景順投信 (IVZ) 2005 Q3 法說會逐字稿

Welcome to AMVESCAP’s 2005 third quarter results conference call. Today’s conference is being recorded upon request by AMVESCAP. If there are any objections you may disconnect from the call at this time. Callers who access the call during the live transmission will be deemed to have solicited access to the call for the purposes of the U.K. Financial Services and Markets Act regime governing real-time financial promotion.

This call may include statements that constitute forward-looking statements under the United States Securities laws. Forward-looking statements include information concerning possible or assumed future results of our operations, earnings, liquidity, cash flow and capital expenditures, industry or market conditions, assets under management, acquisition activities and the effect of completed acquisitions, debt levels, and the ability to obtain additional financing or make payments on our debt, regulatory developments, demand for and pricing of our products and other aspects of our business or general economic conditions. In addition, when used in this call, words such as believes, expects, anticipates, intends, plans, estimates, projects and future or conditional verbs such as will, may, could, should and would, or any other statement that necessarily depends on future events are intended to identify forward-looking statements.

Forward-looking statements are not guarantees of performance. They involve risks, uncertainties and assumptions. Although we make such statements based on assumptions that we believe to be reasonable, there can be no assurance that actual results will not differ materially from our expectations. We caution investors not to rely unduly on any forward-looking statements. In connection with any forward-looking statements you should carefully consider the areas of risk described in our most recent annual report on Form 20-F, as filed with the United States Securities and Exchange Commission. You may obtain these reports from the SEC's website at www.SEC.gov.

Today's speakers are President and CEO, Martin Flanagan and Executive Vice President, James Robertson. A question and answer session will follow accordingly. At this time I would like to turn the call over to Mr. Flanagan.

Welcome and I thank you for joining us. Good afternoon to those of you listening from London and good morning to those of you that are in the United States. As just mentioned I am joined today by my colleague James Robertson, Executive Vice President and James will highlight the financial results during the quarter. Also with me for the first time is Loren Starr, who joined AMVESCAP earlier this month as the Chief Financial Officer. Many of you may know Loren from his prior work in the industry and as you would imagine we’re very excited to have Lauren join us with his deep experience in the industry and very strong background as a CFO. Loren will be addressing the financial results next February since he’s literally been here just a couple of weeks.

Before turning the presentation over to James for his financial review and then ultimately Q&A, I would like to take a few minutes and address a few general observations I’ve made in the first couple of months that have been at AMVESCAP.

When I spoke to everybody in August I had literally been in the job about a day, day and a half, and as anticipated from that time the last few months have been literally a whirlwind. I visited many of our offices, meeting many of our colleagues around the World, really trying to get a good sense of the organization and the people within it. Right now, the entire firm is actively engaged in really a detailed planning process, focused on 2006. That intends to identify the most promising opportunities to unlock the power within AMVESCAP globally.

In September we had a very productive meeting for the AMVESCAP global partners. Many of you may know there is a leadership group within the organization where we laid some of the groundwork for the future. And speaking of people, I think all of us know, no-one is confused, that this is a people business. Many organizations’ success is dependent on the quality of the people, and I can tell you wherever I’ve traveled throughout the organization I’ve encountered very, very talented professionals that are focused absolutely on the clients and all of us know that’s essential for our long term success.

I have also found that our people are very excited to the move the company forward. Everyone in the organization realizes that much of the uncertainty over the past years is now behind us and we are firmly in control of our destiny, subject of course to the markets. But largely things we can control are now right on our lap. Everybody very much welcomes the challenge and this opportunity, and also, and very importantly, very ready to make the necessary changes within the organization to renew our success.

Speaking of AMVESCAP’s potential, one of the reasons I joined the organization was of my perceived view that AMVESCAP has tremendous potential. In these first few months I have confirmed that initial impression throughout AMVESCAP. It has high quality products, a global scale, very skilled people. I think we are very much capable of reclaiming one of the top positions as the world’s premier global investment management fund.

Also, as I noted the first time I spoke to everybody in August, I am generally very optimistic about the future of the Global Investment Management business. The opportunities in our business I think all of us would agree are fantastic. Importantly, I do think AMVESCAP is well positioned to take advantage of those opportunities. And AMVESCAP being a global investment management firm, focused solely on providing investment management services, has a great strategy. But we all know, within the organization and by many of the people that follow the company, that we must improve our operating model to advance this strategy in a more powerful way. We are in the midst of aligning the Company right now to a game plan that will capture this potential. This will start with what we are calling our 2006 operating plan. We are well into this process. With the deeper understanding of our business we achieve through this review process will be used to create an operating climate that really sets very specific objectives for the Company in defined measures of success for us internally for 2006. This is absolutely top priority with the new organization.

