Everforth, Inc. (EFOR) 2024 Q4 法說會逐字稿

Greetings, and welcome to the ASGN Incorporated fourth quarter and full-year 2024 earnings call. (Operator Instructions)

各位好，歡迎參加 ASGN Incorporated 2024 年第四季暨全年財報電話會議。(接線員指示)

It is now my pleasure to introduce your host, Kimberly Esterkin, Investor Relations. Thank you. You may begin.

現在很榮幸為各位介紹本次會議主持人：投資人關係部 Kimberly Esterkin。謝謝。您可以開始了。

Good afternoon. Thank you for joining us today for ASGN's fourth quarter full-year 2024 conference call. With me are Ted Hanson, Chief Executive Officer; Rand Blazer, President; and Marie Perry, Chief Financial Officer.

各位下午好。感謝各位今天參加 ASGN 2024 年第四季暨全年電話會議。與我一同出席的有：執行長 Ted Hanson、總裁 Rand Blazer，以及財務長 Marie Perry。

Before we get started, I would like to remind everyone that our commentary contains forward-looking statements. Although we believe these statements are reasonable, they are subject to risks and uncertainties, and as such, our actual results could differ materially from those statements. Certain of these risks and uncertainties are described in today's press release and in our SEC filings. We do not assume any obligation to update statements made on this call.

在開始之前，我想提醒各位，我們的評論包含前瞻性陳述。雖然我們相信這些陳述是合理的，但它們仍受風險與不確定性影響，因此我們的實際結果可能與這些陳述有重大差異。其中部分風險與不確定性已在今日新聞稿及我們向 SEC 提交的文件中說明。我們不承擔更新本次電話會議中所作陳述的任何義務。

For your convenience, our prepared remarks and supplemental materials can be found in the Investor Relations section of our website at investors.asgn.com.

為方便各位，我們的事先準備講稿與補充資料可於 investors.asgn.com 網站的投資人關係專區查閱。

Please also note that on this call, we will be referencing certain non-GAAP measures, such as adjusted EBITDA, adjusted net income, free cash flow. These non-GAAP measures are intended to supplement the comparable GAAP measures. Reconciliations between GAAP and non-GAAP measures are included in today's press release.

也請注意，本次電話會議將引用若干非 GAAP 指標，例如調整後 EBITDA、調整後淨利、自由現金流。這些非 GAAP 指標旨在補充可比較的 GAAP 指標。GAAP 與非 GAAP 指標之間的調節表已包含於今日新聞稿中。

I will now turn the call over to Ted Hanson, Chief Executive Officer.

接下來我將把電話會議交給執行長 Ted Hanson。

Thank you, Kim, and thank you for joining ASGN's fourth quarter and full-year 2024 earnings call.

謝謝你，Kim，也感謝各位參加 ASGN 2024 年第四季暨全年財報電話會議。

Throughout 2024, we remain committed to advancing ASGN's business towards higher-end, high-value IT consulting solutions. This commitment is reflected in the growth of our IT consulting revenues. For the year, IT consulting revenues from both the commercial and government sectors comprised approximately 58% of total revenues, up from roughly 53% in the prior year period.

在 2024 年期間，我們持續致力於推動 ASGN 的業務朝向更高端、更高價值的 IT 顧問解決方案發展。這項承諾反映在我們 IT 顧問營收的成長上。就全年而言，來自商業與政府部門的 IT 顧問營收約占總營收的 58%，高於前一年度同期約 53%。

While Q4 revenue was slightly below expectations, the highlight of the quarter was once again gross and adjusted EBITDA margins, which exceeded our expectations. Despite IT budgets remaining constrained, our pipeline of work has continued to expand. Double-digit year-over-year growth in commercial consulting bookings in the fourth quarter underscores our participation in our clients' long-term IT strategies.

雖然第四季營收略低於預期，但本季亮點再次是毛利率與調整後 EBITDA 利潤率，均超出我們預期。儘管 IT 預算仍然受限，我們的工作管線仍持續擴大。第四季商業顧問訂單年增達雙位數，凸顯我們參與客戶長期 IT 策略的程度。

As we transition into 2025, we are beginning to see an improvement in business confidence, although we believe turnaround in IT spending has yet to materialize. To meet the anticipated growing demand for IT services we remain closely aligned with our enterprise and federal government customers, understanding their strategic needs and positioning our solutions accordingly in key areas such as AI, cybersecurity, and data.

隨著我們邁入 2025 年，我們開始看到企業信心有所改善，但我們認為 IT 支出回升尚未真正出現。為滿足預期中日益成長的 IT 服務需求，我們仍與企業客戶及聯邦政府客戶保持緊密一致，理解其策略需求，並在 AI、資安與資料等關鍵領域相應地定位我們的解決方案。

Maintaining deep customer relationships with Fortune 1000 and key defense and intelligence agencies is essential to ASGN's market differentiation. Also important to driving the underpinnings of our long-term strategy is the depth and breadth of our leadership team. As part of a planned succession, we recently announced that our President, Rand Blazer, will transition to the role of Executive Vice Chairman this March. I'll elaborate on Rand's continued commitment to our company as well as welcome our newest executive team addition, Shiv Iyer, who will be joining us from Accenture later in today's call.

與《財星》1000 大企業以及關鍵國防與情報機構維持深厚的客戶關係，是 ASGN 市場差異化的關鍵。同樣重要、也是推動我們長期策略基礎的，是我們領導團隊的深度與廣度。作為既定接班計畫的一部分，我們近期宣布總裁 Rand Blazer 將於今年三月轉任執行副董事長。我稍後將進一步說明 Rand 對公司的持續承諾，並在今天的電話會議稍晚歡迎我們最新加入的高階主管 Shiv Iyer，他將自 Accenture 加入我們。

Beyond the forward-thinking leadership team's successful tuck-in acquisitions are core to enhancing our organic consulting growth. We continued our M&A efforts in 2025 announcing just yesterday, our definitive agreement to acquire TopBloc, preferred certified Workday Services Partner. I'll discuss the strategy behind the TopBloc acquisition shortly, but first, let's turn to our segment performance for the quarter.

