Harte Hanks Inc (HHS) 2008 Q4 法說會逐字稿

Welcome and thank you for joining the fourth-quarter and year-end 2008 earnings call. At this time all participants are in a listen- only mode. (Operator Instructions) Today's conference is being recorded. If you have any objections, you may disconnect at this time.

Now I'll turn the meeting over to Mr. Larry Franklin, President and CEO of Harte- Hanks. Sir, you may begin.

Good morning. On the call with me today is Doug Shepard, our Executive Vice President and Chief Financial Officer; Jessica Huff, our Vice President of finance and controller; and Bryan Perchersky, our Senior Vice President, general council and secretary, and before I begin with my remarks, Bryan will make a few statements. Bryan?

Thanks, Larry. Our call may include forward-looking statements. Examples may include: Statements about our strategies, initiatives and business plans; adjustment to our cost structure, financial outlook and capital resources; competitive factors, business and industry expectations; the economic downturn in the US and other economies; and other statements that are not historical facts. Actual results may differ materially from those projected or implied in these statements because of various risks and uncertainties, including those described in our most-recent Form 10- K and other documents filed with the Securities and Exchange Commission, and in the cautionary statement in today's earnings release. Our call may also include non-GAAP financial measures. Please refer to today's earnings release for the required reconciliations and other related disclosures. Our earnings release is available on the investor relations section of our website at www.Harte-Hanks.com.

I will now turn the call back over to Larry.

Thank you, Bryan. As we mentioned in the press release that you received this morning the fourth quarter was one of the most difficult that our Company's faced. The overall economic climate. and more specifically the fourth quarter financial market events dramatically influenced business and consumer confidence, affecting our customers' marketing plans which impact on our Direct Marketing revenue. We mentioned on this call in October that uncertainty and caution were the prevailing themes that we were hearing from clients regarding future spending plans, and that caution became even more pronounced throughout the fourth quarter, resulting in program and volume reductions and delays in spending by our clients. While spending decreased across all our vertical markets it was most pronounced in financial, pharma healthcare, and the retail verticals. In Shoppers the negative trends and economic conditions that we've seen since 2007 in California and Florida continued.

Going into the fourth quarter our operating assumption was that the revenue environment would be difficult, and we've not seen any fundamental changes that would indicate that that outlook should be any different. As a result of the difficult economic environment, which impacted Shoppers throughout 2008 and Direct Marketing in late 2008, we continued and accelerated our actions across the Company in the fourth quarter to adjust our expense base to the new economic realities. Those actions are outlined in some detail in the press release and Doug will add some additional details to it in his comments. However, I will say that I am pleased and impressed this the way that our leadership -- excuse me -- and all of our coworkers have responded to this rapidly changing environment that none of us have participated in before. And before I turn it over to Doug, I want to make three or four points.

This global business climate and reduced consumer confidence, weakened demand and disruption in the credit and financial markets makes it extremely difficult for us to have any real visibility on when things will improve and obviously affects the visibility of our revenue. I believe there is a bright future for data-driven, targeted marketing solutions that deliver value and achieve results for our clients, and both of our businesses provide services and products that are even more necessary in this environment because we help our clients talk directly to their customers and generate revenue for them now.

We also remain focused on conservatively managing our balance sheet and cash flows and we're committing to emerging from this recession as an even stronger Company and leader in an industry with great opportunities for long-term success. And I can't say too much about our coworkers and leadership and -- because they face some very challenge and difficult decisions, and will have more of those, and they have responded with resolve and dedication because our mission, our vision is clear. We remain intensely focused on keeping our existing customers and adding customers, reducing our costs, and conserving our cash, and because of these people at Harte-Hanks, I'm confident that we will succeed.

Doug, you want to provide some more details?

