pre-tax income, however, in fiscal 2007 we incurred an additional income tax expense of $500,000 due to book tax difference and recognition of restricted stock awards as a portion of our restricted stock grants vested at stock prices lower than the stock price of grant date and thus the tax effects on the awards vesting were less than the carrying value of the related deferred tax assets.

LiveDeal had $5.7 million of cash on hand and $11.3 million of total working capital as of September 30, 2007. The Company still has no long-term debt and shareholder equity grew to $37.7 million at the end of fiscal 2007 as compared to $22.4 million at September 30, 2006. This increase was due to profitability and issuance of shares for the LiveDeal acquisition.

Net cash provided by operations before the payment of $3 million Attorney General settlement was $4.8 million. After including a one-time settlement expense, net cash provided by operations decreased approximately $657,000 to $1.8 million for fiscal 2007 as compared with $2.4 million in fiscal 2006. Net cash used in investing activities totaled $2.2 million in fiscal 2007 and included net cash outflows of $4.1 million for the acquisition of LiveDeal and on-call subscriber management.

LiveDeal had approximately $1.1 million in expenditures for equipment, software and other intangibles and the Company liquidated $3.1 million in certificates of deposits and other investments. Net cash for financing activities was $310,000 and consisted primarily of repurchases of stock owned by (inaudible) shareholders in connection with the LiveDeal acquisition.

I'll turn it back over to Dan Coury.

Thank you, Gary.

As you can see, we had a very exciting 2007 and we're going to have even more exciting 2008 as we became and become a solid player in the local Internet search market.

At this time, I'd like to open it up to questions. John? Anybody who'd like to make a question, please notify on your computer and we'll be able to bring you on. Is our operator still on there?

(OPERATOR INSTRUCTIONS) The first question comes from the line of Colin Gillis with Canaccord. Please proceed.

Yes, good afternoon, everyone.

Good afternoon.

Gary, could you just talk a little bit about, with all the strides that LiveDeal's made over the last year, a lot of other players are talking about setting up their own call centers and, you know, pursuing a direct marketing to local businesses. Do you expect to see more competition coming forward in 2008?

Yes, I expect there will be more competition, but there's one thing it's very, very difficult to make a call center profitable and working. We went through some unbelievable testing and trials to get to the call centers that we have now, and so we are absolutely not worried about us getting our share. It's a large market out there and we're already set up to be able to do it.

This is John Raven. I'd like to add to that.

Having a call center is not the only ingredient you need so there are several barriers to entry. One is the sales force, the call center component then there's the technology platform.

Then there's the Internet component, and then being able to unify each of those into -- and then monetize it into a business model such as ours is not an easy task, not to mention the types of agreements that you have to have in place in order to successfully execute on that type of business plan. Those are all going to be significant barriers to entry, which we've got roughly about 5 to 10 years experience in several of those areas.

Great.

And then just looking at the RKV, you've got a pretty healthy number going on there. Any color as to directionally where that can go in the next year or so?

Well, we're right now, at the present time, putting together the model for that, but we're not giving any forward-looking statements. As you can see from where we are in the past quarter, we've been making progress, and the one thing we have been saying publicly is that we will continue to be profitable while we invest into the structure and platform of this company going forward.

Got it. Got it. But in terms of the monetization levels, could you give us any color as to whether that can lift forward or whether pricing pressure's going to cause that number to pull back?

I don't see anything pulling us back.

Okay. Great. Fantastic. All right. Thank you.

Thank you.

Your next question comes from the line of Kenneth Smith with Lennox Equity Research. Please proceed.

Thanks.

The first question is, are these results audited or not? On your statement it says they're not, but I would have assumed they would be since they're year-end. Can you answer that?

Please repeat that question, please?

Were your financial reports -- are they audited or not? On the report it --

The attachment to the press release shows it's unaudited because a 10-K has not been released.

Okay.

It should be released in the next day or so.

Okay. That's the only thing missing then?

Yes.

Okay. All right.

We had to go -- because we changed auditors.

All right.

We have two years from our prior auditor, and they need to review the K and issue a report, and I should have that later this afternoon.

Okay.

And then can one of you guys reconcile the revenue you reported to the 81,000 Yellow Page listings customers? I guess, when you do the math, it comes out to about $1 million higher than net revenue. Is that because this is really the gross revenue that makes up this monthly amount?

Right. We do the ARPU, average revenue per unit, on a gross basis.

Okay. All right. Thanks.

Thank you. The next question comes from the line of Peter Cyrus with Gorilla Capital. Please proceed.

Hello, Peter.

I'm a little confused so maybe you guys can just help me get a little unconfused. First, just so I understand the numbers, I know you said that you're not giving guidance, but did you all -- you said somewhere in there that the coming quarters would be better than the past quarters or something like that? I just want to understand what you said about that first.

Yes. What we plan on doing is continuing to be profitable while we invest in the Company and we do not see a pulling back.