除了具前瞻性的領導團隊之外，我們成功的補強型併購（tuck-in acquisitions）也是提升顧問業務有機成長的核心。我們在 2025 年持續推動併購，並於昨日宣布已簽署最終協議，將收購 TopBloc（Workday 服務的優選認證合作夥伴）。我稍後將說明收購 TopBloc 背後的策略，但首先讓我們先看本季各事業部門的表現。

Our Commercial Segment services Fortune 1000 and large mid-market companies. Revenues for the segment were again driven by growth in our consulting business, which improved 6% year-over-year. Consulting bookings of $348.2 million put our book-to-bill at 1.2x for the quarter and 1.1x on a trailing 12-month basis. Although consulting bookings remained weighted towards renewals, a reflection of our strong client relationships, our new work continues to grow each quarter.

我們的商業事業部門服務《財星》1000 大企業及大型中型市場公司。該部門營收再次由顧問業務成長所帶動，年增 6%。顧問訂單為 3.482 億美元，使本季接單出貨比（book-to-bill）達 1.2 倍，過去 12 個月滾動基礎為 1.1 倍。雖然顧問訂單仍以續約為主（反映我們強健的客戶關係），但我們的新案源每季持續成長。

From an industry perspective, growth for the quarter was led by our TMT and Consumer and Industrial verticals. The TMT vertical improved mid-single digits compared to the fourth quarter of 2023 and also improved low single digits for the full year. Improvement in TMT revenues were led by growth in e-Commerce and media and entertainment accounts.

從產業角度來看，本季成長主要由我們的 TMT（科技、媒體與電信）以及消費與工業垂直領域帶動。TMT 垂直領域相較 2023 年第四季呈現中個位數成長，全年亦呈現低個位數成長。TMT 營收改善主要由電子商務以及媒體與娛樂客戶的成長所帶動。

Consumer and Industrial accounts improved low single digits as compared to the prior year quarter, driven by double-digit improvement in utilities and material accounts along with mid-single-digit growth in Consumer Staples and Consumer Discretionary accounts.

消費與工業客戶相較去年同期呈現低個位數成長，主要受公用事業與材料類客戶的雙位數改善，以及民生必需品與非必需消費品客戶的中個位數成長所帶動。

While the financial services vertical declined year-over-year within the vertical, big banks, fintech and diversified financials all improved low single digits on a billable day-adjusted basis. As one of the largest spenders on IT, this improvement within the Financial Services vertical, especially amongst our big banking clients is a move in the right direction.

雖然金融服務垂直領域整體年對年下滑，但大型銀行、金融科技（fintech）與多元金融在調整可計費天數後皆呈現低個位數成長。作為 IT 支出最大的產業之一，金融服務垂直領域的這項改善，尤其是在我們大型銀行客戶之間，是朝正確方向邁進的一步。

On a sequential basis, adjusting for the 2.5 fewer billable days in the quarter, Consumer and Industrial accounts improved low single digits with growth in the Utility, Consumer Staples, Consumer Discretionary, and Industrial sectors. We also achieved a low single-digit growth in the health care vertical with advancements in both payer and provider account. Consulting engagements for the fourth quarter focused on our cloud and data infrastructure, cybersecurity and AI solution capabilities.

以季對季來看，若調整本季少了 2.5 個可計費天數，消費與工業客戶呈現低個位數成長，成長來自公用事業、民生必需品、非必需消費品與工業等領域。我們在醫療保健垂直領域也達成低個位數成長，付款方與提供方客戶皆有所進展。第四季的顧問專案聚焦於我們的雲端與資料基礎設施、資安以及 AI 解決方案能力。

Let me provide a few noteworthy examples. In the fourth quarter, a prominent freight and transportation clients engaged ASGN to migrate their legacy on-premise data management center to the cloud. Our team of data experts conducted a comprehensive assessment of our clients' 25-year-old system, developed architectural road maps and consulted our client on their migration to AWS cloud.

我提供幾個值得注意的例子。在第四季，一家知名貨運與運輸客戶委託 ASGN 將其傳統的內部部署資料管理中心遷移至雲端。我們的資料專家團隊對客戶使用 25 年的系統進行全面評估，制定架構路線圖，並就其遷移至 AWS 雲端提供諮詢。

Once fully migrated to AWS, we will proceed to modernize our clients' architecture by adopting cloud-native practices that provide enhanced agility, scalability and a robust foundation to leverage advanced services such as data analytics and AI.

在完全遷移至 AWS 後，我們將進一步透過採用雲原生（cloud-native）實務來現代化客戶的架構，以提升敏捷性與可擴展性，並建立穩健基礎以運用資料分析與 AI 等進階服務。

With vast amounts of data moving to the cloud, there is an increasing need to protect sensitive enterprise information. As noted last quarter, we continue to fortify our governance, risk, and compliance, or GRC, practice, which leverages our commercial and government cybersecurity resources to support our commercial industry clients. In the fourth quarter, our GRC consultants, partner with a medical technology company to help them achieve HITRUST certification.

隨著大量資料移轉至雲端，保護敏感的企業資訊之需求日益增加。如同上季所提及，我們持續強化治理、風險與合規（GRC）業務，運用我們在商業與政府領域的資安資源來支援商業客戶。在第四季，我們的 GRC 顧問與一家醫療科技公司合作，協助其取得 HITRUST 認證。

Our client was looking to achieve this cybersecurity certification, which combines regulatory and industry standards by year-end. Our combined commercial and government team seamlessly collaborated with our clients quickly developing the domain knowledge needed to achieve the HITRUST certification and prompting our client to extend our engagement into 2025 for ongoing advisory support.

客戶希望在年底前取得此資安認證，該認證整合了法規與產業標準。我們的商業與政府團隊無縫協作，迅速建立達成 HITRUST 認證所需的領域知識，並促使客戶將合作延伸至 2025 年，以獲得持續的顧問支援。

Also during the quarter, we were engaged by a technology company to establish a center of excellence to streamline the onboarding of various retailers onto their platform. By identifying onboarding commonalities, developing best practices and addressing procedural anomalies. Our solution architects collaborated with our clients to create a gold standard for retail implementations.