Thank you, Larry, and good morning. Here is a Company-wide overview of the fourth-quarter and full-year 2008. Revenue decreased 11% for the quarter and 6.9% for the year. Direct Marketing decreased 8.1% for the quarter and was flat for the year. Shoppers decreased 17.2% for the quarter and 18.7% for the year. Operating income decreased 46% for the quarter and 28.9% for the year. For the quarter Direct Marketing declined 19.2% while Shoppers declined $14.7 million. For the year Direct Marketing decreased 5.2% and Shoppers decreased 63.4%. For the quarter our free cash flow was $20.9 million versus $29.9 million in 2007. For the year free cash flow was $82.8 million, as compared to $105.4 million in 2007. We ended the year with $20 million in capital spending, $8.2 million less than the $28. 2 million spent in 2007. For 2009, we currently expect our capital spending to be in the area $10 million to $15 million,

Turning to our two businesses, in the quarter Direct Marketing revenue decreased 8.1%, and operating income decreased 19.2%, resulting in an operating income margin decrease to 15.6% compared to 17.7% in the fourth quarter of 2007. During the quarter October revenues were consistent with the overall third quarter trends, but November and December decreased sharply. A charge of $2.8 million was taken in the fourth quarter related to headcount reductions, a result of adjusting expenses to the revenue decline. Removing this charge would have resulted in operating income margins of 17.1% for the quarter. For the year operating income margins finished at 14.1%, a decrease from 2007 margins at 14.9%.

In the quarter our high-tech telecom vertical market represented 29% of Direct Marketing revenue; retail was 28%, select markets were 19%, financial was 12.5%, and healthcare pharma was 11.5%. For the year, high-tech telecom represented 28% of Direct Marketing revenue, retail was 25%, financial was 15.5%, select markets 20%, and healthcare pharma 11%. Our top 25 Direct Marketing customers represented approximately 44% of Direct Marketing revenue for the quarter, and 41% for the year.

Turning to Shoppers. Our performance for the quarter and the year was disappointing. Shoppers fourth quarter revenue decreased by 17 2% and 18.7% for the year. As we discussed in last quarter's call, due to calendar shifts we had one extra week of publication in the fourth quarter of 2008 versus 2007. The 53rd week has historically been marginally profitable and 2008 it was a small loss. The extra week caused an approximate four point increase in quarterly revenues and a one point increase for the year. Circulation curtailment negatively the quarter by one point and the year by 1.2 points. Shoppers operating income margin for the quarter declined -1.2% as compared to 14.1% for the prior-year quarter, and for the year, operating income margin was 7.4% as compared to 16.4% in 2007.

Responding to the worsening economic environment our Shoppers leadership took aggressive additional steps to reduce costs, which resulted in $2.1 million of fourth quarter charges. Towards the end of the quarter approximately 500,000 circulation was closed in Florida. In California we will close approximately 700,000 circulation in three areas early in the first quarter of 2009. The Florida circulation curtailment will allow us to consolidate two production facilities into one facility. The expected 2009 savings from the consolidation, which will be completed by the end of the first quarter, will be offset by the 2009 first-quarter charges previously outlined. Most of the charges we discussed in the press release impacting the first quarter of 2009 relate to lease exit costs and accelerated depreciation from the production facility consolidation. Removing the fourth quarter Shoppers charges would have resulted in a small amount of operating income. These 2008 fourth quarter and 2009 first quarter payroll actions, which resulted in the reduced -- will result in reduced 2009 Direct Marketing expenses of $22.5 million, along with $6.1 million of Shoppers expenses.

Our fourth quarter effective tax rate was 35.6%, which was slightly lower than the 2007 fourth quarter of 36.6%. Lower state taxes drove the decrease. Our 2008 effective tax rate was 38.2%, which was 50 basis points down from our 2007 effective tax rate. For 2009 we expect our effective tax rate to be approximately 35% to 36%. We estimate the fourth quarter charges outlined in our press release, which include the CEO transition in December, negatively impacted fourth quarter earns by approximately 50 -- by approximately $0.055 per share. On the balance sheet, at December 31st we showed a net debt balance of $240.5 million versus $273.5 million at September 30th, a reduction of $33 million. Net accounts receivable were $169.4 million versus $199.2 million at year-end 2007. Days outstanding at the end of December 58 days, a decrease compared to the 60 days outstanding at December 2007. We ended the quarter with a leverage ratio of 1.7 times versus a covenant of three times and interest coverage ratio 11.2 times versus a covenant of 2.7 times. We currently have all $125 million available under our revolver. We believe that our conservatively-leveraged balance sheet and free cash flow provide us good operational flexibility.

With that, operator, we'd like to turn the call over for questions.

Thank you. (Operator Instructions) Our first question comes from Matt Chesler from Deutsche Bank.

Good morning, thanks for taking my call.

Morning.

You said that the declines in Direct Marketing accelerated throughout the quarter with November and December softer than October, correct? As you've headed into January, what can you say about the declines you've seen in January versus December?

