ING Groep NV (ING) 2021 Q1 法說會逐字稿

Welcome, and thank you for joining the ING's First Quarter 2021 Media Call. I'm happy to give the floor to CEO of ING, Steven van Rijswijk. Please go ahead, sir.

Thank you very much, operator, and welcome, and thank you all for joining us on the call. Here in the room with me are Tanate Phutrakul, our CFO; and Ljiljana Cortan; our COO. We will give you an update on developments and our results for the first quarter of 2021.

In the first quarter, our customers and colleagues were still affected by the COVID-19 pandemic and the continued lockdowns. And luckily, we see vaccination programs picking up speed. If you look at customer behavior, we saw continued inflow of savings and deposits, some EUR 8 billion this quarter, as customers are still reluctant to spend and are limited to do so because of the ongoing lockdowns.

And at the same time, in the low interest rate environment, many customers have turned to investing as an alternative for saving, which first resulted in growth in investment products, particularly in Germany and in Belgium. And to give you some color on that, over the whole of 2020, we saw an increase of about 700,000 investment accounts. But in the first quarter of this year, we saw already a growth of 250,000 accounts, so that's growing rapidly.

On the lending side, we also saw growth as we were able to apply the ECB TLTRO funding to support the economy, and this resulted in a net growth of our core lending of EUR 17.8 billion. The pricing benefit we got from the TLTRO program helped keep our interest income this quarter, offsetting the continuing margin pressure in the ultra-low rate environment.

In this quarter, we also continued to adapt our business to better serve customers and to ensure that we're focusing on the best growth opportunities for the future. 90%, 9-0-percent, of interactions of retail customers with us are now through the mobile and 43% of our customers only deal with us through that mobile. Both numbers are still growing. And in response to this rise and use digital channels, we announced a further change in our Dutch retail organization, reducing the number of branches, which will be converted to the ING house format and increasing the number of digital service points.

We also announced that we'll discontinue retail banking activities in Austria and the Czech Republic in order to focus on markets where we can achieve better scale and profitability. We announced similar measures for a number of wholesale banking countries in November. And financially, our performance in the quarter was strong. As said, our interest income was up on the previous quarter, supported by the benefit from TLTRO. Fee income showed a robust growth of 9% year-on-year, especially in investment products.

Our expenses remain under control, but included some incidental costs due to the restructurings that I just described. And risk costs, they were at a low-level as the macroeconomic models triggered the release of provisions, which were offset by management overlay to reflect the delayed credit losses that we expect to -- due to the pandemic. And overall, this led to a pretax result of almost EUR 1.5 billion and a net result of just over EUR 1 billion, with a capital ratio remaining at a strong 15.5%.

With that, we are happy to take your questions now.

(Operator Instructions)

First question is from (inaudible) from (inaudible).

I had some questions about the -- first, loan growth in February and March, especially in the Midland. Can you give some more detail on what went on there? How did we close those deals? How scarce was the competition? And what kind of companies could ING Groep deals with? And what was the effect on margin pressure in those months.

Right. Thank you, Eva. The loan growth came predominantly from larger clients, both in the Netherlands, but also in countries like Germany and France and elsewhere in Europe. That was at least a TLTRO eligible loan growth. Most of that was with what we call investment-grade companies, so BBB or higher. So 90% of the loan growth came from these type of companies. Yes, and we typically price these loans that are in line with the credit standing of these companies, and that's what we also did now.

And clearly, when 2020 ended and 2021 started, increasingly, companies are looking at making investments again. And given the fact that we have been in touch with them already since the start of the crisis that's also help them and help us to actually discuss potential financing for them in a wake of potential future investments, and that's what we were able to do.

So you actively approached them if they were interested in taking those loans?

Yes. I mean, typically, we always contact our clients or we work with our clients to see what our needs are. We make presentations to them to see what the capital are given their investment plans. Sometimes transform diverse when there is a particular investment need, so it comes from both sides.

Okay.And can you tell us more about how you should train to competition because you had to meet the 0 threshold to cause it to benefit other banks. That's the same issue. So I must assume that it must was really busy on the market for financing those companies in the last months?

Yes. I don't know about it. I mean, to be honest, I haven't really looked at whether other banks -- what other banks exactly did in terms of their financing. I mean, yes, we have a very large franchise. And that also means that we have a lot of client contacts. By the way, we had to fine contacts already on a weekly basis since March 2020 when the corona pandemic started, also to see how our clients were doing and how we could help them.