此外，在本季度期間，我們受一家科技公司委託，建立卓越中心（Center of Excellence），以精簡各類零售商導入其平台的上線流程。透過辨識上線流程的共通性、制定最佳實務並處理程序異常。我們的解決方案架構師與客戶合作，為零售導入建立黃金標準。

As this project continues, we will create more automation around the monitoring compliance and securing of sensitive data. Importantly, as the creator of this center of excellence, we've become an integral part of our clients' professional services organization, assuming responsibility for the onboarding of their retail partners.

隨著此專案持續推進，我們將在合規監控與敏感資料保護方面建立更多自動化。重要的是，作為此卓越中心的建立者，我們已成為客戶專業服務組織不可或缺的一部分，並承擔其零售合作夥伴上線導入的責任。

Our IT consulting solutions create efficiencies that help our clients deliver more value to their customers while also improving outcomes for their internal teams. A Fortune 500 energy company tasked our AI consultants with developing a cutting-edge conversational GenAI chatbot, custom-built in Microsoft Azure's Cloud.

我們的 IT 顧問解決方案能創造效率，協助客戶為其客戶提供更多價值，同時也改善其內部團隊的成果。一家《財富》500 大能源公司委託我們的 AI 顧問開發一款最先進的對話式 GenAI 聊天機器人，並在 Microsoft Azure 雲端上量身打造。

This multi-agentic application provides real-time IT support via connection to back-end knowledge repositories that empower our chatbot to troubleshoot a wide range of technical IT issues in record time. When the chatbot cannot independently resolve the IT issue, it seamlessly integrates with ServiceNow to create a ticket ensuring an efficient and timely resolution.

此多代理（multi-agentic）應用程式透過連結後端知識庫提供即時 IT 支援，使我們的聊天機器人能在極短時間內排除各式各樣的技術性 IT 問題。當聊天機器人無法自行解決 IT 問題時，會無縫整合 ServiceNow 建立工單，以確保高效率且及時的解決。

While it will likely be several quarters before we see enterprise-wide applications of GenAI, many companies like our energy client, are implementing targeted AI models that focus on high-impact use cases to improve efficiency, reduce costs, and provide deeper data insights.

雖然要看到 GenAI 在企業範圍內的全面應用可能仍需數個季度，但許多公司（如我們的能源客戶）正導入聚焦於高影響力使用情境的目標型 AI 模型，以提升效率、降低成本並提供更深入的數據洞察。

As we evolve our business, we are not only upscaling our teams in the latest GenAI applications, but we're also strategically partnering with industry leaders, knowing that these tech partnerships are integral to our continued success. Thus far today, I've highlighted projects in which our consulting teams have partnered with Amazon Web Services, Microsoft Azure, and ServiceNow , each of which, amongst other tech innovators, comprise our core group of technology partners.

隨著我們推動業務演進，我們不僅讓團隊在最新的 GenAI 應用上提升能力，也在策略上與產業領導者建立合作夥伴關係，因為我們深知這些技術合作對我們持續成功至關重要。截至目前，我已強調了我們顧問團隊與 Amazon Web Services、Microsoft Azure 以及 ServiceNow 合作的專案；這些公司與其他科技創新者一起，構成我們核心的技術合作夥伴群。

As we enter 2025, I am pleased to welcome one more technology partnership to that list Workday. As I noted at the beginning of the call, ASGN signed a definitive agreement to acquire TopBloc, a leading high-growth tech-enabled Workday consultant. While Marie will provide further details on the acquisition financials, I'll focus my commentary on our strategy and market opportunity.

展望 2025 年，我很高興再新增一項技術合作夥伴：Workday。如我在電話會議一開始所提到，ASGN 已簽署最終協議，將收購 TopBloc——一家領先且高成長的科技賦能（tech-enabled）Workday 顧問公司。Marie 將進一步說明此次收購的財務細節，而我將把重點放在我們的策略與市場機會。

Recognizing a growing customer demand for ERP implementations and related services. We identified Workday, a leader in enterprise cloud applications with over 60% of Fortune 500 as customers. This led us to TopBloc a company purposefully built to partner with the Workday platform.

鑑於客戶對 ERP 導入及相關服務的需求日益增加。我們鎖定 Workday——企業雲端應用領導者，其客戶涵蓋超過 60% 的《財富》500 大企業。因此我們找到了 TopBloc，一家專為與 Workday 平台合作而打造的公司。

An industry innovator, TopBloc's team of over 500 consultants leverage a proprietary deployment model that accelerates customer time to value. In addition, by increasingly incorporating AI into its offerings TopBloc improves efficiency for its customers and differentiates its implementation processes. Beyond the initial implementation of Workday, TopBloc also provides post-deployment services that foster long-term customer relationships.

作為產業創新者，TopBloc 擁有超過 500 名顧問的團隊，運用其專有部署模型，加速客戶實現價值的時間（time to value）。此外，TopBloc 透過在其產品與服務中日益導入 AI，提升客戶效率，並使其導入流程更具差異化。除 Workday 的初始導入外，TopBloc 亦提供上線後服務，以培養長期客戶關係。

With more than 300 Workday installations over the past five years, TopBloc's consultants are well positioned to gain immediate scale in the ERP market, which Workday has identified as $160 billion in size and growing. We anticipate TopBloc's innovative solutions will seamlessly integrate with our commercial consulting customer base as well as provide significant opportunities within the federal government sector.

在過去五年完成超過 300 次 Workday 安裝導入後，TopBloc 的顧問團隊已具備在 ERP 市場迅速擴張的良好條件；Workday 將該市場規模估計為 1,600 億美元且仍在成長。我們預期 TopBloc 的創新解決方案將可與我們的商業顧問客戶基礎無縫整合，並在聯邦政府領域帶來顯著機會。

Speaking of our government customers, let's now turn to our Federal Government Segment whose services include advanced IT solutions for the Department of Defense, the Intelligence Community and other critical agencies that support our national security.