Okay. So that means that you expect higher profits and theoretically higher profits in the coming year than you had this year. Is that what I heard, or am I misreading that?

No, you're not misreading that, but we, like I mentioned and spoke with you about, we are doing a lot of investing in our platform.

Right.

Going through 2008.

So 2009 would be whatever earnings, big earnings bump you're going to get would be 2009 not 2008?

We are gearing everything so that we can ramp up at the end of 2008 even more with all the investments that we're doing into 2008 into our platform, but we will stay absolutely profitable while we do that.

Is there, you know, there were a lot of moving pieces here. There's the, what I call the original -- there's your original Yellow Pages business. You know, there's the call center business and there's the LiveDeal business. Is there any way to figure out, you know, sort of which is -- where the earnings are coming from and where, you know, which is which?

Let me help you with that.

How do I look at that, I guess, is what I'm asking.

Yes, let me help you with that. There is one company, which is LiveDeal.com that has the YP.com URL also. So that as you're going to see in the next coming quarter, you're going to see how this is becoming more and more blended together.

Our marketing will be for taking care of the small and medium businesses. A lot of them now are asking for CPC, cost per click. Some of them want a complete spread in their entire products out there.

We are going to give the service including the Yellow Page ad, their mini Web page so it's all one, which is services to the small businesses. So we will be expanding on that.

Now, if you say, well, which one is going to draw more revenue than the other, it's sort of all together because by offering this, as a company needs additional services, they're going to be coming back to us because of the service we gave them. So really it is a service provider on the Internet for small and medium businesses.

So should I be looking for higher numbers of customers -- advertisers/customers? Should I be looking for higher average monthly ticket per advertiser?

What are the measures that I should be looking for as, because if I listen to you with what you're investing and what you've got, looking at the earnings now, you must be looking if things work, you should make a lot of money in 2009. Is that a reasonable view?

This is John Raven.

That's a reasonable assumption. The components, to add to what Dan was talking about, it's really three areas. One is the monthly subscription base, which is currently averaging at about $30 so that's a, $30 a month per user. So we plan to add to that and we have exactly, by the way, 1.0 products per customer.

We hope to expand that in the next, over the course of the business plan to a point where we have 2.5 to 3 products per customer on average. So we're going to get a bump there.

The other bump we're shooting for is related to the RKV question earlier, the increased monetization. We're adding components such as traffic generation, you know, a reselling of traffic and partnering with distribution, and then revenue shares with partner sites where we distribute our content with other large brands. So all of those together combined should have an effect of lifting the revenue multiple ways.

But those are all ways of basically lifting the revenue per customer.

That's correct.

Per subscriber, whatever way you want to express that.

For a specific measurement, you should see over time an increase in the average revenue per unit.

Right. Will we be seeing, in your view, is there also a goal in your view to see an increase in that 80, you know, 83,000 or whatever that number in the number of businesses using the service?

You've got to understand, we are increasing the number of users of the service because of the classified platform also. And this is a number that is going to increase in addition to others.

We would like to see the bottom-line revenue, the revenue grow, but we will be growing it in every area, specifically the classified area, to bring more traffic and use to the site, and in turn, there will be growth, most likely, in every category. Now the percentage of that growth is something that we'll be able to test and see as we move forward through '08.

And then to add to that, if you recall earlier in the discussion, we had mentioned an increase in average listing price. So that's a specific metric you probably want to track over time. You know, the customer ASP increased 10% from third quarter of '07 to 4-'05 from 369 the year before on an annualized basis. So that's an example of a metric that you could use to track over time.

And is there any way to figure out, I mean, there's so many moving, there's so many moving pieces here, you know, my gut tells me you make a lot of money, but, you know, I can't figure out how to do an earnings model.

And that's what we're working on.

What?

And that's what we're working on, that Dan mentioned.

And when do you think you'll get to a point where, you know, some sort of semi-educated person like me could figure this out in an easy way?

Very soon. We're working on it. We would just like to make sure that we have the model tested and working before we give it out, but it won't be long.

Great. Thanks a lot, guys.

Okay. Thank you.

Your next question comes from the line of Luigi [Ravero] with Sport USA. Please proceed.

Hi. Great job. Great quarter.

My question is, what do you think is going to be the saving cost on the lease term that you have moving all of those facility from one to, you know, closing up the Mesa one and combining the new facility with the old one? And what the percentage on lease and how much you're going to pay monthly basis?

Well, let me answer that. There's a couple of way that we're going to saving. One we will save straight off the bat. That's probably going to be anywhere from $30,000 to $80,000 per month.

But that's not the real savings completely. One, being we're close to the true telemarketing trained people that can do the upsell, that's going to be very large in this transition. Also we're within an hour to an hour and a half of our engineering in Santa Clara.

So we have already have this going on where people can come down for a day and work with our sales crew so that everything is working in unison together as a team. So this is working out very well because it's quick for a day trip. So all the way around there's going to be some good savings that will help our profitability.

