Ladder Capital Corp (LADR) 2025 Q3 法說會逐字稿

Good morning and welcome to Ladder Capital Corp's earnings call for the 3rd quarter of 2025. As a reminder, today's call is being recorded.

早安，歡迎參加 Ladder Capital Corp 2025 年第三季財報電話會議。再次提醒，今天的通話將會被錄音。

This morning, latter released its financial results for the quarter ended September 30th, 2025. Before the call begins, I'd like to call your attention to the customary Safe Harbor disclosure in our earnings released regarding forward-looking statements. Today's call may include forward-looking statements and projections, and we refer you to our most recent form 10k for important factors that could cause actual results to differ materially from these statements and projections.

今天上午，該公司公佈了截至 2025 年 9 月 30 日的季度財務業績。在電話會議開始之前，我想提請各位注意我們在發布的收益報告中關於前瞻性陳述的慣例性「安全港」披露。今天的電話會議可能包含前瞻性陳述和預測，請參閱我們最新的 10-K 表格，以了解可能導致實際結果與這些陳述和預測有重大差異的重要因素。

We do not undertake any obligation to update our forward-looking statements or projections unless required by law. In addition, latter will discuss certain non-GAAP financial measures on this call, which management believes are relevant to assessing the company's financial performance. The company's presentation of this information is not intended to be considered in isolation or as a substitute for the financial information presented in accordance with gaps.

除非法律要求，否則我們不承擔更新前瞻性聲明或預測的任何義務。此外，後者將在本次電話會議上討論一些非GAAP財務指標，管理層認為這些指標與評估公司的財務表現有關。公司提供的這些資訊不應被孤立地看待，也不應被視為替代根據《財務報告缺口分析》提供的財務資訊。

These measures are reconciled to GAAP figures in our earnings supplement presentation, which is available in the investor relations section of our website. We also refer you to our Form 10k and earnings supplement presentation for definitions of certain metrics which we may cite on today's call. At this time, I'd like to turn the call over to latter's President Pamela McCormack.

這些指標已在我們的獲利補充簡報中與 GAAP 數據進行了核對，該簡報可在我們網站的投資者關係部分查閱。對於我們今天電話會議上可能會引用的某些指標的定義，請參閱我們的 10-K 表格和收益補充簡報。此時，我想把電話交給後者的總裁帕梅拉‧麥考馬克。

Good morning. During the third quarter, latter generated distributable earnings of $32.1 million or $0.25 per share, delivering a return on equity of 8.3% with modest adjusted leverage of 1.7 times.

早安.第三季度，後者產生可分配收益 3,210 萬美元，即每股 0.25 美元，股本回報率為 8.3%，調整後槓桿率為 1.7 倍。

Credit performance remained stable, and the quota was marked by 3 notable developments, a significant acceleration in the loan originations.

信貸表現保持穩定，配額中出現了 3 個顯著變化，其中貸款發放量顯著加快。

Continued progress in reducing office loan exposure and the successful closing of our inaugural investment grade bond offering.

在降低辦公貸款風險敞口方面持續取得進展，並成功完成了我們的首次投資等級債券發行。

These results reflect our disciplined business model and conservative balance sheet philosophy, positioning ladder for continued earnings growth and greater capacity to capitalize on investment opportunities across market cycles.

這些成果反映了我們嚴謹的商業模式和保守的資產負債表理念，為持續的獲利成長奠定了基礎，並增強了我們在各個市場週期中把握投資機會的能力。

Loan portfolio activity.

貸款組合活動。

Origination activity accelerated in the 3rd quarter with $511 million of new loans across 17 transactions at a weighted average spread of 279 basis points.

第三季貸款發放活動加速，新增貸款金額達 5.11 億美元，共完成 17 筆交易，加權平均利差為 279 個基點。

Our highest quarterly origination volume in over 3 years.

創下三年多來最高的季度貸款發放量。

The spread reflects the mix of assets originated, which were predominantly multi-family and industrial, consistent with our focus on stable income producing collateral.

利差反映了所發放資產的組合，這些資產主要為多戶住宅和工業地產，這與我們專注於穩定收益型抵押品的理念相符。

Net of $129 million in paydowns, the loan portfolio grew by approximately $354 million to $1.9 billion now representing 40% of total assets.

扣除 1.29 億美元的還款後，貸款組合成長了約 3.54 億美元，達到 19 億美元，目前佔總資產的 40%。

Year-to-date we originated over a billion dollars in new loans.

今年迄今為止，我們已發放超過十億美元的新貸款。

With an additional $500 million under application and in closing.

另有 5 億美元的投資正在申請中，即將完成。

Notably, the full payoff of our third largest office loan, a $63 million dollar loan secured by an office property in Birmingham, Alabama, reduced office loan exposure to $652 million or 14% of total assets.

值得注意的是，我們第三大辦公貸款（一筆 6,300 萬美元的貸款，以阿拉巴馬州伯明罕的一處辦公物業作抵押）已全部償還，使辦公貸款敞口減少至 6.52 億美元，佔總資產的 14%。

Approximately 50% of the remaining offices loan portfolio consists of two well-performing loans secured by the Citigroup Tower in downtown Miami and the Aventura Corporate Center in Aventura, Florida.

剩餘辦公大樓貸款組合中約 50% 為兩筆表現良好的貸款，分別以邁阿密市中心的 Citigroup Tower 和佛羅裡達州阿文圖拉的 Aventura Corporate Center 為抵押。

Securities portfolio.

證券投資組合。

As of September 30th, our securities portfolio totaled $1.9 billion representing 40% of total assets.

截至9月30日，我們的證券投資組合總額為19億美元，佔總資產的40%。

During the quarter we acquired $365 million in AAA rated securities.

本季我們收購了價值 3.65 億美元的 AAA 級證券。

Received $164 million in paydowns through amortization and sold $257 million for securities, generating a $2 million net gain.

透過攤銷收回了 1.64 億美元的款項，並出售了 2.57 億美元的證券，淨賺 200 萬美元。

Paydowns and sales exceeded purchases, resulting in a modest net reduction in securities holdings this quarter.

本季償還和出售超過了購買，導致證券持有量淨減少幅度不大。

This reflects our disciplined approach to capital allocation, as we did not replace certain securities that ran off, consistent with our view that spreads may widen in the mortgage market, given recent volatility and the Federal Reserve's ongoing runoff of mortgage backed securities.

這反映了我們對資本配置的嚴謹態度，因為我們沒有替換某些到期的證券，這與我們認為鑑於近期市場波動和聯準會持續註銷抵押貸款支持證券，抵押貸款市場的利差可能會擴大的觀點相一致。

Consistent carry income from our real estate portfolio.

我們的房地產投資組合可提供穩定的收益。

Our $960 million real estate portfolio generated $15.1 million in net operating income during the third quarter.

我們價值 9.6 億美元的房地產投資組合在第三季產生了 1,510 萬美元的淨營業收入。

The portfolio primarily consists of net lease properties with long-term leases to investment grade rated tenants and continues to deliver stable, predictable income.

該投資組合主要由淨租賃物業組成，與投資級租戶簽訂了長期租賃合同，並持續提供穩定、可預測的收入。

Capital structure and liquidity.

資本結構和流動性。

During the 3rd quarter, we closed our inaugural $500 million and $0.05 year investment grade unsecured bond offering at a rate of 5.5%, representing 167 basis point spread over the benchmark treasury.