談到我們的政府客戶，接下來讓我們轉向聯邦政府事業部（Federal Government Segment）；其服務包括為國防部、情報界以及其他支援國家安全的關鍵機構提供先進 IT 解決方案。

The Federal Government segment win rate remained robust for the fourth quarter at approximately 90% for our re-competed contracts. Although revenues fell below expectations, predominantly due to the lower-than-expected software licenses, net new contract awards of $283 million put our book-to-bill 1.0x for the quarter and back to our target of 1.1x on a trailing 12-month basis. In addition to booking strength at year-end contract backlog was over $3.1 billion or a coverage ratio of 2.5x the segment's trailing 12-month revenues.

聯邦政府事業部在第四季的得標率仍然強勁，我們重新競標的合約得標率約為 90%。儘管營收低於預期，主要是因為軟體授權低於預期，但新增合約得標金額達 2.83 億美元，使本季接單出貨比（book-to-bill）為 1.0 倍，並在過去 12 個月滾動基礎上回到我們 1.1 倍的目標。除年末接單表現強勁外，合約積壓（backlog）超過 31 億美元，覆蓋比率為該事業部過去 12 個月滾動營收的 2.5 倍。

Discussions of backlog and thus, indications of future performance, lead me to a topic gaining a lot of attention of late, that of the new administration spending initiatives and in particular, the Department of Government Efficiency, or DOGE. DOGE has been tasked with modernizing federal technology and software, including upgrading network IT systems ensuring data integrity and facilitating responsible data collection, all with the end goal of maximizing governmental efficiency and productivity.

談到積壓訂單，以及因此對未來表現的指標，讓我引出近期備受關注的一個主題：新政府的支出倡議，特別是政府效率部（Department of Government Efficiency，DOGE）。DOGE 的任務是推動聯邦科技與軟體現代化，包括升級網路 IT 系統、確保資料完整性並促進負責任的資料蒐集，最終目標是最大化政府效率與生產力。

While it is still in early days, we believe that DOGE's priorities could lead to an increased emphasis on our core solutions and capabilities in AI, cybersecurity, and digital modernization services, which comprise the vast majority of our federal government revenues.

雖然目前仍處於早期階段，但我們相信 DOGE 的優先事項可能會使市場更重視我們在 AI、資安與數位現代化服務方面的核心解決方案與能力，而這些業務構成我們聯邦政府營收的絕大部分。

Alongside the solutions we offer, the agencies we support are also strongly aligned with the government's budget priorities. 2/3 of our federal government revenues are derived from contracts with Department of Defense, Intelligence Agencies and the Department of Homeland Security. The remaining 1/3 of revenues comes from more high-end IT business operations and modernization services for civilian and state and local agencies. This includes cloud, data management and cybersecurity services, all aimed at automating and modernizing governmental processes.

除了我們提供的解決方案外，我們所支援的機構也與政府預算優先事項高度一致。我們聯邦政府營收的 2/3 來自與國防部、情報機構以及國土安全部的合約。其餘 1/3 的營收來自為文職機構以及州與地方機構提供更高階的 IT 業務營運與現代化服務。其中包括雲端、資料管理與資安服務，皆以自動化並現代化政府流程為目標。

So let me provide a few examples of contracts we won during the fourth quarter that further underscore our commitment to upgrading and enhancing government IT infrastructure. For the US Navy, we were awarded additional work on an existing defense and intelligence contract in which our teams are providing data center management to two Navy Installations, one in Norfolk, Virginia and the other in Coronado, California. As part of this new fixed price contract we will support the Navy's secure global public safety network and manage their data center, which provides essential naval business functions worldwide.

接下來我舉幾個第四季得標的合約例子，以進一步凸顯我們致力於升級並強化政府 IT 基礎設施。針對美國海軍，我們在一項既有的國防與情報合約中獲得額外工作；在該合約下，我們的團隊為兩處海軍基地提供資料中心管理服務，一處位於維吉尼亞州諾福克（Norfolk），另一處位於加州科羅納多（Coronado）。作為這份新的固定價格合約的一部分，我們將支援海軍的安全全球公共安全網路並管理其資料中心；該資料中心在全球範圍內提供關鍵的海軍業務功能。

Beyond defense and cybersecurity, we are also seeing sizeable bookings to support healthcare IT modernization. In December, we were awarded our first task order under a four-year prime contract with the Department of Health and Human Services. By providing program and financial management services, we will assist the Advanced Research Projects Agency for Health to address scalability and global supply chain challenges to increase the efficacy and productivity of their future programs.

除國防與資安之外，我們也看到支援醫療保健 IT 現代化的可觀接單。在 12 月，我們在與衛生與公共服務部（Department of Health and Human Services）簽訂的四年期主承包合約下，獲得了第一份任務訂單（task order）。透過提供專案與財務管理服務，我們將協助健康先進研究計畫署（Advanced Research Projects Agency for Health）因應可擴展性與全球供應鏈挑戰，以提升其未來計畫的效能與生產力。

As we improve efficiency for our government clients, we also continue to invest in our own technological capabilities. For instance, for the past two years, we've been building a differentiated solution at the intersection of AI and cybersecurity. This solution helps organizations identify and prioritize remediation of secured vulnerabilities using advanced mathematical AI models that save our clients and our internal cybersecurity team, time and money in the protection against cyberattacks.

在提升政府客戶效率的同時，我們也持續投資自身的技術能力。例如，在過去兩年，我們一直在 AI 與資安交會處打造一項具差異化的解決方案。此解決方案運用先進的數學 AI 模型，協助組織辨識並優先處理已發現的安全弱點修補，為客戶與我們內部資安團隊在防禦網路攻擊上節省時間與成本。

In addition, during the fourth quarter, we successfully deployed an in-house AI platform that enhances our business development, capture and proposal workflows. We plan to expand the use of this platform to other operational workflows throughout 2025 in order to drive measurable gains in productivity and quality for our internal teams and our clients.