So we are in regular contact with them already on a weekly or biweekly basis. So I'm sure that, especially with large companies, they're also in conversations with other banks. But that's something that you would need to ask the other banks how they felt.

Okay. Last question on this topic.

Sorry. Eva, can you speak up a little bit? Your voice is faint.

Okay. Sorry. Last question on this topic. Because that is mostly large companies, can you say something about the sectors where you see demand picking up?

Yes, that was very broad. So it was -- I cannot point at a particular sector in which we extended those loans. Outside of TLTRO, if you look at the broader business side and the larger companies, then we got more loan growth in Asia and the Americas because already, their production volumes increased. In China, for example, it picked up already in third quarter 2020. In the U.S., you see also an increase in GDP as of earlier this year, also with the Biden administration coming in and the support that they gave. But if you look at TLTRO, I cannot point -- pick the sector on which this happened.

Next question is from (inaudible) from (inaudible).

And I'm glad I wasn't the first one asking a question because we were affected. And I looked out expected phase, Steven. My question was about growing investment projects, you said it's mostly Germany and Belgium. Could you say if that is specifically because of the low interest rate that people would take into account started to invest? And can you also share some light about the situation in the Netherlands where you see that movement as well?

Yes. Thank you. Yes. I mean, clearly, it will likely be the case that more people start to invest with the low interest rate environment. I think it's good that people build up a buffer. They can do that through savings, but people also look at the returns that they are making. So that means that they may also well look at investments. For us, I think that we did develop our offerings great over the years.

We come from an environment whereby we have in a number of markets. We have a limited number of products, and we increased them over time, including an investment app that we launched also in Germany last year, and that's -- then we also rolled out in other markets, and that helped in a digital manner for people also to make their investments through that app. In the Netherlands, I mean, what we at least see is that people are -- our retail clients compared to other countries are a bit less prone to make investments.

Also, here, we saw an increase in the number of investment cards opened. Last year, we opened in the Netherlands, so 40,000 cards. So this year, the first quarter was 16,000. But it is more benign than in a number of other countries in which we are active.

Okay. There's also some other questions. If you look at the credit losses or the loan provisions, you see, of course, it's less than it was a year ago. Only a negative loan position in the Netherlands good out as the consumer bank. Would you say that Dutch consumers are more or less okay at this moment? And how is that in other countries? And can you say also something about situation you see at the Wholesale Banking.

I will pass that question on to Ljiljana, if that's okay?

That's okay.

Yes, we have seen lower provisions in first quarter, as you noticed. And yes, we see a quite confident situation as well in the Netherlands as in the rest of the world. There were no significant individual cases, neither in Wholesale Banking nor collective provisioning in Netherlands. So we feel confident about the quality of that.

Right. Is it, I mean, you have to take these patients in advance? So these are your expectations you see for the coming quarters?

Based on IFRS, you take the provisions on realistic expectations, it is true that we have taken certain management overlays reflecting uncertainties that are still ahead of us.

Okay. And I say you had good confidence in Netherlands and the rest of the world, the expectation is crisis would be over at the end of the summer.

That's a very difficult question, and I think this is the crisis we haven't seen before, neither in the depth or in the shape. We do expect that the second half of the year probably will bring some hiccups in some hard hit industry, but we do consider us being prepared to take those and in line with our guidance.

Next question is from Mr. (inaudible) from (inaudible)

I have two questions. The first is about TLTRO. My question is, would you say that ING lend more money companies because of this cheap funding, or is it about the same because demand is independent of this, and it's just cheaper funding?

Sorry, did you have more questions, or was this it (inaudible)?

I can ask this other question right away also. But it's about the negative interest rates. I was wondering, what is your opinion about these proposals of, for example, the consumer bond some competitions, to prohibit negative interest rates, and then they also pointed to Belgium as an example? That's the other question.

Okay. Yes on the first one, TLTRO, I think it's a mixed bag. So on the one hand, it's an increase in investments that companies are starting to make. And if you're a larger company, then these amounts gets big, quite quick. And also, it's a matter of at least cheaper funding costs, at least for part of our lending book based on the TLTRO benefit that we have been receiving from the ECB. So it is a combination.