Well, we actually don't have the January results yet, but we expect it'll be similar to where we ended the year.

Is that based off anecdotal comments that you've had with your managers?

Yes.

So, it's similar to the way December ended or similar to the quarter?

No, the way December and November ended.

Okay. In Direct Marketing I was somewhat encouraged to see how quickly you reacted to the slowing demand by adjusting your cost structure. Is it safe to -- is it a safe statement to make that you felt there was some excess fat in the division? Just curious to know if you agree with that assessment, And can you quantify in terms of the rough number of people, or percent of headcount that the payroll actions that you have taken -- and besides actions other than headcount, were there any other actions, such as office closures, that are the focus of your efforts in the division?

Are you talking about in Direct Marketing?

Still in Direct Marketing, yes.

Okay, fine. No I don't think it was addressing fat, I think it was addressing more the -- just the realities that the world faces today after what took place in -- well, what was -- what we had expected to be happening in the fourth quarter anyway, but what was really -- precipitated dramatic changes in November and December that you see and read about and hear about every day in the business. Now, what we did do -- and you're right, the management and the people in the Direct Marketing really did take some actions that we believe will position us well as we go through 2009 and when -- and we're not forecasting -- not even attempting to forecast improved business. We're just managing and running the business the way we see the environment today.

And there were -- throughout the year we closed a couple of call centers and moved them into an existing call center. We moved one distribution center from New Jersey to suburban Boston, and what's interesting is when you see these one-time events and they're actually, obviously, charges associated to that, with severance and lease terminations and those sorts of things, what you don't see is the intense -- when I say intense focus on how we are running this business, and our people are doing a marvelous job there. They make decisions every single day that influence not just how we do business, but the cost of that business and where we see the business going. So, there were other actions taken and we'll continue to look at where the business goes. But you're right in that they were quick to respond and know it was not taking fat out of the system.

Can you comment on your pharma vertical, in particular? Do you see any changes in the composition of the major pharmaceutical companies that will adversely impact your business?

We don't -- well, obviously see the changes with what's been announced, but we don't know any reason to think that it would effectively -- or that it would affect our clients, maybe a little. Every time there's a merger, you have two -- there are two things that can happen. You can win and you can lose. Rarely does everybody stay the same. So where we are on this par -- right now is that we're maybe a little optimistic there. But in the performance for the pharma and healthcare vertical it was the insurance -- healthcare insurance part that was driven by some reduced volumes in mail that impacted that vertical flow.

Thanks, Larry.

Our next question comes from [Alexia Parjonie] from JPMorgan.

Thank you. Just starting off on the Shoppers business and the obvious weakness there, you've been very aggressive in cutting back circulation to help preserve profitability. I guess my question is, after this next tranch in the first quarter is completed, are there any areas within the areas you operate in that are still operating at probably lower-than-average profitable that you feel that you can still cut back more if this downturn prevails?

Well, Alexia, yes, there are areas that are operating at below the average. What we've done at this point is -- and about to do with the California curtailment in early February, we will be removing the circulation that we think is a drag on us for the foreseeable future. If you look back a little bit at our Shoppers circulation expansion, between 2004 and 2006 that was the most aggressive expansion period that we had ever had. I think we added, I don't know, close to two million circulation, and then we obviously also bought Campa, which added about 900,000 circulation. Over the last -- with the 2007 closure and then the ones that we've announced and the little one that we did earlier, we will have closed about two million circulation.

A lot of that was the recent circulation. For example, I think it was in the Florida fourth quarter circ closure where 250 of that circ -- 250,000 of that circulation we had expanded in 2006, just before the market hit the wall. And the same thing is true in California. And the remainder of the circulation in Florida most of it was in the 2004 to 2006 expansions with the exception maybe of 300,000, 400,000 that have just been chronically weak. But it was in areas that was in the contiguous areas we wanted to keep the circulation but we've taken it out. We continue to look at circulation, and will, and have for years. but there's none planned at this moment other than the February.

Okay. And then Larry, if I remember correctly, in your previous tenure at CEO you made some strategic changes to the business, which in hindsight looked -- clearly been very positive for the Company, exiting some businesses and getting into others. I guess when -- I know you said positive things about the Shoppers business when you started off the call, but if this downturn continues for longer than we can see do you feel the Shoppers business is something you-- Harte-Hanks needs to be involved in longer term?