It is intended to identify the most significant opportunities we have as I said, and how to achieve excellence for our clients, improve operating efficiencies, effectiveness and drive the operating profitability throughout the organization and across the organization. We are also focused on gaining short term successes, which will create positive momentum for the organization, but the end game will take some time. I think all of us are very clear about that.

Last week also, for the first time I’m told in the Company’s history, the leaders from our business around the world got together to share their initial plans and thoughts and opportunities and challenges. We also focused on some of the cross functional opportunities within the organization, whether it be products, operations, IT, all of the areas that you would imagine that we would focus on.

The media really represents a major step forward in our effort to drive real transparency and visibility across our business and strategies, opportunities, initiatives, in trying to find ways to operate more as a global investment management firm as opposed to separate individual units within an organization. Many powerful ideas were put on the table that will absolutely improve the company going forward. None of us are confused. There’s a lot of work to do and a lot of ideas came out of the meeting. But importantly there’s absolutely a sense of urgency that has been created throughout the organization which is very, very important.

I think for all of us, today, I think it’s important to understand what the major themes are that we are focused on that will really guide us going forward and that you should look to.

First and foremost, we are an investment management organization. We all agree that to be a premier global investment management firm we must have strong, consistent, good, long term investment performance, and, importantly, we must maintain the discipline around our investment processes and styles. I can tell you, as an organization, we are absolutely committed to the success of our investment management team.

Secondly, we must break down any organizational barriers that have prevented AMVESCAP from fully capturing the benefit of being a global investment management firm. I feel confident that we can do that.

Thirdly, it is essential that we simplify our operating environment and increase our ability to bring what we are calling the best of AMVESCAP to any location throughout the global organization. That also is an area that I feel very confident about and offers great potential for the organization.

As an organization we are very committed internally to focus on transparency, execution and accountability throughout the organization and also operate with a sense of urgency. It is clear that we have many opportunities, probably too many opportunities. We are working to determine those opportunities that will offer the greatest impact to the organization and we will focus our resources and energies on those. We can only achieve our excellence by executing sharply against these clear priorities and we will do this.

So in summary, I am very optimistic about the long term future of AMVESCAP. There is an awful lot of work to do in the short term, but the path is becoming much more clear for us as an organization and the organization is committed to renewed success. There is little question we will improve our business in the short term, but to reach the level of excellence that you would expect from us and we expect from ourselves as an organization will take some time.

With that, I’m going to pass over to James and then we’ll get to the Q&A.

Thank you very much Martin. Good afternoon and good morning. Let me start by just mentioning a few items as background before we go through the slides. First of all I’ll remind you that these results are issued under IFRS and the press release includes a reconciliation of UK GAAP to IFRS for the 2004 nine months and full year. Following that, we have changed the presentation of the exceptional item that was booked in the prior year third quarter. We now separate out the charge that related to the SEC settlement and then include in operating expenses the other one-off items at that time which was primarily in relation to shutting down some property and the cost related to those lease payments in London at the time. So these are now reclassified as operating expenses and then we have separated out the item relating to the US regulatory investigation.

Also, I would like to mention that we have put out a lot of information explaining the fact that we will be changing our functional reporting currencies from pounds sterling to US dollars. This change, once approved, will begin with our 2005 fourth quarter earnings release and then our 2005 annual report will be completed in US dollars.

Turning to the market environment, for the first nine months of the year markets have been mixed in the US. The S&P and the DOW down a little. S&P up. Slightly down and the NASDAQ down a little and some good market gains elsewhere in the world. The third quarter saw some good market gains and so far in the fourth quarter we’ve seen markets weaken a little from there.

Foreign exchange rates still have some impact on our financial statement. However, the rates are now fairly consistent between 2005 and 2004. And in the first nine months in 2005 the average rate was 1.84 compared to 1.82 in 2004, so that will not have much meaningful impact in explaining the results.

Turning to the results and moving to Slide 4. As I mentioned in the previous quarter we expected to be booking some one-off items in this quarter and we have done so. But let me explain a little bit of an overview of these items. I will mention where they arise as we go through the slides.