Talking about negative interest rates. Yes. I mean, I think what we see is that interest rates are very low across the globe and in Europe or the Eurozone, they are negative. And that does have an impact on the business model of banks such as ING. And it also means that we take various actions, and to also lower the interest rate for the savers and in some cases, we charge negative interest rates. And in the end, every service requires a price.

If the client is buying (inaudible) or rents to put his or her money and that also costs money. And we also make costs to be able to -- for our clients to enable to get our money safety and security. Now that's why we are having charged negative interest rates for savings or deposits over certain amounts in various countries, and the cases are different for each country, depending on the market circumstances.

In the Netherlands, currently, there is a sort of a border at EUR 100,000. I think that the Minister said -- Minister of Finance said that he would find it and wanted, I believe, if the ordinary depositor or save will be confronted with levying net of interest over the savings amounts. We do understand that, and we also understand that clients require a buffer for unexpected costs or expenses that clients would need to make.

And then the question is, okay, what is an ordinary depositor or ordinary saver? And if you look at figures from the CBS, or also the new bids, then these points at average amounts that are below EUR 100,000. But for us -- and having said that, in the Netherlands, we have indicated and we have announced that as per the first of July, we charge negative interest rates over an amount of EUR 100,000, and that actually means that close to 89% of our clients will not be touched by that.

The question about prohibiting this bylaw because I'm also asking this because ING is the dominant player in both the Netherlands and Belgium, so you have experiences with both ways, actually.

In Belgium, by the way, that depends on the type of account because also there, we charge negative interest rates over EUR 250,000. So it's not the case that it is prohibited. Overall, it is prohibited on specific particular accounts. Look, like I said, I think that in the end, and it goes for all types of businesses, not banks only.

If you need to provide a service for a negative interest rate or a negative margin over the longer term, that's unsustainable. But we clearly take in mind the buffers that people need to hold to save. And then the question is what a normal buffer should be. And for now, we have said that we stick to the EUR 100,000.

Yes. So would you say that if -- because you're telling that it just got money for big, so if they can't compensate that through negative interest rates, it would have to be compensated through, for example, fees for having a banking account.

Well, what we do see is that we, as a bank, are relatively dependent on interest rates, over 3/4 of our revenue comes from interest rate-related products. And it does mean that we need to diversify our business models to also provide other services, which we can ask for commissions beyond the interest rate products that we provide to our clients, and that's what we're doing. We're broadening our service broadening our service scope, and that has also led, in our case, doing increasing fees, amongst others, due to the increased amount of investment products.

(Operator Instructions)

Our next question is from Mr. Ruben De Saegher from (inaudible).

A follow-up question on the last. As you said, that 89% of your customers in the Netherlands is being affected by the negative interest rate, you would say. In what way does that 2%? Could you share some light on that?

Yes. I mean this conversation has focused on the -- our retail clients, so private individuals, but we also do charge negative interest rates to our larger clients. For example, in Wholesale Banking, we have been doing that already for a longer period of time, and that's more substantive.

Okay. I mean one way does that eases the pain over the last period?

It doesn't. So -- no, it doesn't. So -- and that's well understood. So we have a role to play, of course, with our clients, and that's why we're careful with our retail clients. But we have over EUR 400 billion in deposits. The interest that we pay on that is approximately EUR 1.5 billion. And the measures that we've taken in all countries, what we announced for our retail clients, would amount to EUR 200 million in this year. So that's why you see pressure on the net interest income for banks all across the board.

Okay. You take measures in cutting down costs, left some countries with the retail bank, where growth is difficult. I saw in the investment presentation on a slide the amount of offices, which went from 383 in 2016 to 290 in 2020. Does that help? And do you expect that this is it for the coming years, or in the way the digital banking grows and growth during lockdowns, you would expect that onshore amount time, there will be more to do?

Yes. I think that when you make a reference to the presentation, you point at the slide on Poland, where we decreased over the past 4 years, our branches with approximately 25% to 289.

That was Poland? Okay.

Yes, that was in Poland. Now, in the Netherlands, I believe we go from 128 to 59 by July 2022. Yes. And in the end, it depends on the customer behavior. So we do see change in customer behavior. That's, of course, also accelerated by COVID. If we look at the number of clients that use our mobile-only service, that was 40% end of last year and now within one quarter has already grown to 43. If you look at the total number of interactions, the last year, end of year 87 is now already 90. So you see how quickly this goes. And that means that we are adjusting also our service to the needs of our clients.