第三季度，我們完成了首次 5 億美元、0.05 年期投資等級無擔保債券發行，利率為 5.5%，比基準公債殖利率高出 167 個基點。

The tightest new issue has spread in lat of history.

史上最嚴重的新問題已經蔓延開來。

The offering was met with strong demand, and the bonds have since traded tighter in the secondary market, reaching spreads as low as 120 basis points.

此次發行需求強勁，債券在二級市場交易價格持續走低，利差一度低至 120 個基點。

This transaction validates the strength of our conservative balance sheet philosophy and disciplined business model.

此次交易驗證了我們穩健的資產負債表理念和嚴謹的商業模式的有效性。

As one of our premier debt capital markets bankers noted, it also firmly planted latter's flag in the investment grade market.

正如我們一位頂尖的債務資本市場銀行家所指出的那樣，這也使後者在投資等級市場站穩了腳跟。

The continued tightening of our bonds positions thus the lower borrowing costs, stronger execution, and improved shareholder returns.

我們持續收緊債券頭寸，進而降低借貸成本，增強執行力，提高股東回報。

As of quarter end, 75% of latter's debt consisted of unsecured corporate bonds, and 84% of our balance sheet assets remain unencumbered.

截至季末，後者的債務中有 75% 為無擔保公司債券，而我們資產負債表上的資產中有 84% 仍未被抵押。

We maintain $879 million in liquidity, including $49 million in cash, and $830 million of undrawn capacity on our unsecured revolver, which provides same-day liquidity at highly competitive rates.

我們擁有 8.79 億美元的流動資金，其中包括 4,900 萬美元現金，以及 8.3 億美元的未提取無擔保循環信貸額度，該額度能夠以極具競爭力的利率提供當日流動性。

Outlook latter's unique investment grade balance sheet, disciplined use of unsecured debt, and robust origination platform positions us to capitalize on investment opportunities while maintaining prudent credit risk management.

Outlook 憑藉其獨特的投資等級資產負債表、對無擔保債務的嚴格使用以及強大的貸款發起平台，使我們能夠抓住投資機會，同時保持審慎的信用風險管理。

We expect 4th quarter loan originations to exceed 3rd quarter production.

我們預計第四季貸款發放量將超過第三季。

Recent credit rating upgrades and our successful inaugural investment grade bond issuance have lowered our cost of debt and expanded our access to a deeper, more stable capital base that remains consistently available across market cycles.

近期信用評等提升以及我們成功發行首筆投資等級債券，降低了我們的債務成本，並擴大了我們獲得更深厚、更穩定的資本基礎的管道，該資本基礎在市場週期中始終可用。

Over time, we expect our strong balance sheet, modest leverage, and reliable funding profile to position the ladder alongside a broader set of high-quality peers, including equity rates rather than solely within the commercial mortgage rate space.

隨著時間的推移，我們預計我們強大的資產負債表、適度的槓桿率和可靠的融資狀況將使我們躋身於更廣泛的高品質同行行列，包括股權利率，而不僅僅是商業抵押貸款利率領域。

As investors increasingly recognize the strength of our senior secured investment strategy and conservative capital structure, we believe our equity valuation will reflect this alignment.

隨著投資者越來越認識到我們高級擔保投資策略和保守資本結構的優勢，我們相信我們的股權估值將反映出這種一致性。

Combined with our disciplined credit risk management and ability to deploy capital with speed and certainty, these attributes reinforce our capacity to deliver strong, stable returns for shareholders across market cycles.

結合我們嚴謹的信用風險管理和快速、確定地部署資本的能力，這些優勢增強了我們為股東在整個市場週期中帶來強勁、穩定回報的能力。

With that, I'll turn the call over to Paul.

接下來，我將把電話交給保羅。

Thank you, Pamela. In the third quarter of 2025, latter generated $32.1 million of distributable earnings for $0.25 per share, achieving a return on average equity of 8.3%. In the third quarter, we closed our inaugural investment grade bond offering of $500 million and $0.05 year bond at 5.5%. The proceeds were partially used to call the remaining $285 million of bonds that were maturing in October, and fund loop loan originations.

謝謝你，帕梅拉。2025年第三季度，後者創造了3,210萬美元的可分配收益，每股收益0.25美元，平均股本回報率為8.3%。第三季度，我們完成了首次投資等級債券發行，發行規模為5億美元，期限為0.05年，殖利率為5.5%。所得款項部分用於贖回10月份到期的剩餘2.85億美元債券，部分用於循環貸款的發放。

As of corporate end, $2.2 billion or 75% of our debt is comprised of unsecured corporate bonds across four issuances with a weighted average remaining term of 4 years and a weighted average coupon of 5.3%. Our next corporate bond maturity is now in 2027.

截至公司帳末，我們22億美元（佔總債務的75%）的債務由四期無擔保公司債組成，加權平均剩餘期限為4年，加權平均票面利率為5.3%。我們下一筆公司債將於2027年到期。

The offering strengthened our balance sheet and affirmed our commitment to the investment grade bond market as our primary source of capital.

此次發行增強了我們的資產負債表，並重申了我們對投資等級債券市場作為主要資金來源的承諾。

We're encouraged by the bonds strong trading performance in the secondary market and believe our bonds offer attractive relative value to fixed income investors with meat on the bones and tighten further as the market continues to recognize latter's distinct long-standing investment strategy anchored by conservative lending attachment points, AAA rated securities, high-quality real estate equity investments.

我們對債券在二級市場的強勁交易表現感到鼓舞，並相信我們的債券為固定收益投資者提供了有吸引力的相對價值，並且隨著市場繼續認可我們獨特的長期投資策略（該策略以保守的貸款附加點、AAA 級證券和高品質的房地產股權投資為基礎），我們的債券價值將進一步收緊。

As of September 30th, 2025, latter's liquidity liquidity was $879 million comprised of cash and cash equivalents, and an undrawn capacity on $850 million dollar unsecured revolver.

截至 2025 年 9 月 30 日，後者的流動性為 8.79 億美元，包括現金及現金等價物，以及 8.5 億美元無擔保循環信貸額度的未提取額度。

Total growth leverage was 2.0 times as the quarter ends below our target leverage range.

本季總成長槓桿率為 2.0 倍，低於我們設定的目標槓桿率範圍。

Overall, ourga remains strong and primed for continued growth as our investment pipeline continues to build.

總體而言，隨著投資項目的不斷推進，ourga 依然保持強勁勢頭，並已做好持續成長的準備。

As of September 30th, 2025, or unencumbered asset pools to the $3.9 billion or 84% of the total assets.

截至 2025 年 9 月 30 日，未受限制的資產池達到 39 億美元，佔總資產的 84%。

88% of this unencumbered asset pool is comprised of the first mortgage zones, invest in great securities, and unrestricted cash and cash corporals.

這筆未受限制的資產池中，88% 由第一抵押權、優質證券投資、非限制性現金和現金資產組成。

As of September 30, 2025, latter's unpreciated book value per share was $13.71 which is net of a $0.41 per share Cils are established.

截至 2025 年 9 月 30 日，後者每股未折舊帳面價值為 13.71 美元，扣除已設立的每股 0.41 美元的資本利得稅。

In the third quarter of 2025, we were purchased $1.9 million of common stock for 171,000 shares at a weighted average price of $11.04 per share.

2025 年第三季度，我們以每股 11.04 美元的加權平均價格，購入了價值 190 萬美元的普通股，共 171,000 股。

The year-to-date in 2025, we purchased $9.3 million of common stock, or 877,000 shares at a weighted average price of $10.60 per share.