此外，在第四季，我們成功部署了一個內部 AI 平台，以強化我們的業務開發、標案捕獲（capture）與提案工作流程。我們計畫在 2025 年將此平台擴展至其他營運工作流程，以為內部團隊與客戶帶來可衡量的生產力與品質提升。

With that, I'll turn the call over to Marie to discuss the fourth-quarter results and our first quarter 2025 guidance.

接下來，我把電話會議交給 Marie，請她說明第四季業績以及我們對 2025 年第一季的指引。

Thanks, Ted. It's great to speak with everyone this afternoon.

謝謝你，Ted。很高興今天下午能與各位交流。

For the fourth quarter, revenues totaled $985 million, a decrease of 8.3% year over year, but essentially flat to the third quarter on the same number of billable days. Revenue from the Commercial Segment were $692.7 million, a decrease of 7.5% as compared to the prior year. Assignment revenues totaled $408 million, a decline of 15% year over year due to continued softness in the more cyclical portion of our commercial business.

第四季營收合計為9.85億美元，年減8.3%，但在可計費天數相同的情況下，與第三季基本持平。商業事業部營收為6.927億美元，較去年同期下降7.5%。派遣業務營收合計為4.08億美元，年減15%，主因我們商業業務中較具景氣循環性的部分持續疲弱。

Revenue for the commercial consulting, the largest of our high-margin revenue streams outpaced our expectations and totaled $284.7 million, up 6% year over year and flat sequentially. Revenues from our Federal Government Segment were $292.3 million, a decrease of 10.2% year over year. When we prepared our guidance for the fourth quarter, we anticipated we would have a consistent level of software licenses year over year.

商業顧問服務（我們高毛利營收來源中規模最大者）的營收優於預期，達2.847億美元，年增6%，且與前一季持平。聯邦政府事業部營收為2.923億美元，年減10.2%。在我們制定第四季財測指引時，我們原先預期軟體授權的水準將與去年同期一致。

As Ted noted, license revenues were lower than our expectations by approximately $20 million to $30 million for the quarter. Lower license revenues as well as the delay in certain research and development projects due to the continuing resolution led to the revenue shortfall for the quarter. Our Commercial Segment on the other hand outperformed our expectations.

如Ted所提，當季授權營收較我們預期低約2,000萬至3,000萬美元。授權營收較低，以及因持續性決議（continuing resolution）導致部分研發專案延後，造成當季營收未達預期。另一方面，我們的商業事業部表現優於預期。

Turning to margins. Gross margin for the fourth quarter of 2024 was 29%, an increase of 60 basis points from the fourth quarter of last year and exceeded our expectations. Gross margin for the Commercial Segment was 32.6%, up 50 basis points year over year, reflecting a higher mix of consulting revenues as well as margin expansion in these revenues. Gross margin for the Federal Government Segment was 20.5%, up 60 basis points year over year, primarily due to higher mix of fixed price and time and materials contracts.

接著談毛利率。2024年第四季毛利率為29%，較去年第四季增加60個基點，並高於我們的預期。商業事業部毛利率為32.6%，年增50個基點，反映顧問服務營收占比提高，以及該等營收的毛利率擴張。聯邦政府事業部毛利率為20.5%，年增60個基點，主要因固定價格合約以及工時與材料（time and materials）合約的組合占比提高。

SG&A expense for the quarter was $197.9 million compared to $203.6 million in the fourth quarter of 2023. SG&A expense also included $1.9 million in acquisition, integration and strategic planning expenses not included in our guidance estimates.

本季SG&A費用為1.979億美元，較2023年第四季的2.036億美元下降。SG&A費用亦包含190萬美元的併購、整合及策略規劃費用，該費用未納入我們的指引估計。

For the fourth quarter, net income was $42.4 million. Adjusted EBITDA was $109.7 million and adjusted EBITDA margin was 11.1%. Adjusted EBITDA margin also exceeded our guidance expectations for the quarter due to the outperformance of our Commercial Segment and a higher mix of commercial revenues. In addition to this favorable business mix, we saw the expansion of margins within the commercial consulting revenues for the quarter.

第四季淨利為4,240萬美元。調整後EBITDA為1.097億美元，調整後EBITDA利潤率為11.1%。由於商業事業部表現超出預期且商業營收占比提高，當季調整後EBITDA利潤率亦高於我們的指引預期。除上述有利的業務組合外，本季我們也看到商業顧問服務營收的利潤率擴張。

At quarter end, cash and cash equivalent was $205.2 million. We had full availability under our $500 million senior secured revolver and our net leverage ratio was 1.86x. Free cash flow was $88.9 million for the fourth quarter, a conversion rate of approximately 81% of adjusted EBITDA. In the quarter, we deployed $43.9 million to repurchase 0.5 million shares at an average price of $90.45.

截至季末，現金及約當現金為2.052億美元。我們在5億美元的優先擔保循環信貸額度（revolver）下仍有全額可用額度，淨槓桿比率為1.86倍。第四季自由現金流為8,890萬美元，約為調整後EBITDA的81%轉換率。本季我們投入4,390萬美元回購50萬股，平均回購價格為90.45美元。

On a full-year basis, free cash flow totaled $364.7 million, also a conversion rate of approximately 81% of adjusted EBITDA. With active share repurchase in the first three quarters of the year, even with the slowdown in Q4 repurchases in advance of the due diligence for the TopBloc acquisition, in 2024, we deployed $327.2 million to repurchase 3.5 million shares at an average price of $94.06. We have approximately $529 million remaining under our $750 million share repurchase authorization.

以全年計，自由現金流合計為3.647億美元，同樣約為調整後EBITDA的81%轉換率。由於前三季積極回購，即使在進行TopBloc收購案盡職調查前，第四季回購放緩，2024年我們仍投入3.272億美元回購350萬股，平均回購價格為94.06美元。我們在7.5億美元的庫藏股回購授權下尚餘約5.29億美元可用額度。

A strong free cash flow provides a strategic advantage that enables ASGN to fund key growth initiatives, opportunistically repurchase shares and invest in strategic M&A, all while maintaining a healthy balance sheet. By following a disciplined and balanced approach to capital allocation, we can invest in high-return opportunities and prudently manage our leverage, driving sustainable long-term value to our shareholders.