Firstly, in July, we closed on the sale of our AMVESCAP retirement administration business in the US and realized a gain of £18.7m. But as I mentioned before, and as expected, this gain was more than offset by some one-off costs that related to three areas.

First of all, we had an increased write-off of property and fixed asset costs in the UK coming out of the ongoing reorganization and efficiency drive going on in that part of our business. We ended up reducing properties more than we had first of all expected.

Then, secondly, we had costs coming out of our German operation reorganization, which I have mentioned to you previously comes out of part of the de-banking exercise related to the EU consolidated supervision issues. And then thirdly, we have costs related to executive recruitment.

The net of all these items is a net expense of around £3.5m or a decrease on our earnings per share of about £0.03. And as I said I’ll mention the impact of these as they arise as we go through.

So looking at the numbers on Slide 4, you can see the change of presentation where we separate out as a single line the US regulatory settlement for ’04. Revenue’s up slightly from the prior year and then, looking at the expenses, you can see the £20m increase, more or less, which relates to the items I have mentioned which is the lease provision of fixed assets in the UK. The German bank and the executive recruitment costs account for nearly all of that change. You can see the gain from sale of retirement in other income which is partially offset by the fixed assets and disposals and loss on fixed assets in the UK.

Turning to the next slide, this shows the quarterly comparison between third quarter ’05 and third quarter ’04. Revenues are up around 7.7%. These increases primarily due to increased revenue in Canada, UK and real estate, offset by a lower revenue contribution from of course the retirement business which is in for the nine months in the previous year and six and a half months in the current year.

Turning to the next slide, this just gives you a picture of third quarter of ’05 versus third quarter in ’04. Just to give you information first as a comparison between the two. I would note that headcount shows as 756 reduction. 395 of this reduction is as a result of the sale of the retirement admin business and the rest results from across the business from various efficiency programs. Average assets under management have increased by 3.9% from the prior year, primarily due to strong markets in the third quarter.

Turning to Slide 7, this shows the comparison of third quarter ’05 versus the second quarter ’05. You can see the revenue increase related to the markets coming through. Of course there was also the adjustment for, as I mentioned, only having half a month of the retirement business versus three months in the previous quarter. Operating expenses, the movement again is the same one-off items I have mentioned to you, and you can see that by the time you get to EBITDA, you see the other income effect coming in on the sale of ARI.

Turning to the next slide, this just gives you a breakdown of the nine months comparison segmentally. This is really provided for informational purposes. But if I can turn to the next slide, Slide 9, this compares quarter three to quarter two.

In the UK you can see the effect of the fixed asset and lease write-off coming through in the change of about £8.5m. About £7.5m of that change is accounted for by that lease item that I mentioned. Most of the other change is the fact that, as I mentioned in the previous quarter, there were some performance fees that came through in quarter two which did not repeat in quarter three. The other one of course which shows a major change is the corporate expense item, which is where the executive recruitment costs have been booked, which accounts for the change in that area.

Turning to Slide 10. Funds under management, this shows you the funds under management year to date. Long term assets are about level with the beginning of the year. Money market assets are down about £1.3b and then the net of market movement, which has been positive and the outflows. You can see the effect of that plus the foreign exchange.

Turning to the next Slide, 11, looking at what happened in the quarter on funds under management. You can see that overall, funds in the quarter went up £7.3b for the quarter. This is mainly due to market movement. Looking at the outflows, as we foreshadowed that quarter two and quarter three we were expecting outflows coming out of US core growth discipline in the US institutional business and out of the US retail business. The process of moving our assets out of one of our core growth disciplines into another is now complete, as we expected it to be in the third quarter, and the outflow reflects the completion of that movement.

Having a quick review of our performance and our products, we continue to take products out across our distribution and put more and more emphasis on trying to leverage our distribution platform. An example again is the real estate group, they’ve been working hard into getting into Japan, and they have secured a double real estate securities portfolio coming out of that area with a major client. Real estate continues to have very strong performance both on the direct and on the risk side. Our fixed income performance is over 90%, beating that benchmark. Structural products over 90%, beating the benchmark. International value discipline has a strong long term record. Shorter term has been underperforming benchmarks in the short period.

Money markets still excellent across the range. Stable values still the premier stable value provider. But really the most important area to look at is on the mutual fund side and the U.S mutual funds.