截至 2025 年，我們已購買了價值 930 萬美元的普通股，即 877,000 股，加權平均價格為每股 10.60 美元。

As of September 30th, 2025, $91.5 million remains outstanding on a lattice stock repurchase program.

截至 2025 年 9 月 30 日，格子股票回購計畫仍有 9,150 萬美元未完成。

In the third quarter, latter declared a $0.23 per share dividend, which was paid on October 15, 2025.

第三季度，該公司宣布派發每股 0.23 美元的股息，並於 2025 年 10 月 15 日支付。

As of today, our dividend yield is approximately 8.5% with the stock price that we believe is pulled down by the broader market concerns around private credit.

截至今日，我們的股息殖利率約為 8.5%，我們認為股價下跌是由於市場對私募信貸的普遍擔憂所致。

We'll note that our dividend remains stable.

值得注意的是，我們的股息保持穩定。

And our asset base continues to turn over into freshly originated loans, AAA securities, high-quality real estate equity investments.

我們的資產基礎不斷轉化為新發放的貸款、AAA級證券和高品質的房地產股權投資。

With with with a stable earnings base complemented by our investment grade capital structure, we believe there's ample room for our dividend yield to tighten, specifically when compared to other investment grad rates with similar credit ratings to latter.

憑藉穩定的獲利基礎和投資等級資本結構，我們認為我們的股息殖利率還有很大的收緊空間，特別是與其他信用評級類似的投資級股息收益率相比。

We continue to expand our investor outreach efforts. Now as an investment grid company, and we look forward to further educating the market on our stories.

我們將繼續擴大與投資者的溝通管道。現在，作為一家投資網格公司，我們期待進一步向市場普及我們的故事。

Building on Pamela's overview of our performance, I'll highlight a few additional insights how each of our segments fared in the 3rd quarter.

在 Pamela 對我們業績的概述基礎上，我將重點介紹我們各個業務板塊在第三季度的表現的一些其他見解。

As of September 30th, 2025, our loan portfolio totaled $1.9 billion with a weighted average yield of approximately 8.2%. As a court, we had 3 loans on non-accrual, totaling $123 million or 2.6% of total assets.

截至 2025 年 9 月 30 日，我們的貸款組合總額為 19 億美元，加權平均殖利率約為 8.2%。作為法院，我們有 3 筆非應計貸款，總額為 1.23 億美元，佔總資產的 2.6%。

In the third quarter, we resolved two non-accrual loans. First through the payoff at par of a $16 million dollar loan through the sale through the sale by a sponsor of two mixed use properties in New York City.

第三季度，我們解決了兩筆非應計貸款。首先，透過出售紐約市兩處混合用途房產，以面額償還了一筆 1,600 萬美元的貸款。

And the second be a foreclosure of a loan collateralized by an office property in Maryland with a carrying value of $22.7 million.

第二件事是取消對馬裡蘭州一處帳面價值為 2,270 萬美元的辦公物業作為抵押的貸款的贖回權。

No new loans, it's not accrual in the 3rd quarter.

沒有新增貸款，第三季不計入應計利息。

Our reserve remains steady at $52 million or $0.41 per share.

我們的儲備金保持穩定，為 5,200 萬美元，即每股 0.41 美元。

We believe this reserve is adequate to cover any potential losses in our loan portfolio, including consideration of the ongoing macroeconomic shifts in the US and global economy.

我們認為，這筆儲備金足以彌補我們貸款組合中任何潛在的損失，包括考慮到美國和全球經濟持續的宏觀經濟變化。

As September 30th, 2025, our securities portfolio totaled $1.9 billion with the rated average yield of 5.7%, of which 99% was investment grade and 96% was AAA rated, underscoring the portfolio's high credit quality.

截至 2025 年 9 月 30 日，我們的證券投資組合總額為 19 億美元，評級平均收益率為 5.7%，其中 99% 為投資等級，96% 為 AAA 級，凸顯了該投資組合的高信用品質。

As a quarter end, approximately 80% of the portfolio of almost entirely AAA securities were unencumbered and readily financeable, providing an additional source of liquidity, complementing our safety and liquidity of $879 million.

截至季末，幾乎全部為 AAA 級證券的投資組合中約 80% 沒有抵押，且易於融資，從而提供了額外的流動性來源，補充了我們 8.79 億美元的安全性和流動性。

In the third quarter, a $960 million dollar real estate segment continued to generate stable net operating income.

第三季度，價值 9.6 億美元的房地產業務部門繼續產生穩定的淨營業收入。

The portfolio includes 149 net lease properties, primarily investmentgra credits, committed to long-term leases, with an average lease term of 7 years remaining.

該投資組合包括 149 個淨租賃物業，主要為投資信貸，並已簽訂長期租賃協議，平均剩餘租賃期限為 7 年。

Further information on lattice third quarter 2025 operating results refer to our earnings supplement presentation, which is available on our website and our quarterly report on Form 10, which we expect to file in the coming days.

有關 Lattice 2025 年第三季度經營業績的更多信息，請參閱我們的收益補充演示文稿（可在我們的網站上查閱）以及我們預計將在未來幾天提交的 10 表格季度報告。

With that, I will turn the call over to Brian.

接下來，我將把電話交給布萊恩。

Thanks, Paul.

謝謝你，保羅。

The 3rd quarter was a particularly gratifying one, highlighted by the successful completion of our first corporate unsecured issuance as an investment grade issuer.

第三季尤其令人滿意，其中最突出的是我們作為投資級發行人成功完成了首次企業無擔保債券發行。

We now have access to a much larger investor base in the investment grade market than the high yield market where we had issued our prior 7 offerings over the last 13 years.

現在，我們在投資等級市場擁有比過去 13 年我們發行 7 次債券的高收益市場更大的投資者基礎。

Having access to this larger pool of capital should allow us to further optimize our liability management in the years to come. We believe that by being a regular issuer in the investment grade corporate bond market, we will be able to lower our overall interest expense to a greater extent than what we could expect in the secured repo and high yield markets.

獲得這筆更大的資金，將使我們能夠在未來幾年進一步優化負債管理。我們相信，透過成為投資等級公司債市場的常規發行人，我們將能夠比在擔保回購和高收益債券市場中預期的更大幅度地降低我們的整體利息支出。

We prioritized getting to investment grade ratings several years ago, so having that distinction today from two of the three major rating agencies is very satisfying, and we plan to maintain or improve our ratings over time.

幾年前，我們將獲得投資級評級作為首要任務，因此今天能夠獲得三大評級機構中的兩家的認可，我們感到非常滿意，我們計劃隨著時間的推移保持或提高我們的評級。

While latter has historically been grouped into a peer group of other commercial mortgageees. We believe we are more properly comped against other investment grade rated property res who finance their operations like we do, primarily with the use of corporate unsecured debt and large unsecured revolvers.

雖然後者在歷史上一直被歸類在其他商業抵押貸款人的同級群體中。我們認為，與其他投資等級房地產公司相比，我們更合適的比較對像是那些像我們一樣主要透過公司無擔保債務和大額無擔保循環信貸來為其營運融資的公司。

If we succeed in curating an equity investor base that views us more in line with investment grade property REITs, we think our stock price will start to reflect a lower required dividend yield, more in line with how these investment grade property rates with lower leverage are valued.