強勁的自由現金流帶來策略優勢，使ASGN得以資助關鍵成長計畫、伺機回購股份並投資策略性併購，同時維持健全的資產負債表。透過遵循嚴謹且均衡的資本配置方式，我們能投資於高報酬機會並審慎管理槓桿，為股東創造可持續的長期價值。

As Ted mentioned earlier, we signed a definitive purchase agreement to acquire TopBloc for $340 million, consisting of 90% cash and 10% equity. The acquisition, which remains subject to HSR approval, is anticipated to close late in the first quarter. Post close, we anticipate our net leverage ratio will be approximately 2.4x after borrowing approximately $200 million on the revolver related to the acquisition. With our acquisition of TopBloc, we will begin to allocate free cash flow towards paying down revolver.

如Ted先前提到，我們已簽署具約束力的最終收購協議，以3.40億美元收購TopBloc，其中90%以現金支付、10%以股權支付。該收購案仍須取得HSR核准，預計將於第一季末完成交割。交割後，因本次收購將自循環信貸額度借款約2億美元，我們預期淨槓桿比率約為2.4倍。完成收購TopBloc後，我們將開始把自由現金流配置用於償還循環信貸。

Turning to guidance. Our financial estimates for the first quarter of 2025 are set forth in the earnings release and supplemental materials. These estimates are based on current market conditions and assumes 62 billable days in the first quarter, which is 0.75 fewer than a year ago period and one day more than the fourth quarter.

接著談財測指引。我們對2025年第一季的財務估計已載於財報新聞稿與補充資料中。這些估計係基於目前市場狀況，並假設第一季有62個可計費天數，較去年同期少0.75天，且較第四季多1天。

Our first quarter guidance incorporates three main considerations. First, while business optimism is improving, we expect market conditions and demand for our services in the first quarter of 2025 will be similar to that of the fourth quarter of 2024.

我們的第一季指引納入三項主要考量。第一，儘管企業樂觀情緒正在改善，我們預期2025年第一季的市場狀況與對我們服務的需求，將與2024年第四季相近。

Second, with regards to EBITDA margin, the first quarter typically sees approximately 100-basis-point decrease sequentially related to the annual payroll tax reset.

第二，就EBITDA利潤率而言，第一季通常會因年度薪資稅重置而出現約100個基點的季減。

Third, our first quarter guidance does not include contribution from TopBloc. For the full-year 2025, TopBloc is expected to generate approximately $150 million of revenue which represents year-over-year revenue growth in excess of 20%. We anticipate roughly nine months of TopBloc full-year revenues will be incorporated in our 2025 financials given the timing of the close. TopBloc also anticipates EBITDA margin in the high teens for 2025.

第三，我們的第一季指引未包含TopBloc的貢獻。就2025年全年而言，TopBloc預期將創造約1.50億美元營收，代表年增幅超過20%。考量交割時點，我們預期2025年財務數字將納入約九個月的TopBloc全年營收。TopBloc亦預期2025年的EBITDA利潤率將落在十幾%的高端區間。

With this background, for Q1 2025, we are estimating revenues of $950 million to $970 million net income of $27.8 million to $30.7 million and adjusted EBITDA of $91 million to $95 million and adjusted EBITDA margin of 9.6% to 9.8%.

在此背景下，針對2025年第一季，我們預估營收為9.50億至9.70億美元，淨利為2,780萬至3,070萬美元，調整後EBITDA為9,100萬至9,500萬美元，調整後EBITDA利潤率為9.6%至9.8%。

Thank you. I'll now turn the call over to Ted for closing remarks.

謝謝。接下來我把電話會議交回給Ted作結語。

Thanks, Marie.

謝謝你，Marie。

As I mentioned at the start of the call, at the beginning of March, our current President, Rand Blazer, will be transitioning to the role of Executive Vice Chairman. In Rand's place as President, we are thrilled to welcome Shiv Iyer, formerly of Accenture.

如我在會議一開始提到的，三月初，我們現任總裁Rand Blazer將轉任執行副董事長。接替Rand擔任總裁一職的，我們非常高興歡迎曾任職於Accenture的Shiv Iyer加入。

Over the past 12 years, Rand has played a pivotal role in driving ASGN's impressive growth and transformation. His leadership in conjunction with our broader executive team has been key in evolving ASGN from a diversified staffing player to a top-tier provider of higher-end, high-value IT services.

過去12年來，Rand在推動ASGN令人矚目的成長與轉型方面扮演了關鍵角色。他與我們更廣泛的高階管理團隊共同領導，對於將ASGN從多元化的人力派遣業者，演進為提供更高階、高價值IT服務的一流供應商，至關重要。

Rand has not only spearheaded our go-to-market strategy, but he has helped to elevate the quality of our broader leadership team, prioritizing their development and success. As both my long-term colleague and close friend, I'm very grateful for Rand's continued involvement with ASGN and for the strong foundation he has helped build for our company. In Rand's new role, he will advise ASGN on key strategic initiatives while helping ensure a seamless handover and leadership to Shiv.

Rand不僅主導我們的市場進入策略，也協助提升我們更廣泛領導團隊的素質，並優先投入其培育與成功。作為我長期的同事與摯友，我非常感謝Rand持續參與ASGN，也感謝他為公司奠定的堅實基礎。在Rand的新職務中，他將就關鍵策略計畫為ASGN提供建議，同時協助確保順利交接並支持Shiv的領導。

Shiv brings over two decades of consulting experience to ASGN, having much recently led Accenture's Consulting and Industry X Solutions across the Americas. His experience leading large-scale consulting businesses in combination with the industry and M&A expertise, make an excellent fit for ASGN as we continue to move up the IT services pyramid. I am confident that Shiv will help propel our company to new heights, and we are very excited to have him on board. We look forward to having Shiv join us on our first quarter 2025 earnings call in April.