Looking at that side, we now have 65% of our assets above average in the top two quartiles over one year, which is up considerably from the previous quarter, about 53% in the top two quartiles over three years and 37% over five years. And you can begin to see in those statistics the passage through the years of the 2001 bad performance and then working its way out across the one, the two then out through the three and then eventually will work its way out through the five year number.

In the UK, performance continues strong with 70% of our assets over one year and over 90% over three and five years, beating competitors and at a strong long term performance in the shorter term, as I mentioned, last quarter performance has been underperforming its competitors, primarily due to a lower weighting in the energy sector at a time when there has been an energy bubble or boom appearing in the latest stock market. And that accounts for about 27% of the [inaudible].

The pipeline of RSP’s that we are seeing in our US Institutional business is increasing nicely. We’re seeing about 40% more RSP (Request For Proposals) over the previous year and our win ratio has begun to increase. Seen good flows into our offshore funds. Some of those flows at the moment are being offset by some consequences coming out of our German reorganization with some outflows flowing from that reorganization. In the UK performance and flows as I said remain strong.

Next page, Slide 12, the balance sheet. Of course this is prevented under IFRS. You will see, as I’ve mentioned, movements in goodwill due to the fact that under IFRS goodwill is booked in its local currency so you get an exchange rate variation. You will see a reasonably large balance reclassified for our UK DC policyholder asset from debtors to current investments as part of the IFRS transition. As at 30 September these assets were £595.4m and there is an offset linked to the policyholder liabilities included in creditors.

Turning to cash flow, this shows you cash flow for the nine months. The amounts in other assets and liabilities include payments as a result of exceptional items and the dispositions and acquisitions line reflects the sale of the AMVESCAP administration division. Partially offset by an increased interest we’ve taken in our China joint venture, which I mentioned last time, and the acquisition of [Steinrow].

Turning to page 14, Slide 14. As you can see the credit facility balance is standing at zero and we paid off the remaining senior notes that were due in early 2005 of about £79.5m. In total we have paid down about £231m of borrowing so far. In sterling terms you’ll see that that decrease in debt shows as £70.7m. This is due to the change in exchange rates and the fact that our debt is denominated in US dollars. In sterling terms we’ve paid down £126.9m offset by an asset impact of £56.2m.

The final slide is just for your information showing average shares outstanding. So that completes going through the slides on our financials and with that I would like to pass back over to Martin.

We’re just stop now for any questions anybody might have.

Thank you. As this time we would like to begin the question and answer session of the conference. [OPERATOR INSTRUCTIONS]. The first question comes from Ken Worthington with CIBC. You may ask your question.

Hi, good morning. First on the extra cost this quarter from the UK write down, the German write down, what kind of savings should we expect in the future from these write downs this quarter?

In this quarter you wouldn’t have got any savings out of that.

I understand, but in future quarters what kind of savings should we expect from the write downs you’ve taken this quarter?

I think probably the only real effect that we had is on reduction in the ongoing rental costs in the UK. The German reorganization costs are part of the de-banking process which I think will not have an ongoing effect. And, of course, executive recruitment is a one-off effect.

Okay. Are you able to quantify the occupancy savings?

It would be somewhere between £0.5m and £1m.

Okay. Great, thank you. Turning to Canada, operating profit increased significantly during the quarter, can you take us through a little through what is happening there with redemption fees, is it mostly currency? Can you give us a little flavor?

There were strong markets in Canada in the third quarter which I think would have flowed through quite nicely there. There was also an adjustment for an insurance recovery.

Okay. How much was that insurance recovery this quarter?

At a movement between the two quarters that accounted for about $400m.

Okay. And then Marty, if you could flesh out some more of the details of your strategy. Margins have been hovering around 24.5%. Can you give us some more ideas on what your plans are to improve margins, and maybe how quickly you think you can implement changes at the various subsidiaries at Amvescap?

Ken, as I mentioned earlier, right now we’re literally largely [digesting] the whole business globally. And we have a very, very broad participation in the process of doing that and a part of that is educational for the whole group to see what’s possible. So, the next quarter you will have some more specifics of where we going to go. But what I will say is it’s just a couple of months right now and there is an awful lot of opportunity for this organization to -– first of all if you look at the depth and breadth of the investment management talent, the types of money they manage there, there is an opportunity to take that more broadly throughout the organization both retail and institutionally. I’m very sure about that.