如果我們成功培養出一批將我們視為與投資級房地產 REIT 更相符的股權投資者，我們認為我們的股價將開始反映出較低的必要股息收益率，更符合這些槓桿率較低的投資級房地產 REIT 的估值方式。

In the 4th quarter and beyond, we expect to continue adding to our inventory of higher yielding balance sheet loans while staying nimble enough to pivot into securities acquisitions during periods of high volatility when these investments provide extraordinary opportunities to add safer, more liquid investments as market turbulence flares up.

在第四季度及以後，我們預計將繼續增加高收益資產負債表貸款的儲備，同時保持足夠的靈活性，以便在市場波動劇烈時轉向證券收購，因為這些投資提供了在市場動盪加劇時增加更安全、流動性更強的投資的絕佳機會。

We are hopeful that the yield curve will steepen much more next year as the Fed makes good on market predictions of several cuts to the Fed funds rate.

我們希望，隨著聯準會兌現市場對多次降息的預測，明年殖利率曲線將進一步陡峭化。

This in turn should pave the way for more regular contributions to securitizations. We're always on the lookout for opportunities to own more real estate, but we expect most of the lift to earnings next year to come from organic growth of our loan portfolio.

這反過來應該會為更定期地向證券化項目注資鋪平道路。我們一直在尋找擁有更多房地產的機會，但我們預計明年收益成長的大部分將來自貸款組合的自然成長。

We're expecting to finish this transformational year on a positive note, as market conditions do appear to favor our business model as we head into 2026. We can take some questions now.

我們預計，隨著市場狀況在2026年到來之際確實有利於我們的商業模式，我們將以積極的姿態結束這個充滿變革的一年。現在我們可以回答一些問題了。

(Operator instructions)

（操作說明）

Jade Romani with KBW.

Jade Romani 與 KBW。

Thank you very much. I'm interested to know if you're doing anything differently on the origination side from prior to the IG rating, perhaps that has opened you up to deals that are closer to stabilization or perhaps larger in size.

非常感謝。我很想知道，在獲得 IG 評級之後，你們在貸款發放方面是否有任何不同的做法，或許這讓你們有機會接觸到更接近穩定期或規模更大的交易。

Clearly the IG rating might give you a competitive advantage over non-bank lenders, so if you could provide any color on that, it'd be helpful.

顯然，IG評級可能會讓你在與非銀行貸款機構的競爭中佔據優勢，所以如果你能提供一些相關信息，那就太好了。

Sure, thanks.

好的，謝謝。

Yeah, I would say we're looking at some slightly larger transactions and it's just a lot more stability around it, financing it this way. You don't have to go about trying to figure out if an individual lender will, see the assets the same way you do, but I wouldn't call it anything wholesale in different, slightly larger, yes, we, everything is a little bit more profitable when your cost of funds go down. But for the most part, if the one real change that I see in this part of the cycle versus the last time is the assets on which we're lending are of much better quality. Than the apartment buildings and, older warehouse properties. So we seem to, when I take a look at the assets that we're lending on, they're really newly built Class A apartment complexes, resort style almost, and a lot of the industrial portfolios are also quite new as a result of all the onshoring that took place.

是的，我認為我們正在關註一些規模稍大的交易，而且這種融資方式也更加穩定。你不必費心去弄清楚個別貸款人是否會以你同樣的方式看待這些資產，但我不會稱之為批發，只是規模略大一些，是的，當你的資金成本下降時，一切都會變得更有利可圖。但總的來說，如果說我在這個週期階段與上一個階段相比看到的一個真正的變化是，我們放款的資產品質會好得多。比公寓大樓和老舊的倉庫物業更甚。所以，當我查看我們正在放款的資產時，我發現它們實際上是新建的甲級公寓大樓，幾乎是度假村式的，而且由於所有回流到國內的舉措，許多工業資產組合也相當新。

And on the origination side, I noticed a difference between fundings and commitments up front that seemed, at least from the outside, a little larger than than historically. Were there any construction loans in there or any, large CapEx projects in those deals if you could provide any color?

在資金籌集方面，我注意到前期資金和承諾之間的差距，至少從表面上看，似乎比以往更大。這些交易是否涉及任何建築貸款或大型資本支出項目？如果您能提供一些細節信息，請告知。

I wouldn't say as a rule, but we generally don't write construction loans, so there are no construction loans in that portfolio that you're looking at.

我不會說這是慣例，但我們通常不發放建築貸款，所以你看到的那個投資組合裡沒有建築貸款。

And as far as, heavy CapEx work, I think if you're gravitating towards a slightly wider spread than maybe you're expecting, I don't think it's as a result of a higher construction component or a lot of TI hammer swinging.

至於大型資本支出項目，我認為，如果你發現支出範圍比預期的要寬一些，我認為這並非由於施工部分佔比更高或大量使用工具進行施工造成的。

It really is just.

確實如此。

We're just getting a little bit better. I think the portfolio doesn't look like it's changing meaningfully. Right now it's most of the assets are industrial and multi-family. I'm not sure it'll stay that way. And we haven't been avoiding hotels, we put one on their app recently. But we just haven't run across too many of them, and as I said, a lot of the, we TRY to focus more importantly rather than property types is on on acquisitions where the borrower's buying something usually at a reset basis. Some of these resets are quite remarkable, but yeah, as opposed. To cash out refinances. The only real cash out refinances that we're doing is if a guy is coming off a construction loan on an apartment building, and he's, only 50% leased now. So those oftentimes have 30 or 40% equity in them and, sometimes there's a cash out re-FY because the property is now complete and half leased. So other than that it's pretty straight down the middle lending on apartments and industrial properties.

我們情況正在好轉。我認為投資組合看起來並沒有實質的改變。目前，其大部分資產為工業地產和多戶住宅。我不確定情況是否會一直如此。我們並沒有刻意迴避酒店，最近我們還在他們的應用程式上添加了一家酒店。但我們還沒有遇到太多這樣的情況，而且正如我所說，我們嘗試更多地關注收購，而不是房地產類型，借款人通常是以重置價格購買某些東西。有些重置非常顯著，但另一方面，情況恰恰相反。提取再融資款項。我們目前唯一真正進行的套現再融資是這樣的：如果有人償還了公寓大樓的建築貸款，而他現在的出租率只有 50%。因此，這些房產通常有 30% 或 40% 的股權，而且，有時由於房產已竣工並出租了一半，所以會在新的財年獲得現金。除此之外，它在公寓和工業地產貸款方面相當中規中矩。

Thanks a lot.

多謝。

Steve Delaney with Citizens JMP.

史蒂夫·德萊尼 (Steve Delaney) 和 Citizens JMP。

Good morning everyone, and congrats on the strong quarter.

各位早安，祝賀你們本季業績出色。

I'm curious, let's start with lending. You seem to like the market. You have plenty of capacity, but let's talk about just the $1.9 billion rather than the $5 billion overall portfolio focusing on the loan portfolio because if you appear to be increasingly active there. Do you see looking at that portfolio who will look at over the next year. Do you see further growth and you know meaningful growth in that $1.9 billion dollar loan portfolio and can you give us some idea of a range with your current capital base, how large the loan portfolio might might be able to grow?

我很好奇，那我們就從貸款開始吧。你似乎很喜歡這個市場。您擁有充足的能力，但我們只討論這 19 億美元，而不是 50 億美元的整體投資組合，重點關注貸款組合，因為如果您似乎在該領域越來越活躍。您認為未來一年誰會關注這個投資組合？您認為這19億美元的貸款組合會有進一步成長，並且會有實質的成長嗎？您能否根據您目前的資本基礎，大致估算一下貸款組合可能會成長到多大規模？

Thank you.