Shiv 為 ASGN 帶來逾二十年的顧問諮詢經驗，且不久前才領導埃森哲（Accenture）在美洲地區的顧問諮詢與 Industry X 解決方案業務。他在領導大型顧問諮詢業務方面的經驗，結合其產業與併購（M&A）專業，使其非常適合 ASGN，因為我們持續向 IT 服務金字塔的更高層邁進。我有信心 Shiv 將協助推動公司再創高峰，我們也非常興奮他能加入我們。我們期待 Shiv 在四月參與我們 2025 年第一季財報電話會議。

As we wrap up our prepared remarks, I'd like to reflect on some of the most important points we covered today. We are committed to building ASGN for the future and continue to position our business towards higher-end, high-value IT consulting services and solutions. We are achieving our long-term goals through the expansion of our IT consulting revenues, bookings and margins, the introduction of new leadership as just discussed, and the addition of strategic tuck-in acquisitions such as TopBloc, those solutions can be sold across our commercial and government customer base.

在結束我們事先準備的發言之際，我想回顧一下今天所涵蓋的一些最重要重點。我們致力於為未來打造 ASGN，並持續將業務定位於更高端、更高價值的 IT 顧問諮詢服務與解決方案。我們正透過擴大 IT 顧問諮詢收入、接單（bookings）與利潤率、如同剛才所討論引進新領導團隊，以及加入如 TopBloc 這類策略性補強型併購（tuck-in acquisitions）來達成長期目標；這些解決方案可銷售至我們的商業與政府客戶基礎。

Additionally, we maintain a robust portfolio of enterprise and federal government clients in six key industries to whom we offer innovative solutions aligned with a demand for cost savings and efficiency. Of note, we demonstrated strength in the TMT vertical throughout 2024. And as we exited the year, we began to see improvements with our big banking clients, which are some of the biggest investors in information technology. As business confidence steadily increases, we are certain that we have strategically positioned our business for sustained growth.

此外，我們在六個關鍵產業中維持強健的企業與聯邦政府客戶組合，並向其提供符合成本節省與效率需求的創新解決方案。值得一提的是，我們在 2024 年全年於 TMT 垂直領域展現出強勁表現。而在年底之際，我們也開始看到大型銀行客戶的改善跡象，這些客戶是資訊科技領域最大的投資者之一。隨著企業信心穩步提升，我們確信已在策略上將業務定位於可持續成長。

Before opening up the call to questions, I'd like to extend our deepest sympathies to our Los Angeles teammates and their families impacted by the recent wildfires. Our thoughts are with all of those impacted and we are committed to supporting the affected communities during this difficult time.

在開放提問之前，我想向近期野火影響到的洛杉磯同仁及其家人致上最深切的慰問。我們的心與所有受影響的人同在，並承諾在這段艱難時期支持受災社區。

I also want to thank everyone at ASGN for your dedication and hard work this past year. Together, we move forward into the new year with a collective determination to advance ASGN toward even greater success.

我也要感謝 ASGN 的每一位同仁在過去一年中的投入與辛勤付出。我們將以共同的決心邁入新的一年，推動 ASGN 走向更大的成功。

Thank you again for joining our fourth quarter and full-year 2024 call. Operator, please open the call to questions.

再次感謝各位參與我們 2024 年第四季與全年電話會議。接線員，請開放提問。

(Operator Instructions) Jeff Silber, BMO Capital Markets.

(接線員指示) Jeff Silber，BMO 資本市場。

I wanted to focus first on federal government, not surprising. Can we get a little bit more color in terms of the types of conversations that you're having with folks? I'm just wondering, I know it's still early. But what are they saying about what the potential impact might be on the new administration?

我想先聚焦在聯邦政府業務，這並不令人意外。能否請你們多提供一些背景，談談你們與相關人士的對話大致是哪些類型？我只是想了解一下，我知道現在仍然很早。但他們對新政府可能帶來的潛在影響是怎麼說的？

Yes, Jeff, thanks for the question. I think, frankly, everyone in that marketplace is trying to figure out exactly what the impact may be. Even our clients who are still trying to learn, there's just a lot going on and things are breaking here by the hour and the day.

好的，Jeff，謝謝你的提問。坦白說，我認為那個市場的每個人都在試著釐清影響究竟會是什麼。甚至我們的客戶也仍在摸索，因為事情很多，而且情勢幾乎以每小時、每天的速度在變化。

If I sit back and look at our portfolio of business, if you think about services and cyber, AI, data cloud, IT modernization, those are all things that the government is in high need of and it's going to be durable here. And while there may be some bumps in the road here week-to-week, month-to-month, quarter-to-quarter as we work through what's going on with the new administration in DOGE. Obviously, the answer for the federal government long term is to modernize IT systems and take advantage of technology to be more efficient.

如果我退一步看我們的業務組合，像是服務與資安、AI、資料雲、IT 現代化，這些都是政府高度需要的領域，而且需求會相當持久。雖然在我們因應新政府在 DOGE 的動向時，可能會在每週、每月、每季出現一些顛簸。但顯然，從長期來看，聯邦政府的解方就是讓 IT 系統現代化，並善用科技提升效率。

And then if you think about our customer set, DoD Intel, Department of Homeland Security and Justice is about two-thirds of our revenue. If you add to that the cyber work we do in Commercial and SLED out of the federal government units, all of a sudden, you're at greater than 75%.

再來，如果你看我們的客戶組合，國防部與情報單位（DoD Intel）、國土安全部與司法部約占我們營收的三分之二。若再加上我們在商業與州/地方/教育（SLED）領域、由聯邦政府單位延伸出去所做的資安工作，合計就超過 75%。

And again, we think those things are fairly durable. But I would not ignore the fact that there's a lot of arm waving going on in that marketplace right now. And so the key for us is to stay close to our customer and to help them, if you will, in terms of bringing services that help automate use technology, modernize their operations so that they can ultimately protect us and also be more efficient and productive.