Therefore, you do see a reduction in branches, but we will always do that in line with the service levels and keep our services up for our clients. And we also provide that also that goes for this country service points as well as core opportunity or (inaudible) opportunity because we do see and continue to see there is sometimes a need for more personal interaction, and that's what we want to cater for.

Okay. Two more questions, if I may. I hit. You also said this morning that you're still looking at the return on equity to 10% to 12%. But is it even possible? If you see that the interest margin goes lower again. It's 1.64%, if I'm correct.

That's 1.46%. But yes, look, I mean, there is pressure on the interest side. And so what there we -- if you look at the levers that we can pull, that's on the revenue on the cost and on the capital side. On the revenue side, it means that if we get back to more normal economic activity, that will also mean that across the board, that should help loan growth to come back.

We've seen until 2019, we grew with 3% to 4% loan growth on average during that period. I'm not making a forecast, but I can imagine that there is some pent-up demand has -- or the demand will catch up initially, but we -- but with growing GDP, we would also see loan growth coming back. That's the first lever that we pull. And if you look at the Netherlands, the forecast for this year we have is that the GDP will grow with 3.2%. I know that the first quarter was still negative, and for 2022, it's 2.9%.

The second lever we pull is that where were possible and were reasonable we will also charge negative interest rates. And of course, we are diversifying our business model. And that's what you see, especially in the fee income or commission income that grew with 9% year-over-year or 11% quarter-by-quarter. And that's a trajectory, 5% to 10% this year of growth in fee income that we're comfortable with.

And the next lever is the cost. I think that we have developed quite a number of digital building blocks over the years that we can reuse. And we will do that and increasingly do that in the next coming years, and that should give us still benefit. And you see that with the OneApp rollout in the Netherlands and Belgium is now also being rolled out in Germany. It will be then there are to be rolled out in other countries as well.

And that basically means that you do not need to develop that as a country or a business line ourselves, and that will, in the end, give the scale benefit that will also help our costs. And in that sense, digitalization, especially (inaudible) also across countries is important. And the last one, is our capital certainly -- sorry, certainly -- currently, stands at 15.5%. It wasn't quite sudden, although it went quite quick. But it's 3% above the capital that we would like to hold because we believe that 12.5% is sufficient.

Now you all are aware of the dividend restrictions that we are currently under. Based on the latest information of the ECB. Those limitations will be lifted by September in this year. We remain hopeful that, that will be the case. But it, of course, also depends on the economic recovery, which we fully understand. And that is also then it means for us to gradually move towards the 12.5%, and it will also help in increasing our returns. So we're still confident that we make that, but it will require a number of steps, and it will require a couple of years.

Okay. Final question. In the Netherlands, 2 of the 3 largest banks, there are investigations against former CEOs. How do you look at that? And you still feel comfortable leading large bank, knowing this is a possibility for the future?

Well, look, I mean, if I wasn't, I wouldn't be sitting here. But one thing is clear that if someone is in an investigation or a suspect, whether justified or not, that is, of course, very sad for everybody involved. And this is the case for everybody in such a situation, whether you're working in the bank or somewhere else.

If you ask me about the case specifics, I have to be careful because every case is different. And it's very hard to judge that from the outside. That's not for me to say. When I look at our attractiveness as an employer, I think that the many factors we are all here, and I think that's especially our digital nature, our purpose clients, yes, environments that we have are international demeanour that we have as a company are very attractive for people to work with. And if I look around me, let's say, Thai CFO and Croatian CRO, I think that proves the point. So I think ING remains a very attractive important for everybody, including myself.

Next question is from (inaudible).

Yes. I have one more question about the TLTRO III. During the analyst presentation, you named some numbers. How much do you expect to benefit in the coming quarters? But I missed the exact number, so hoping you can name that again. And then a question about the management overlay in the group. I see a lot of banks doing that. And that makes me question, how sound is the current IFRS 9 system if banks have to be keep taking group overlays?

You don't want me to gang up against accountants, do you? But let me answer the first question, and then Ljiljana can answer the second question. So the amount for the next 5 quarters will be approximately EUR 75 million per quarter. And I have to be a bit more specific. So under this TLTRO III scheme, we have one more quarter to go, but because we missed the milestone as per end of March, we basically now booked 3 quarters, i.e., from July last year until March this year, we now booked in one go, that is a EUR 233 million, and will book approximately EUR 75 million remaining in the second quarter of this year.