Yes.

Okay. On the -- (LAUGHTER) I guess you're pretty clear there. On the Direct side of the business, just a quick follow-up question. On the select and tech-telecom verticals it did relatively well, any reason to -- can we assume that that relative outperformance will continue in the first quarter?

It's hard really to -- it's hard to say what's going to happen in the first quarter. A lot will depend on what happens to those customers. We know of nothing at this point that would say that it's going to be down or up or -- we've got a -- what we do have is a very diverse customer base. We have terrific relationships with these clients. But, Alexia, it's hard to know until our clients make their final decisions on where they're going to spends their money.

Okay. And just on the softer segments -- the financial, retail, pharma -- I believe at least in retail, you had one bankruptcy among your clients, were there other one- time things that you think negatively influenced those results, as well?

Not really, no.

Okay. Thank you.

But we are, in fact, obviously watching receivable balances rather carefully.

Okay. Thank you.

Thank you.

Our next question comes from Edward Atorino from Benchmark

Thanks, the questions I wanted to ask, but on the receivables how is -- how are the collections coming along, just curious?

The ans -- what's happened to day sales, Doug?

The day sales outstanding have slightly decreased, they've come down a couple of days. It is -- we've put in some additional oversight management procedures. Obviously, retail is one of our largest verticals on the Direct Marketing side and you go through Christmas season, where we were anticipating where they would build up their balances, but like I said, we put in some additional oversight and currently we're not experiencing any significant issues.

January, most people are saying, has just been a disaster. Is there any sign that January may be something like a bottom or whatever?

I would expect to ask you that question, and you to give me advice, Ed. (LAUGHTER)

Okay.Well, I thought January was a bottom (inaudible). (LAUGHTER) I love you.

No, we really -- it's hard to --

All right, then, just thought I'd ask.

Okay.

Our next question is from Dan Salmon.

Good morning, guys, thanks for taking my questions. First off, what are that -- in the press release you noted that that you had some low single-digit growth in the select markets vertical, and I know in the past you've mentioned that some of your foreign auto clients, in particular, have been relatively strong and also noted the agency of record agreement with Hyundai, any comment there on some of the broader trends?

It was driven in Q4 by auto and so far that's doing well.

Okay. And does that go across more than just Hyundai, or are other folks there that are helping that?

Yes.

Okay. And then secondly, one of the things you mentioned here in the press release, one of the new initiatives, the power site initiative to help establishing web presences for small and medium-size businesses, can you explain the rationale of launching that on your own versus partnering with some of the established online marketing services companies out there that focus on the local market, like [Marchecks]?

Yes, the -- and that is in our Shoppers business, what the power sites are, they're in essence websites for our advertisers, complete with an URL that also allows us to do call tracking where we can -- where these smaller customers -- and many of them don't have their own websites, and what even though they do are more just for information, and what this allows smaller clients to do is to really understand who is calling and what they're asking for and we just -- it's more lead generation. Our desire to "do it on our own," -- and we're obviously hiring and have people from outside the Shoppers business -- is that we think the real value here is for us to attach the web initiative, the power sites, to our in-book advertisers.

And so that we've got an advertiser that's in the book, and when you go out and talk to these small businesses they have grown their business through the PennySaver and flyers in those markets and they know they need to be in the book, but they're also looking at, how do we know which of our ads are working and which are working best, and this call tracking piece of the power site allows them to determine that and give them that web presence. And combining the web with the print then our overall franchise value increases, as opposed to we're going to do a web initiative that's going to replace some of the advertisers that are leaving "the print product." Could we have done it with some other outside vendor? I assume we could have, but I am really pleased with the traction that we're getting and in this environment I think i'ill accelerate.

Okay, that's helpful. And then just one last one. Considering the revenue pressure and then obviously the offsetting cost savings, any comments on your dividend and how do you -- what your plans for that may be in 2009?

Yes, it's not on the table to look at.

Okay. Thanks very much, Larry.

Our next question comes from Andrew Cash from [Point Clear Value Management.]

Morning. I was wondering in very rough terms if you could tell me what would you say could be - how many customers could be at risk because of questionable balance sheets and questionable cash flows?

I truly don't know how to quantify that, because we have 3,000, 4,000 customers. We have the best of the best in each of those verticals, but we sure don't underestimate the pressure that all businesses are under today.