Great.

And another question is, I'm very pleased that you are mentioning that you repurchased back some of your shares in a amount of around $1 million worth of stock. That's very good news for me. I really appreciate that. And if you have in the future any other vision to purchase more shares with the cash that we do have sitting on our account.

Well, we have been authorized by the board of directors to buy back $1 million worth. Whether they're going to authorize to do more is something that the board of directors will be discussing, but thank you very much on that.

Yes. Lovely. I appreciate it. Great quarter. Thank you. Bye-bye.

Thank you.

(OPERATOR INSTRUCTIONS) Your next question comes from the line of Bill Wolfenden with RF Investments. Please proceed.

Hi.

Can I ask you a couple of questions? First of all, what's the fully diluted shares out number?

Second of all, can you talk about, since we're almost done with the quarter, maybe without giving guidance, just current trends, are things like the ARPU still trending in the right direction? Are you still tracking to your goal of adding a net 5,000 Yellow Page customers per quarter?

In terms of shares outstanding, it's roughly 4.7 million.

That's the fully diluted number?

Right.

Okay. What was the 6.7 million number, I think, that was in the last --

Yes, we have a restricted stock program.

Yes.

Unvested shares and you've got to look at the unvested amount as proceeds and you end up buying back those shares on the open market. That's why it's lower than the 6.7 million that's normally out there as outstanding shares.

So the real number is 6.7?

Right.

The real number is 6.7 with a buyback. We're going to be down to around 6.6 real soon and so that's the trend of where it's at today, and, you know, everything else is progressing well.

We're doing a large focus now going forward on our classified listings. We expect them to go up quite a bit. Whether the Yellow Page goes up at exactly 5,000 or whether we have surges on that or less, we're not saying, but we are saying that this quarter I'm feeling fine. Let's just put it that way.

These numbers will be out soon, and we're not including in some of that some of the numbers we are getting from our classifieds and so on. So it's looking good.

Okay.

And then I heard a couple different things on the call. One, I heard, we're going to continue to be profitable while we invest in the Company. That could mean that you earn a penny next year, or, and then another time I heard that you're going to earn more in '08 than you earned in '07, which would imply greater than $0.37 a share.

So which is it? Is it you're going to be profitable and make only a couple pennies a share or you're going to earn more than you earned in 2007?

We plan on investing a lot in this company at the same time of staying profitable, equal or in excess, probably in excess of the last year.

Okay. So you're going to earn $0.37 or more in fiscal '08?

That's the plan.

Okay. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you all very much. We really do -- we have another question?

Yes. We have one more question in the queue from the line. Okay. From the line of Joe Jolson with JMP Assessment.

Hey guys. Sorry.

I was a little confused with that as well, with, like, the last question. Did I -- did you guys say earlier that you thought that each quarter would be higher than the previous quarter?

Yes. Revenue should continue to grow, yes.

That was for revenues, not necessarily for earnings?

That's correct. Gross revenues should continue to grow and don't plan on, you know, doing anything negative with our earnings, but we do plan on continuing to grow our revenues.

So when you look at the, it was $0.13 the operating number in the fourth quarter?

Gary?

No. It was 8 -- would you repeat that question again, please?

Well, it says in the press release non-GAAP earnings were $0.13.

Okay, yes.

I assume that that reserve's non-recurring?

Yes, there were some expenses in there that, you know, like, for instance, there was $1 million for a direct mail campaign in October which, you know, obviously wasn't carried forward in the remainder of the year due to the Attorney General settlement.

Right.

And then there's a $377,000 charge for bad debt expense for the Chapter 11 filing of one of our aggregators.

So, but just looking at $0.13 is kind of the run rate. Is that fair?

You know, I'm sorry. I'm having a difficult time hearing you.

$0.13 is the run rate?

Basically, yes.

Okay. So, and you expect the top line to grow without anything crazy on the expense side, so wouldn't the number to look at --

To invest in our future for 2009, and we're putting together a model as to what our expenditures are going to be. So, you know, we don't anticipate it dropping, but we are investing for 2009.

Yes, I know. I just want to be clear. When you say that you expect earnings to be higher than they were a year ago, were you talking about $0.37 or $0.52?

Higher than the $0.37.

Okay. The difference between the two, though, is things like this bad debt reserve, though, right?

Yes. That's correct. There was some in there and it will all come according to how much we invest in the Company and which of some of our verticals that we're beginning to market take off quicker than others. We know what's working.

Some of them are beginning to, well, we'll be ramping up sooner than others. So that's why we're, you know, we're not saying that it's going to be how much higher at this time as we put our model together for going forward, but it definitely, we plan on it being higher than last year.

Okay. Thanks.

Thank you.

We show no more audio questions. Thank you.

Thank you all very much. I really do appreciate it and we look forward to talking to you again in our earnings call in the next quarter. Thank you.

Thank you for your participation in today's conference. This concludes our presentation. You may now disconnect and have a good day.