謝謝。

Sure, thanks, Steve. Let's start with capital first because if you remember in the second half of 2024, we took in over $1 billion in loan payoffs. And while we began originating loans more frequently, we were not originating at that pace. So what was happening is each quarter of the loan book would, get a little bit smaller. This is really the first quarter in a while where we've originated more than has paid off, and we expect that to continue.

好的，謝謝你，史蒂夫。我們先從資金說起，因為如果你還記得的話，在 2024 年下半年，我們收到了超過 10 億美元的貸款償還。雖然我們開始更頻繁地發放貸款，但發放速度並沒有加快。所以，貸款帳簿的每季都會略微縮減一些。這是近段時間以來我們首次投入大於回報，我們預期這種情況還會持續下去。

So the 4th quarter is off to a very good start.

所以第四節比賽開局非常順利。

I would expect, or as I said originally, the organic side of growth will come from just building up the bridge book. I think that's the place where we're focused right now, and we're pretty happy with where spreads are. They're a little bit less competitive than they were really, I would say just a couple of months ago, which tends to happen after you hit the midpoint in a year. But so I I would expect that $1.9 billion portfolio to go up by a billion dollars in all likelihood. Maybe I would if I had to take the over under on that billion, I would take the over. We're quite active right now and business begets business, so I think that one. We had a pretty strong origination quarter that gets noticed by borrowers as well as brokers, and the phone rings a little bit more. As Pamela mentioned, we have over $500 million in loans under application right now.

我預計，或者正如我最初所說，有機成長將來自橋牌業務的不斷累積。我認為這是我們目前關注的重點，我們對目前的價差狀況相當滿意。他們的競爭力比幾個月前有所下降，這種情況通常會在一年中期發生。所以我預計，這19億美元的投資組合很可能會加值10億美元。如果非要我押注那十億的總金額是大於還是小於，我可能會押大於。我們目前非常活躍，而業務成長會帶來更多業務，所以我認為是這樣。我們本季的貸款發放相當不錯，借款人和經紀人都注意到了這一點，電話鈴聲也響得更多了。正如帕梅拉所提到的，我們目前有超過 5 億美元的貸款申請正在審批中。

You never really know how many of these are going to close depending on what happens with the volatility sometimes coming out of, the political picture, as well as the geopolitical side of things, but And generally I would expect, that we, I think we had that loan book up to around $3.4 billion a couple of years ago and I would like to get back there. And I think that'll come from a few places. One, we have a larger revolver that's mostly undrawn. We have a lot of securities. Securities are paying off at a much more rapid clip than loans right now, and I think that's testimony to the payoffs that have been coming in and the capital markets becoming more welcoming to, single asset transactions. So as you pay down those AAA's in a CLO, the financing becomes quite unpopular. So they've been calling a lot of those bonds, and we'll expect that to continue. I think that our securities portfolio will through attrition pay off, but also we will sell them, as we said in the quarter, we sold a little over $250 million.

你永遠無法真正知道這些貸款中有多少會最終成交，這取決於政治局勢和地緣政治方面出現的波動，但總的來說，我預計，幾年前我們的貸款組合規模應該達到 34 億美元左右，我希望能夠恢復到那個水平。我認為這將來自幾個方面。第一，我們有一把較大的左輪手槍，但大部分時間都沒有拔出來。我們有很多證券。目前證券的收益速度比貸款快得多，我認為這證明了收益不斷湧入，資本市場也越來越歡迎單一資產交易。因此，隨著你在 CLO 中償還那些 AAA 級債券，這種融資方式變得相當不受歡迎。所以他們一直在召回很多這類債券，我們預計這種情況還會持續下去。我認為我們的證券投資組合會透過損耗獲得回報，但我們也會出售它們，正如我們在本季度所說，我們出售了略高於 2.5 億美元的證券。

We own, I think we own over $2 billion today. I would expect that number to go down. But I would expect the loan inventory book to go up.

我認為我們目前擁有超過20億美元的資產。我預計這個數字會下降。但我預計貸款存量會增加。

That that's really helpful call Brian thank you in terms of special comparison you mentioned the property rates and their valuation is something that you know you would be envious of, on a whether it's on AP or a or a dividend yield looking at the ROE at 8.3%, I would say it's, it kind of strikes me as being solid but. In terms of evaluation and where the stock is trading relative to book that, some improvement to that maybe in the something in the 9 to 10% range might be, very beneficial to, the stock price, and therefore, your valuation relative to book, is that. Is improving the ROE, but in a prudent manner, is that part of your vision for the next 1 to 2 years? And do you think the strategy you have in place will necessarily take your ROE some higher?

這真的很有幫助，布萊恩，謝謝你。關於你提到的特殊比較，房產利率和估值確實令人羨慕，無論是從年利率還是股息收益率來看，8.3% 的淨資產收益率，我覺得相當穩健。就評估而言，股票相對於帳面價值的交易情況，如果帳面價值能提高 9% 到 10%，那麼對股價以及相對於帳面價值的估值都將非常有利。以謹慎的方式提高淨資產收益率，這是否是您未來 1 到 2 年的願景之一？你認為你目前的策略一定會提高你的淨值報酬率嗎？

Thanks.

謝謝。

I would say yes to all of those parts of that question.

對於這個問題的所有部分，我的答案都是肯定的。

The game plan is to write more loans, and we'll get through the cash component of our liquidity. As you remember, we had a lot of T-bills when T-bills were yielding 5.5%, and that kept us away from very tight mortgage loans, because if it wasn't at the margin worth sacrificing liquidity and safety of the of the securities. We really didn't do it. But now with the Fed cutting rates and promising to cut further, we have a nice mix of floating rate and fixed rate liabilities, so we would expect our cost of funds to be going down. That revolver, I'll remind you, is now priced at Sulfur plus 125. So if I am of the opinion the Fed is going to cut rates 100 basis points, usually probably bridging over Powell's last few stands as well as the next Fed official that comes in. And if that happens, you get so for down around, 3%. We can borrow and secure it 4.25% at that point, so that should all bode well. We've got floors in our bridge loan portfolio up around 6%, 625. And so the loan, the rates we're able to write loans at these days have actually gone up, not down. And in the last quarter anyway, so we're going to continue doing that. And after we get through the cash component of our liquidity, we'll then begin to sell down or pay down the securities.

我們的計劃是發放更多貸款，這樣就能解決流動性中的現金問題。您應該還記得，當時國庫券收益率為 5.5%，我們持有大量國庫券，這使我們避免了發放非常緊縮的抵押貸款，因為如果犧牲證券的流動性和安全性得不償失的話。我們真的沒做。但現在聯準會已經降息並承諾進一步降息，我們擁有浮動利率和固定利率負債的良好組合，因此我們預計資金成本將會下降。我提醒你一下，那把左輪手槍現在的售價是硫磺加 125。所以，如果我認為聯準會將降息 100 個基點，這很可能是在鮑威爾最後幾個立場以及下一位聯準會官員的立場之間取得平衡。如果這種情況發生，你的損失大約會達到 3%。屆時我們可以以 4.25% 的利率借款並獲得擔保，所以一切都應該會很順利。我們的過橋貸款組合中有地板上漲了約 6%，625。因此，我們現在能夠發放貸款的利率實際上是上升了，而不是下降了。而且在最後一個季度，我們也會繼續這樣做。在我們消化完流動資金中的現金部分後，我們將開始減持或償還證券。

And the way it comes out on paper, we're hoping to add 1 to $2 billion of assets and net on the balance sheet, and we're hoping to pick up 3 to 4% of the profit margin. So if we can take a security that we're earning, 5.5% on and get it and pay that loan, pay the security off and then redistribute. A reinvest that money into a loan portfolio that's earning 8.5%, that we think that bodes very well for dividend, ROE, as well as earnings. So it's not a hard ping pong ball to follow. That is going to be what we're we're going to do. It's what we've been saying we're going to do. The one thing that has really masked all the work that we've done has been the very rapid pace of payoffs. And those are high yielding instruments and we hate to see them go, but when they've been around a little bit past their expiration date, you do want them to pay off, and we've been pretty successful at that. So credit is very stable. We like what we're seeing. The quality is good. The borrowers are good. They've been patient. They're not in difficult financial binds as a result of owning too many overlevered properties. So it looks strong and, you got the stock market at all-time highs, you got spreads low, rates low, Fed cutting. These are all good conditions on the weather map for a successful lending business at latter.