And then, there is a second phase of TLTRO. They take -- the second phase uses a different start and end points, and the start point will then be October 2020 until December 2021. And there, we have said that we take a different position now compared to what we did previously. Because previously, we were less confident that we would make it. Where we currently stand, we are more confident that we will make it.

And therefore, we will unlikely book it only at the end. We will more likely book it quarter-by-quarter. And that would then mean that for the next 4 quarters thereafter. So the third, the fourth and then the first and the second in '22. We would again book EUR 75 million in each quarter for the remaining 4 quarters. So in short, next 5 quarters, EUR 75 million per quarter.

And then the second question goes to Ljiljana.

On the management overlays. Yes, correctly, everything we do is aligned and signed off with our auditors, clearly. And the reason why, in this case, management overlays are allowed, not just to us, but to the whole industry is the fact that the models cannot recognize the happenings in this pandemic based on the fact that there is as well government support that hasn't been seen in the past. So actually, models are just not able realistically to accept what is the risk profile. In order to remain prudent, it is clearly under the provision of the auditors agreed to take such overlays.

Okay. And then one more question about this topic. There are specific models that we have to use to determine how high your provisions are. But how much premium do you have to decide how high the overlay is going to be? How much freedom do the banks have?

Clearly, it is all based on the argumented methodology, which takes into account observations and takes into account data that we have witnessed so far. So it's the question of how do we show that what we think is going to be needed in the next quarters is really realistic on the data that we see. And as I said, it's always discussed and aligned with the auditors.

Then one more question for Steven. Would you say the pressure on NII is the thing that concern most as the CEO of the bank?

Well, it concerns me more. So I mean, clearly, it is a challenge for us and other financial institutions who are dependent for a large extent on interest income. We do see the interest being negative in Europe now in the short term, and also in the long term. So if you look at the interest rate curves, these remain negative for also the medium term and the long-term rates. Yes, and that is impacting the banks. That means that we need to adjust our business model to cater for that. So that indeed keeps you busy.

Yes. But if I look at your numbers, they're actually quite strong. But still the exchange of ING investors are not buying ING right now. So I think it must be the NII that concerns the most. And that's why I was wondering if that's also the main topic. Of course, there's a lot of stuff that you are concerned about, but that is a really big priority at the moment.

Well, the main topics in ING are, one, how do we continue to help our clients and stay prudent in the way that we are dealing with our clients. That's the first topic. So how do we deal with the corona pandemic from a clients' point of view, but also from an employee point of view.

And then the second topic is how do we build our business model into a more sustainable business model. And we do that by further diversifying continuously look at where we best allocate our capital and a point to the decisions that we've taken in the Czech Republic and Austria. Further digitalization because that helps both building better customer journeys, a better employee, so colleague experience. But also it will help our cost to serve and will also help us to be compliant by design, I call it the 4 Cs: colleagues; clients; cost to serve; and compliance.

And then how do we further extend our ESG profile, both from the way that we measure our own portfolios, but also how we help clients with that because that is a big problem for societies at large. And that transition, we're in the midst of, and we really want to be part of that.

Next question is from (inaudible) from the (inaudible)

I have one more question. Earlier this year, it was with Q4, you warned for a cliff effect when state support for companies would end. Do you think the risk of this since then decreased or increased?

I don't know. I mean, look, maybe if you look at businesses and even with the second lockdowns, you can see that although the lockdowns were stricter mid-December than in March of last year, with the retail stores were forced to close down, the economic consequences so far were less profound. And why do I say that? Because there were a number of businesses that could adjust their business models. Just name restaurants who are switching to home deliveries, and they got also their distribution channels for online shopping better in order.

And this also, in turn, boosted investment in, for example, transport equipments for online consumer spending. Now then you see consumers. They spend more online, so they're bolder online and that substituted service consumption for the purchase of goods. And there's also a bit less uncertainty. Because the vaccine programs really are kicking in. They are making progress. And that, therefore, means that you already see that there is higher investments being made and during the first local. And we do not only see that from our loans, but we also see that from manufacturing because manufacturing is holding up quite well with stronger foreign demands than in the spring of 2020.