I was wondering -- maybe if you took a look at some of your biggest customers, do you feel any risk that maybe six months down the road, or 12 months they're going to be out of business?

No.

Okay.

No, we don't.

So generally you feel good about your customers' ability to continue to do business with you if they choose to do that?

Yes.

Okay. Second question I had, and maybe this is sensitive topic, but I'd like some color on Dean Blythe's departure.

As we said in the press release, the view was that given the environment we were in that we all agreed that it was to our advantage to make a change and that's what we did.

Okay. And if I could ask you, what are your plans -- are you looking for someone to come in from the outside, from the inside?

I'm -- I will not be doing this ten years from now.

Okay. But you're there to get us back on the road to recovery?

Yes.

Okay, thank you very much.

Thank you.

Our next question is from [Brenton Slen] from Robert W. Baird.

Hi, this is Brenton in for Dan Leben. I just wanted to get a little bit more color on the auto vertical. Are you seeing some of your foreign clients changing their approach to become more aggressive, given the problems we're seeing in Detroit?

I have not heard our people -- our national markets people say that, so I don't think so.

Okay.

Some of them have their own challenges. But we're -- we really like where we are in that vertical.

Okay. And then moving on, did you all quantify your largest customer as a percent of Direct Marketing revenue? I don't think we did, but I think it's, what, 8%?

Yes, it's in the 8% neighborhood.

Okay. Thank you.

Which is historically where it's been.

(Operator Instructions) Our next question is from Michael Kupinski from Noble Financial.

Thank you for taking the question. I was wondering if you can you quantify the revenue impact you'fe expecting from the Shoppers shuttering the 500,000 circulation in Florida and 700,000 California, can you just quantify what the revenue impact might be there?

Isn't it, Doug, about $17 million of revenue that we had in '08 from the circulation that we have and will close in February.

Okay. And were those -- was that circulation then reflecting a loss or was it just modestly profitable?

No, it was a couple million dollars loss.

Okay, all right. And, Larry, you've been in the past just an extremely good manager, particularly in a very tough period back in the 2001, which I remember the Direct Marketing faced double-digit revenue declines and you had very aggressive expense cutting opportunities back then. I was just wondering if there are any differences in terms of shifts in contributions from verticals that may not allow you to cut costs as aggressively as you did then?

Well, the -- Gary Skidmore, who runs Shoppers, and Pete Gorman, who runs Direct -- I got them backwards there. (LAUGHTER) I just switched the two heads -- (LAUGHTER) Gary, who runs Direct Marketing, and Pete, who runs Shoppers, have been with us for long periods of time, and there have been changes being made as we have gone through the cycle, particularly in Shoppers that started in 2007, and Direct Marketing, which we were expecting in the second half and which actually arrived with greater than our expectations of what was going to happen in the fourth quarter, so a lot of the changes that we've been talking about on these calls for the last -- or they've been talking about on these calls for the last few quarters, those are being accelerated. The question of are there -- I think the question was are their costs that can continue to be looked at and the answer -- if that is the question, the answer to that's yes.

Now, what we are doing, which is what I emphasized in the closing comment of my remarks, again, because of the lack of visibility on our businesses then we are working extremely hard -- we always have, but we're redoubling our effort at servicing our existing customers in uncommon ways, and then we'vegot intense focus on how we right-size our cost, and as the businesses become smaller -- whether it's a vertical or whether it's a territory or a part of our Shoppers business, how we reflect that reduced size in the structure and in the -- and the people costs that we have, and that is where a lot of the initiative was toward the end of last year and the first part of this year. And then we've got just many, many things happening in our Company and it is -- people are -- I'm just amazed at the attitude and dedication of our people to look at every single thing that's going on and saying, is that adding some value to our customers today, and it will tomorrow, and if it's not we ask why are we doing it. And so I think that's the thing that gives me encouragement about it.

Larry, how would --

When we come out of this recession, whenever that happens to be, I truly believe we're going to be in marathon shape.

Larry, I guess in terms of my question was more of, back in 2001 I think its retail vertical was a much larger component of total revenue than it is now and you have telecom being more significant now. I was just curious, in terms of the verticals does it necessarily mean that you have more cost-cutting opportunities or less cost-cutting opportunities than you did back then?

Now the high-tech, I think part of the high-tech telecom is the bigger --

Right.