從帳面上來看，我們希望增加 10 億至 20 億美元的資產和淨值，並希望獲得 3% 至 4% 的利潤率。所以，如果我們能拿走我們目前收益率為 5.5% 的證券，償還貸款，還清證券債務，然後再進行重新分配。我們將這筆錢再投資於收益率為 8.5% 的貸款組合，我們認為這對股息、淨資產收益率以及收益來說都是非常有利的。所以這並不難理解。這就是我們要做的事情。這就是我們一直以來所說的要做的事。真正掩蓋我們所有工作的，是回報來得太快了。這些都是高收益工具，我們很捨不得它們消失，但當它們過了到期日一段時間後，你肯定希望它們能帶來收益，而我們在這方面也相當成功。所以信貸非常穩定。我們很喜歡我們所看到的。品質很好。借款人素質不錯。他們一直很有耐心。他們並非因為擁有過多高槓桿房產而陷入嚴重的財務困境。所以看起來情勢強勁，股市處於歷史高位，利差低，利率低，聯準會還在降息。從天氣預報來看，這些都是有利於後期貸款業務順利進行的有利條件。

Right, thank you, Brian for all the helpful comments.

好的，謝謝布萊恩提供的所有有益建議。

(Operator instructions)

（操作說明）

Tom Catherwood be TIG.

Tom Catherwood 是 TIG。

Thanks and good morning everyone. Brian, I just wanted to to go back to something that you said in response to Steve's question and I want to make sure I heard it right.

謝謝大家，大家早安。布萊恩，我只是想再確認一下你之前回答史蒂夫的問題時說的話，我想確認一下我是否聽對了。

Did you mention that I thought you said rates we can get on loans have gone up, not down.

你剛才是不是說過，我們能獲得的貸款利率上升了，而不是下降了？

Did I hear that right?

我沒聽錯吧？

The ones we're looking at, yes.

是的，我們正在關注的那些。

I think they're.

我認為他們是。

Well, you're seeing, I mean, I'm not immune to looking at corporate spreads, credit spreads, mortgage spreads, but there's a couple of things going on more recently in the last, literally the last 60 days I would say.

嗯，你看，我的意思是，我也會關注企業利差、信用利差、抵押貸款利差，但最近，確切地說是最近 60 天裡，發生了一些事情。

The Fed is letting the mortgage backed securities portfolio run off. So the agency securities market is actually not as tight as you would think on spread. And the reason why is the Fed is effectively letting $30 billion roll off. I think it's $30 billion. I'm not a Fed watcher, so if I have that wrong, please don't send me a bunch of emails, but The other after April when the tariff talks started and now the back and forths that go on, the commercial sector was as it always does, I've said this to you probably several times in January every year we go to a convention down in Miami called CEFSI. Everyone is a Everyone comes out, it's going to be the best year ever, and they put a carry trade on until the middle of June. Around the middle of June, they think maybe we pay too much for these things and they start to sell them and they're less aggressive. At latter we have found a nice little seam, I think, in loan sizes.

聯準會正在放任抵押貸款支持證券組合過度膨脹。所以，機構證券市場的價差其實並沒有你想像的那麼緊張。原因在於，聯準會其實是讓300億美元的資金白白流失。我認為是300億美元。我不是聯準會的觀察員，所以如果我說錯了，請不要寄一堆郵件給我。但是，自從四月關稅談判開始，以及現在雙方反覆拉鋸之後，商業領域一如既往地活躍。我可能已經跟你說過好幾次了，每年一月我們都會去邁阿密參加一個叫做CEFSI的會議。每個人都出來了，這將是有史以來最好的一年，他們還推出了持續到六月中旬的避險交易。大約在六月中旬，他們認為我們可能為這些東西付了太高的價格，於是開始降價促銷，而且促銷力度也減弱了。我認為，我們在貸款尺寸方面找到了一個很好的平衡。

We traditionally like loans at $25 to $30 million on middle market lenders by choice. However, we've dabbled occasionally in larger loans.

我們通常喜歡向中型市場貸款機構申請 2500 萬至 3000 萬美元的貸款。不過，我們也偶爾會涉足較大額度的貸款。

The banks are not really writing loans in the $100 million dollar range. That's a little too small for them to put on their balance sheet and then TRY to securitize. They'll write a billion dollars dollar loan with a. Of banks, but a $100 million dollar loan is under their radar, and $100 million is probably a little too big for a lot of the CLO issuers that are out there that we mainly compete with. So we're actually very happy in our $50 to $100 million dollar range right now, and we'll TRY to stay there. And so don't think that we've changed our stripes if we start picking up loans that are a little larger than average. We're still doing plenty of smaller loans too. But the $100 million dollar type loan is a better asset. It's newer. It's got better financial characteristics to it, and it is higher rate because the competitive landscape is just not as bad as it was.

銀行其實並沒有發放1億美元等級的貸款。對他們來說，這個規模太小了，不足以列入資產負債表，更別提嘗試進行證券化了。他們將簽署一份價值十億美元的貸款協議。銀行可能會考慮這筆貸款，但 1 億美元的貸款不在他們的考慮範圍之內，而且對於我們主要與之競爭的許多 CLO 發行機構來說，1 億美元可能有點太大了。所以，我們目前對 5,000 萬到 1 億美元的營收水準非常滿意，我們會努力維持在這個水準。所以，如果我們開始承接比平均稍大的貸款，不要以為我們改變了做法。我們也仍然在發放大量小額貸款。但1億美元的貸款是一筆更好的資產。它是新的。它的財務狀況更好，利率也更高，因為競爭環境不像以前那麼糟糕了。

And keep in mind I'm talking about the last 60 to 90 days.

請記住，我指的是最近 60 到 90 天。

The first half of the year was very tight, and we were not originating a lot for that reason. In fact, we were buying a lot of securities. Another good proxy, Tom, if you want to take a look at it, is the CLO market. So there's a lot of CLOs coming to market, and they're they're in the 145, 155, 160 area for AAA's. That's wider than they were just a few months ago. It's not extraordinarily wider. But you're also seeing the VIXs tick up. I think it was around 25 the other day after being at 15 for a month. So, when you see the VIXs ticking up like that and all the volatility around the rhetoric and the political circles, we're able to find things that are pretty attractive. Again, I also think we have a reputation as being very reliable.