The issue I’m at is its one thing to make it available it’s another thing to have people interested in so that would be sort of timing issue. But that is one major thing that we are looking at.

Underneath that you start to look at as a Global Investment Management firm, where can you get operational leverage within the Group. And when you start to look at the business prophecies, historically when the organization’s business model was very success for a period of time when everything was always going forward, the world changed and so has this business. And one of the focuses is very much on looking at a better way to drive operational efficiencies and effectiveness through the operating platform. I feel very confident that we will be able to do that.

Now, the next question that you have, and everybody else, is a timing issue on when can you start to see improvements. We’re very, very focused on doing things such as quick wins, quick hits, get some positive momentum which will, in my mind, we’ve already made a couple of changes. For example, such as the United States, on the distribution side to clarify the institutional focus and also several account management focus within the different channels here. We’ll make decisions as we see them. But that said I think you will see a pace where each quarter as we get more deeply into executing against those plans the business will be improved.

The things that will take longer are broader sweeping then you would expect outside of what I previously mentioned, making mandates available around the world, that will be a client driven decision ultimately for their success, but as we look at the operating platform things will be achieved very quickly. Some things will be achieved very quickly, some thins will take 6, 12, 18 months, but you will see operational improving within this organization.

The next question comes from Mr. Huw van Steenis with Morgan Stanley. You may ask your question.

Yes, good morning. Two small ones and one big one. First on the institutional side, could you share with us how much of the net outflows were core and growth in the quarter? So would it be fair to say that more £2b of the outflows were the net redemptions from core growth and underline you are actually now seeing inflows?

Actually, the outflows net of VAT were about flat, Huw. They were about £2b.

Perfect, again very helpful. Second, on a prior call you mentioned the 12B1 fees were going to be reduced and I just wondered if that’s now fully reflected in the numbers or whether there’s more of that to come in the future.

I think the full effect of that was in the third quarter.

Brilliant, thank you. And lastly, probably for Marty, just, I appreciate you do not want to have specifics on strategy until next quarter, but if you look at the U.S. retail it’s been stuck stubbornly in redemption for about four years now. Are there any particular products or areas in general that you are very excited about, either strengths that you’ve come across around the Group or products which maybe Amvescap doesn’t necessarily have today which you think these areas really excite me, things that we can really capitalize on. Are there any sort of high points that would maybe help us think about during the next couple of year’s journey?

Yes, sure. Let me first hit on as James pointed out we’re at a very macro level, the good news if you look at the United States, the retail performance is improving. Now that is always a prelude to net flows. The timing of it is such that I don’t think, my point of view is, none of us should get excited until it happens, otherwise we’ll be disappointed. But, that is a prelude to success.

Now, this gets to the notion of investors in Amvescap. There is not a dearth of talent nor is there dearth of very interesting investigation mandates which are products looking for an institutional client or a high network client or retail client. The upside surprise to me, a couple of them just on the investment side is outside of good uses of what I think is a very good investment team. But the depth and breadth of the Global Fixed Income team is really pretty fantastic, in my mind also the secret. We don’t want it to be a secret and that is one area we will look to broaden its availability.

The other area is the Structured Equity Group within the organization that has a standing long term performance record. And that to me was a very, very, interesting and positive element. If you go to parts of Asia, you look at the track record of some of the Japanese sponsors, very, very, strong. So, I could go on and on. There is literally some real strong investment skills and the element that we want to focus on is to try and get those made available in the markets where people are interested in them and not be limited in our mind to the location where in fact they’re managed.

Yes. Okay, Thank you very much, sir.

The next question comes from Chantal Moshal with Deutsche Bank. You may ask your question.

Sorry James, hi, a question for you. On the restructuring costs in respect of the European and U.K. businesses are they essentially all booked in Q3 or will there be any carry over into Q4 numbers?

You’re referring to reorganization in Europe and the UK?

Yes, the German reorganization you referred to and in the UK the lease and successes.

We haven’t finished in terms of trying to reap more efficiencies from there. There’s still more to go in Europe. As to what can of costs that might come out of that that still too early to determine but the process it is still ongoing as far as continuing to restructure for greater efficiency.

Is that relevant to UK as well or only Europe?

It’s a single Europe including the UK platform. So it will have effect either side of the channel.

All right, because I recall on the Q2 conference call in respect of operating margins in Amvescap UK you indicated a little around 20% was a sort of sustainable level.