-- is the bigger part, and I don't think so. I don't think it's the verticals that's driving the ability to cut costs.

Okay. And in your Direct Marketing business, it seems to be a little slower to show the signs of weakness. Of course the general advertising market environment really deteriorated and particularly even for retail, as most retailers scaled back way early in terms of you just now seeing it in the fourth quarter. I was just wondering if -- newspapers have indicated that they're seeing some signs of -- some have it, at least -- some signs of stabilization in the first quarter in the retail category, can you talk a little bit about what that particular vertical's looking like as you go into the first quarter?

Well, not so much going into the first quarter, but when you said ours was slower, we've had some really good -- really high-quality customers that have increased business with us, so as the environment has driven the retail revenue down we've got some clients that are spending more so that's the positive thing. As to the, have we seen stabilization? I don't think we've seen yet the results of what people -- what these customers are reporting in the fourth quarter, meaning how are they going to respond to what -- to where their business is. So tha -- again, that's why we have a hard time with commenting on visibility of the revenue.

Great, thank you for that color. I appreciate it.

Our next question comes from Ed Atorino from Benchmark.

Hi, Larry. Direct Marketing is a group of businesses, is there much difference between the call centers, the direct mail, the internet business or is it pretty much across the board?

In terms of change, you mean?

Yes, the weakness and concentrated any part of the Direct Marketing business or is it pretty much across the board?

Some of them -- the people are -- they're not so much cutting out programs, but reducing volumes of mail. But at the same time some of the dollars -- and this is hard to track, as you know from your history and just knowledge of this industry -- as people take money outs of the mass media, the mail is an immeasurable service, so you're getting some of that switch. Now I can't quantify because -- and don't know how widespread it is or deep it's going to be, but what has happened is the reduction of volumes and it's been in the mail part of the business.

Okay, thanks much. Appreciate it, Larry.

Our next question's from Matt Chesler from Deutsche Bank

Hi, I have a quick follow up on the earlier question about your commitment to being -- remaining in the Shoppers business and it's -- I'm following up not because your answer wasn't clear, but only because it's been so long that we've been seeing these large declines in the business that sometimes I need a reminder of why it's an attractive business to be in longer term.

Well, if you look at the geography, and you say California and Florida -- and I don't know the exact statistics, but I still think California's in the top ten largest economies in the world, or something -- I'm not sure that would be the case today, but it's a very attractive market, Florida, those two markets have been very hard hit. And the reason that I say we want to be in that business and need to be in that business is if you go to those markets, as I do, and if you ride with our salespeople and you listen to the stories of these small businesses and how they reach their customers, this product moves merchandise for those customers. And we will always have -- albeit smaller today, we will always have a significant number of small businesses, entrepreneurial businesses, and this product -- and I think, again, the ability to link this directly with the web, I think -- I think it's a good business. Now, if California and Florida are still hard hit five years, ten years from now I guess you can never say never. but I mean it is -- it's not on the radar screen at the moment.

Would you feel the same way you do than about the business as you do now if, as we emerge from this cycle, that the business didn't produce the same profitability, characteristics? Let's say that it emerged it was generating single-digit margins rather than the historical double-digit ones?

Well, it's -- does it have to get back to where it was when we had 25% or what -- I don't know what was the high water market in margins. No, going from where it is to 8% to 10% to 12% to 14% that progression would be really, really great. Do I think it'll get back to 25% margin? I don't spend any time really thinking about it, to be honest with you. What I do spends time thinking about is over time is it a business that will stay in the main stream of how small to medium-sized customers -- how our small to medium-sized customers go to market to get their clients. And to me, certainly at this point there's nothing to indicate that that's not the case. Now -- but directly, does it have to get back to 25% margins? No. Will it? I don't know. I would say probably not, but I don't know.

All right, thank you. That's all I have.

At this time, we have no further questions. Now I'd like to turn the call back over to Mr. Larry Franklin for foreclosing comments.

Okay. I just want to again reemphasize to everyone on the call -- and really appreciate the questions -- but we've got a group of people that are -- that have made Harte-Hanks successful for many years and are as convinced or more convinced and as committed or more committed than they've ever been to making this a great Company and keeping it a great Company and making it a great place to be. So, to them, I just want to say thank you. Thanks for the call and thanks for the questions.

This concludes today's conference call. You may disconnect at this time.