今年上半年市場非常緊張，因此我們沒有進行太多原創項目。事實上，我們當時買了大量證券。湯姆，如果你想了解一下，CLO市場也是不錯的選擇。所以現在有很多 CLO 進入市場，它們的 AAA 級價格在 145、155、160 美元左右。這比幾個月前的情況好多了。它並不算特別寬。但你也看到VIX指數在上漲。我記得前幾天大概是 25 左右，之前一個月都是 15。所以，當看到 VIX 指數像這樣飆升，以及圍繞政治圈的各種言論和動盪時，我們就能找到一些非常有吸引力的東西。此外，我認為我們也一直以非常可靠而聞名。

So as we get to the year end here, we tend to do, we always do better in the second half of the year than the 1st year, first half of the year when it comes to production.

所以到了年底，在生產方面，我們往往下半年的表現總是比上半年好。

That has been something that has followed me around through my whole career, and I think it has more to do with seasonality and, what happens as insurance companies, they allocate money into fixed income. Usually by June or July they're fully invested, so even that competitive force kind of backs off a little bit too. So we actually prefer to fatten up going into the end of the year.

這件事一直伴隨著我的整個職業生涯，我認為這更多是與季節性有關，也與保險公司將資金配置到固定收益產品有關。通常到了六月或七月，他們就投入了全部資金，所以即使是這種競爭壓力也會減弱。所以我們其實比較傾向在年底前增肥。

Got it, really appreciate that that answer, Brian. And then if I think about then sources and uses, and again, I know you laid it out before, how you think about funding things, but if the spreads and securities are somewhat widening and the revolvers priced at S+ 125.

明白了，非常感謝你的解答，布萊恩。然後，如果我考慮資金來源和用途，我知道你之前已經闡述過你是如何考慮資金來源的，但是如果利差和證券價格有所擴大，循環信貸價格為 S+ 125。

Wouldn't it make sense to then just put everything on the revolver and then term it out with unsecured once you get to $400 to $500 million and just keep wash rinse repeat that or is, do you think selling down securities along with using the revolver gives some other benefit?

那麼，把所有資金都投入循環信貸額度，然後在達到 4 億到 5 億美元時用無擔保貸款償還，然後不斷重複這個過程，豈不是更合理嗎？或者，你認為出售證券並同時使用循環信貸額度還有其他好處嗎？

Well, I think it, it's almost like we have several companies that latter with the products that we dabble in, but on the floating rate side, I, I'm sorry, on the security side, I mean, if you take a look at the rating agency re, the agency buyers like ANC and Annalee and a couple others, these guys are throwing off dividends of 14, 15%. And they're levered, I don't know, 78 times in many cases. That's way too hot for us on leverage, but with government guaranteed paper with a lot of duration, I think your risk is in the duration side of that. But at where we are, these securities, they're, if we levered them up and easily can, the financing cost is aroundOPR plus 50 on a AAA. If we're buying things at 150, you can figure out that there's a pretty good spread in there. So we can lever those up to about a 15. But it's a lot of leverage and you know the road we're on is not to just, have a low cost of funds so we can lever things up. The game plan is to, focus more and more in the years ahead on secured debt that we extend. But the game, the change that ladder versus before. We were IG, we would normally be thinking about issuing another bond here because we're growing rapidly. We're going to need more capital. We've got sources of ability to get capital, but we might think about that. But if you really think that the Fed is going to cut rates by 75 or 100 basis points, it would not go out and do a bond deal right now because that revolver is going to get down to a low 4% rate. And that's what we think will happen. It doesn't have to happen, but if it does, that's probably the first thing we'll do is draw that. We don't want to draw all of that because that's not what the agencies and investors want to see on the bond side. So, but my guess is we'll probably, I don't think securities were ever meant to be a long-term hold for us. They're kind of a parking spot for us while we're waiting for better opportunities to come by on the loan side, and I think our patience has been rewarded because I think Paul mentioned that our spread on the loans we wrote in the $500 million or so was around 279. I think the spread on what's coming in the 4th quarter is going to be wider than that.

嗯，我認為，我們幾乎有好幾家公司都在涉足我們涉足的產品領域，但在浮動利率方面，抱歉，在證券方面，我的意思是，如果你看看評級機構，像 ANC 和 Annalee 這樣的機構買家以及其他幾家，這些公司正在發放 14%、15% 的股息。而且，我不知道，很多情況下，槓桿次數高達 78 次。這對我們來說槓桿率太高了，但是由於有政府擔保且期限很長，我認為風險在於期限方面。但就我們目前的情況而言，這些證券，如果我們利用槓桿進行融資（而且很容易做到），AAA 級證券的融資成本約為 OPR 加 50。如果我們以 150 的價格購買商品，你就能明白這裡面有相當大的價差。所以我們可以將這些槓桿提高到大約 15 倍。但這樣一來槓桿作用就很大了，你知道，我們走的路不僅僅是降低資金成本，以便我們能夠利用槓桿作用來擴大規模。未來幾年，我們的策略是越來越重視發放有擔保的債務。但是，遊戲規則，以及與之前相比的階梯變化。我們是IG，通常情況下，我們會考慮在這裡發行另一筆債券，因為我們發展迅速。我們需要更多資金。我們有辦法獲得資金，但我們可以考慮一下。但如果你真的認為聯準會會降息 75 或 100 個基點，它現在就不會發行債券，因為循環信貸利率將會降至 4% 的低點。我們認為事情就會這樣發展。這不一定會發生，但如果真的發生了，那我們做的第一件事可能就是把它畫出來。我們不想把所有這些都畫出來，因為這不是監管機構和投資者希望在債券方面看到的。所以，但我猜我們可能…我不認為證券對我們來說原本就應該是長期持有的。它們就像我們的臨時停車場，讓我們在等待更好的貸款機會出現時暫時停放車輛。我認為我們的耐心得到了回報，因為保羅提到，我們發放的 5 億美元左右的貸款利差約為 279。我認為第四季的情況會比這更複雜。

Got it. All right, that makes sense. That's it for me. Thanks everyone.

知道了。好的，這說得通。就這些了。謝謝大家。

Jade Romani with KBW.

Jade Romani 與 KBW。

Thanks. Just curious if you would contemplate launching a securities fund, if you can deliver 15% type returns with leverage, you could put the leverage in the funds, not on latter's balance sheet, and create value for investors looking for that type of return profile.

謝謝。我只是好奇您是否會考慮推出證券基金。如果您能夠利用槓桿實現 15% 左右的回報，您可以將槓桿放在基金中，而不是放在基金的資產負債表上，從而為尋求這種回報的投資者創造價值。

And of course, comparing to residential mortgage securities, commercial has a lot more predictable duration, so you don't have the pre-payment volatility that the agency needs to deal with.

當然，與住宅抵押貸款證券相比，商業抵押貸款的期限更可預測，因此不存在機構需要處理的提前還款波動問題。

Yeah, I mean we've done that before when we first opened, we ran a few, investment portfolio for even some individuals that we knew, because sometimes securities get cheap but most people with the first and last name don't know how to go buy them. And so oftentimes we'll get a call and say, why don't you buy these? So we have an asset that's yielding, as I said, a leverage yield of around, 15%, I think. So that's generally attractive, but it does come with a lot of leverage.