And as you know, Netherlands is a big road trade country, and that already rebounded. So service exports remain weak. Goods exports are strong, and 5% higher than the pre-COVID peak, and that's despite the Brexit results. So there are some positive signs. And so that's what I want to mention. Now the flip side is, that even though that we have now been for 9 months in various lockdowns or in a subdued economic environment, we still do not see a big fallout in companies or clients that are defaulting, i.e., that are no longer being able to pay.

And that is, of course, has to do with all the measures that have been taken by the governments and the -- as well as the payment holidays by the banks. So what we really need to do is to look at what will happen after we get out of these lockdowns, after economic activity returns to normal, but also need to see what happens to these 8 programs.

And there is a bit of a concern that if these 8 programs suddenly stop, that would mean there is some catch of costs that these companies need to make. Because suddenly certainly, they need to pay taxes. Suddenly, they need to pay salaries. Suddenly, all the fiscal similars are then gone. While only gradually their revenues will recover. And then the question is, do these companies have enough working capital? Do they have enough buffer to sustain that certain shift? And that's why I advocate that these measures are only built down gradually rather than abruptly.

Okay. So that's the big risk.

That is a potential concern that could cause the cliff effects.

Yes, yes. And where in time would you place that cliff effect with the knowledge we have now? Is it still like in the end of the summer or autumn or maybe later?

Look, I mean, what I would look at is when economic activity gets back to near-normal levels that we expect in the course of the third quarter, at this point. And then we would need to see, okay, what does it actually mean for the economic activity and the strength of these businesses. And I think that's what we need to take into account when building down these measures.

Next question is from Mr. (inaudible).

I have 2 small questions. One was about the negative interest rates. I was wondering, are you -- you were talking about increased fee income. I was wondering if that's also the case with the retail clients. You see, of course, of the challenger banks who were charging EUR 8 month for like a bank account, wouldn't that be fairly easy solution to level out the negative interest rates?

Yes. I mean, we are charging for services that we provide to our clients. In the past, where we came from is that we had a number of these challenger banks only savings accounts. Well, I don't need to explain to you what revenue that we'll be making given the negative interest rate environment.

So it means that you need to charge the cost that you make in another way or shape so that we do indeed charge for our daily banking services increasingly also in other countries. And at the same time, we try to develop better services and other services to our clients who are broadening the service to our clients for which, if there is a good service, we can charge for that.

Sure. Okay. Another question I had, you said something about the OneApp strategy. Of course, the project Maggie has stopped. You were now talking about starting out in Germany and rolling out in other countries. What's the difference between this project and the Maggie project?

I think that what you saw in the Maggie project is that in a number of those IT projects that we embarked upon, we tried to do too much at the same time, also including integrating our back offices, and we call it our core banks, at least in retail, you call that core banks. And that has -- those are the elements that includes all the client and product information. And for -- and that is something that takes many years and is very complicated from an IT point of view to do.

And so when you're in a changing environment, such as we came in as a result of COVID, you basically -- I basically said I want to refocus on a shorter period of time with more execution certainty when integrating certain elements. So we've stopped Maggie to step away from integrating the middle or the back end of our systems, and focus more on step-by-step integration. So rolling out an app or rolling out a services journey.

And a service journey, you can look at that. If you look at your app, you say, okay, a payment, that is a service journey and to develop that, and when we have developed it, roll it out gradually, country-by-country by country. Then the cycles are shorter, but the execution certainty is higher with lower investment, and that is what I've chosen.

(Operator Instructions)

I've got no more questions. Go ahead please.

Sorry. Was that one more question or no more question?

No more questions, I said.

No questions. Okay. I misheard you. I'm sorry. Okay. Let me then wrap up this call.

The first quarter of '21 showed a strong performance with a net profit of just over EUR 1 billion. The result was driven by higher interest income on the back of the TLTRO program, which offsets the ongoing margin pressure. At the same time, we saw a robust growth of fee income of 9% year-on-year, driven by investment products.

Lending that grew with about EUR 18 billion, increased by (inaudible) as we saw the effects of the pandemic continuum. Risk costs remained low as the macroeconomic effects were offset by overlays for the expected delay in credit losses due to the pandemic.

And with that, we leave you for now, if you have any further questions, all of you know very well how the conduct our media team. And otherwise, we will, for sure, speak soon, but at least in the next quarter. Thank you very much.