Yes.

All right, thanks James.

The next question comes from Philip Milton with Merrill Lynch. You may ask your question.

Hi, thanks very much, just a couple of questions. First one is make clear to those who are not that good on accounting. Am I correct in thinking that there’s about £20m that will come off the operating expenses for Q3 ‘05 if you treated restructuring costs as exceptionals, so you’re actually looking at a reasonable drop compared to Q2.

And second, I just wondered whether from what Marty was saying, the shorter term wins are more likely on the cost line and the longer term will be on the revenue line, was that his perspective or not?

Firstly, weak accounting or not, Philip, your mathematics is reasonably correct. There were items amounting to just short of £20m that were one-off in nature in this quarter.

Sorry, I forgot to ask, what were performance figures like in this quarter?

They weren’t any of the larger.

Thanks.

Phil, Just your point. I think you’re hitting the right kind of realistic point of view. I think the reality is it’s easier to costs out of the short term than it is to clients -– to have clients decide to invest with you. So what is more controllable is our facility to focus on cost and we are doing that but I don’t want -– I want to get across another very important point.

The focus is to aligning the organization to take advantage of Amvescap and you can’t cost save yourself into success. You have to align the organization with success the talents and products we have and I feel very confident we have a lot of that. Really [indiscernible] we don’t have too few opportunities, we actually have many. So which of them can we still be successful at most quickly, and those are the exercises that we’re going through.

Okay, thanks very much.

The last question comes from Bruce Hamilton with Morgan Stanley. You may ask your question.

Hi guys, good morning. Just a couple of questions. Firstly looking at the UK division, the revenue margin looks substantially lower in Q3 then Q2. I just wondered if anything funny is going on there or if that’s a seasonal impact? The business impacted last year as well but not the year before.

Point two, wonder if we could get a bit more color on the £1.8b inflow into the UK division? And finally on other income, if I back out the £18m exceptional gain you had a loss of £4m, why would that be a £4m loss in other income because that’s normally a positive number?

Okay, shows a £4m loss in the UK. Let’s start with the last one because it’s easiest. I think I mentioned there was some fixed asset write-offs associated with the UK reorganization which net off the sale on the disposal -– the gain on disposal of Amvescap Retirement Admin and that is the £4m.

Sorry, but if I take out £18m you’ve got a minus £4m number. So that means the other income was negative before the gain on disposal.

Because we had a loss on disposal of fixed assets associated with the UK property reorganization.

Got it.

We’ll take one last question and that question if from Jason Street with UBS. You may ask your question.

Do you want to carry on and answer the last one and I will ask mine.

On the flow side, Bruce, the performance remains very strong in the U.K. and we are seeing a lot of strong interest in the intermediary market and strong interest from the institutional market as well and so, we feel very good about how that business is progressing.

At the same time, what we’re also seeing is a good pick up in demand on the offshore fund range which is beginning to see some very nice inflows happening in that range which are reflected in the UK numbers because of them being UK and Dublin, which is where the offshore funds are registered.

Then in terms of the movement on profitability I think I mentioned, of course, we reflected as a straight through operating expenses the adjustment on the lease went through this quarter and at the same time the previous quarter had a significant performance fee.

I’ll say thank you on his behalf. Couple of things. Just on the performance data you give on the AIM funds that isn’t including the money market funds is it? That’s the AIM Equity and Bond funds.

This is only long term funds. The money market funds are 99.7 of our assets. But they are not in the numbers we discussed [inaudible].

Can you just –- sorry, because I couldn’t write them down fast enough, could you just give those numbers again, for the long term funds at 1 year, 3 year, and 5 year above half way was?

65% 1 year, 53% 3 year, 37% 5 years.

Thanks very much. I want to make a comment rather than a question which is, I personally think its very unhelpful to put out a statement that is so short on comment has a number in it that is £18m negative. No comment about that, no comment about the offsetting positives or visa versa –- I got it the wrong way round the £18m positive and the offsetting £21m negative. It’s just very, very unhelpful for people trying to understand what the underlying numbers mean, and when there’s a two and half hour gap between them coming out and this call. I may be a lone voice on that but I don’t think so.

I appreciate the comment.

Thank you.

We’d just like to thank everybody for participating and appreciate your questions and hopefully we answered your questions sufficiently and look forward to speaking with everybody at the next quarter. Thank you very much. Have a good day.