是的，我的意思是，我們以前也做過類似的事情。在我們剛開業的時候，我們甚至為一些我們認識的個人管理過一些投資組合，因為有時證券價格會很便宜，但大多數有名字的人不知道如何購買它們。因此，我們常常會接到電話，問我們為什麼不買這些東西？正如我所說，我們擁有的這項資產的槓桿收益率約為 15%。所以這總體上很有吸引力，但同時也伴隨著很大的槓桿作用。

We've historically looked, we've looked at that. We've looked at stapling on a residential mortgage arm of things because we all understand that business also but haven't done it. And the last thing we've looked at too is possibly spinning off our triple net portfolio. Because we don't get much for that in valuation. So this is going to be 2026 is going to be a year about, really fine tuning, the the columns and what the right cap rate should be on those things. We have an internal manager that has no value apparently. So there there's lots of things we can do now around the edges, but the first step was going to be, becoming an investment grade company, and we still like the, given where we are in the cycle right now, we like the commercial mortgage business better than the residential side. The residential side could get very interesting though, not from a loan sum, but from a standpoint of if there's too much supply due to the absence of the Fed. So it was very attractive, but they, as I said, they do have a lot of duration on them. So we, we're probably, we're agnostic as to holding on to things that yield 15% or selling things that make 1 to 2 points and then recycling the money, and I think that that is an option open to us right now as you saw in the small sales that we did in the in the third quarter.

我們過去一直關注這個問題。我們考慮過將住宅抵押貸款業務併入公司，因為我們都了解這個業務，但我們還沒有這樣做。最後，我們也考慮剝離我們的三淨租賃投資組合。因為這樣估值得不到多少好處。所以 2026 年將是真正微調的一年，屆時我們將確定這些欄位的合理資本化率。我們公司有一位內部經理，但他顯然毫無用處。所以現在我們可以做一些週邊的事情，但第一步是成為一家投資級公司，而且鑑於我們目前所處的周期階段，我們仍然更喜歡商業抵押貸款業務而不是住宅業務。不過，住宅方面可能會變得非常有趣，不是從貸款金額來看，而是從聯準會缺席導致供應過剩的角度來看。所以它非常吸引人，但是，正如我所說，它們的使用壽命確實很長。所以，我們可能對持有收益率為 15% 的資產還是出售收益率為 1% 到 2% 的資產然後回收資金持開放態度，我認為這是我們目前可以考慮的選擇，正如你們在第三季度我們進行的小額銷售中所看到的那樣。

And then the the New York office equity investment you made, how are you feeling about that? Is that a long-term hold? Looks like it was pretty prescient in terms of timing, but could you also remind us the size of that?

那麼，你對在紐約的辦公大樓股權投資感覺如何？這是長期持有嗎？看起來時機把握得相當準確，但您能否也提醒我們一下它的大小？

A sure. Our investment, we're a minority participant in the equity on that, but we may very well get involved in the debt side of that situation later on. But we have a loan from an insurance company for now. But that port, that building 780th Third Avenue, by the way, if anybody cares, is we put in a $13 or $14 million dollar investment at the time the building was about 50% occupied.

當然。我們在這項投資中持有少數股權，但我們以後很可能會參與到該專案的債務方面。但我們目前有保險公司的貸款。但順便提一下，如果有人感興趣的話，我們當時在第三大道 780 號的那個港口大樓投入了 1300 萬或 1400 萬美元，當時該大樓的入住率約為 50%。

I don't know where we are on free rent, but I do believe we've now, the building is leased over 90% in just a short, under a year and a half.

我不知道我們現在免租期到什麼程度了，但我相信我們現在已經免租了，這棟大樓在短短不到一年半的時間裡出租率就超過了 90%。

So we do like that one again. That's a very high-quality building.

所以我們又喜歡上那首歌了。那是一棟品質非常高的建築。

Third Avenue is not known for high-quality buildings, but a lot of the lower quality is becoming residential, and a lot of those poorly occupied office buildings that are becoming residential, those tenants are looking for space. The real we picked up was between JPMorgan and the Citadel, Park Avenue is being, just gobbled up on space, and a lot of those tenants are also moving. So we didn't, we thought we were going to get 3rd Avenue tenants looking for an address. We wound up getting Park Avenue tenants that were being displaced by JPMorgan's expansion. So all going well. I wish we had done more of that.

第三大道並不以高品質建築而聞名，但許多低品質的建築正在被改建成住宅，許多入住率低的辦公大樓也被改建成了住宅，因為那些租戶正在尋找新的空間。我們發現，摩根大通和城堡投資集團之間的公園大道空間正在被迅速蠶食，許多租戶也在搬遷。所以我們沒有這麼做，我們以為我們會找到第三大道上正在尋找辦公地址的租戶。我們最終獲得了那些因摩根大通擴張而被迫搬遷的公園大道租戶。一切順利的話。我希望我們當時能多做一些這樣的事。

And do we like that? We're looking at another situation right now of larger size than the one we did at 783rd Avenue, and we like it.

我們喜歡這樣嗎？我們現在正在考慮另一個比我們在 783 大道遇到的情況規模更大的項目，我們很喜歡這個項目。

These transportation hubs in New York City tend to do.

紐約市的這些交通樞紐往往確實如此。

Better they come out a little bit quicker, especially when, people have concerns around safety on on mass transportation. I think that situation has largely corrected itself with the return of people. Our offices are full, we haven't ordered anybody to be in 5 days a week, but most of them are. So we generally like pockets of of the office market, but we do understand the obsolescence associated with, some of the older ones. So yeah, we like where we are. We're happy to do more of those investments and that that long-term hold is the last part of your questionnaire. I would we're going to hold that for a while, yeah.

他們最好盡快公佈結果，尤其是在人們對公共交通安全感到擔憂的情況下。我認為隨著人員的回歸，這種情況基本上已經得到糾正。我們的辦公室都滿了，我們沒有要求任何人每週要來5天，但大多數人都來了。所以我們通常喜歡辦公大樓市場的某些領域，但我們也了解一些老舊辦公大樓存在的過時問題。是的，我們很喜歡現在的生活狀態。我們很樂意進行更多此類投資，而長期持有正是您問卷的最後一部分。是的，我們會暫時保留這個決定。

Okay, great. Thanks so much.

好的，太好了。非常感謝。

We have no further questions at this time, Mr. Harris, I'd like to turn the floor back over to you for closing comments.

先生，我們目前沒有其他問題了。哈里斯，我想把發言權交還給你，請你做總結發言。

Thanks everybody for listening and those who dial in afterwards and good year 2025. We're in the fourth quarter. The reason I say that now is because we're not going to talk again until after the new year comes and we get through the audited financials. But a lot of this just falling into place the way we largely expected it. The only real surprises were the rapid paydowns that took place in the second half of last year, but we're catching up quickly. We've had an inflection point here in the last quarter where we originated more than paid off, and we think that that is going to be a consistent theme over the next 4 or 5 quarters. So thank you for tuning in and we'll catch up with you after the new year.

感謝大家的收聽，也感謝之後撥入的各位，祝大家2025年新年快樂。我們現在進入第四節。我現在這麼說的原因是，在新年到來、我們完成審計後的財務報表之前，我們不會再談這件事了。但很多事情都如我們所料，朝著正確的方向發展。唯一真正出乎意料的是去年下半年發生的快速還款，但我們正在迅速趕上。上個季度我們迎來了一個轉折點，投入大於回報，我們認為這將成為未來 4 到 5 個季度的持續趨勢。感謝收看，新年後再見。

Ladies and gentlemen, this does conclude today's teleconference. You may disconnect your lines at this time.

女士們、先生們，今天的電話會議到此結束。您可以在此時斷開線路。

Thank you for your participation and have a wonderful day.

感謝您的參與，祝您有美好的一天。