同樣地，我們認為這些需求相當具有持久性。但我也不會忽視目前那個市場確實有很多「虛張聲勢」的動作。因此對我們而言，關鍵是緊貼客戶，並協助他們提供能夠自動化、運用科技、現代化其營運的服務，讓他們最終能保護我們，同時也更有效率、更具生產力。

All right. That's helpful. I'm just curious, though, beyond the -- I guess, you called it arm-waving, have you seen any slowdown either in terms of awarding contracts or paying contractors?

好。這很有幫助。不過我想再追問一下，除了——我想你稱之為「虛張聲勢」之外，你們是否已看到任何放緩，例如合約授予或對承包商付款方面？

I'm just wondering with all the disruption that's going down there, if it's just business as usual, if there's been some issues already?

我只是想知道，在那邊這麼多干擾之下，是否仍一切照常，或是已經出現一些問題？

Yes. So I think it's too early to say, is there a slowdown in payments? We haven't seen that. So I would say no sign of that right now. As it relates to new awards, it's a mixed bag, if you will, by area of the government and customer.

是的。我認為現在要說付款是否放緩還太早。我們尚未看到那種情況。所以我會說目前沒有那方面的跡象。至於新案授予（new awards），可以說依政府不同領域與不同客戶而呈現好壞參半。

We've actually won some things here in the recent couple, three weeks, which we were waiting on, which is a positive sign.

事實上，我們在最近兩三週贏得了一些我們一直在等待的案子，這是正面的訊號。

I think in other areas, obviously, there's an edict out there in certain agencies to pause on the award of new work or new RFPs, and so we're watching it closely. So I'd say it's a little bit agency by agency, but we're seeing a little bit of some new awards and some slowdowns.

我認為在其他領域，顯然某些機構有指令要求暫停授予新工作或發布新的 RFP，因此我們正密切關注。所以我會說這有點是逐機構而定，但我們同時看到一些新案授予，也看到一些放緩。

Trevor Romeo, William Blair.

Trevor Romeo，William Blair。

First, I just want to say, Rand, been great working with you, best of luck in the new role. I also look forward to working with Shiv as well.

首先我想說，Rand，和你合作很愉快，祝你在新職務一切順利。我也期待與 Shiv 合作。

Then in terms of questions, first one is on TopBloc. It seems like it will be nicely accretive to growth in margins. Just kind of wondering, from a strategy perspective, would love any thoughts you have specifically on the Workday ecosystem, how you evaluated the long-term opportunity and kind of the strategic importance there and then maybe what kind of potential synergy opportunities could you see materializing with your existing business?

接著就問題而言，第一個是關於 TopBloc。看起來它將對成長與利潤率有不錯的增益（accretive）。我想從策略角度請教，特別是針對 Workday 生態系，你們如何評估長期機會以及其策略重要性？另外，與你們既有業務之間，可能有哪些協同效益機會會逐步實現？

Great. Well, I'll start and I'll let Rand jump in. First of all, you can't say goodbye to Rand yet, he's obviously is going to be here, which we're excited about. And I think it's a combination of Rand being here with all his institutional knowledge and deep experience in the sector, combined with Shiv now coming with his background and our existing leadership team across our commercial and federal units, and we're just really adding strength there, if you will, to the leadership team as we go forward.

很好。我先回答，然後讓 Rand 補充。首先，你還不能跟 Rand 道別，他顯然仍會在這裡，我們也很期待。我認為這是 Rand 留任、帶著他對公司深厚的制度性知識與產業經驗，再加上 Shiv 以其背景加入，以及我們現有橫跨商業與聯邦單位的領導團隊，等於是在未來前進時，進一步強化我們的領導陣容。

On the TopBloc question, we talk about this as we communicate with you when you think about capital allocation, M&A the right strategic M&A has been the highest and best return of invested capital for our shareholders. We still see that and see it in this case.

關於 TopBloc 的問題，當我們與各位溝通資本配置時也提到：在併購（M&A）方面，正確且具策略性的併購一直是為股東帶來最高、最佳投資資本報酬的方式。我們仍然這麼看，而且在這個案例中也同樣如此。

We have shopping list, if you will, which are solution capabilities that we see our customers are in need of today and in the future. So that's a great go by, if you will, for what needs to be at the top of our list. And enterprise system capabilities specifically in Workday was one of the few things at the top of the list.

我們有一份「採購清單」（如果你願意這麼說），也就是我們看到客戶在當下以及未來所需要的解決方案能力。所以這是一個很好的參考依據（如果你願意這麼說），用來判斷哪些需求應該排在我們清單的最前面。而企業系統能力——特別是 Workday——就是清單最前端的少數幾項之一。

So as always, we're working in the market, developing pipeline in these areas and think that there's a lot of room to go for TopBloc both in the mid-market, which is a lot of its customer base. And in the enterprise, which is a lot of our customer base in commercial and for the federal government, which is easily a big initiative of Workday overall.

因此一如既往，我們在市場上持續耕耘，在這些領域建立商機管道，並且認為 TopBloc 在中型市場（這是其很大一部分客戶基礎）仍有很大的成長空間。同時在企業市場也有很大空間——這是我們在商業客戶以及聯邦政府客戶中的重要客戶基礎，而對 Workday 整體而言，聯邦政府更是一項很大的推動重點。

I think Workday here and their last earnings reported about 15% growth year over year. So there's certainly a strong demand for their software.

我認為 Workday 在最近一次財報中公布年增約 15% 的成長。因此他們的軟體確實有強勁的需求。

And then I think last, I would just say, if you think about the world in terms of where we're going with data and AI. The ERP systems house both financials and human capital management really own the data set, if you will, inside of our large enterprise accounts. And so to deploy AI effectively across an organization, you've got to have success and expertise around the data and the enterprise system.

最後我想說的是，如果你從資料與 AI 的發展方向來看這個世界。ERP 系統同時承載財務與人力資本管理，某種程度上（如果你願意這麼說）掌握了我們大型企業客戶內部的資料集。因此，要在整個組織有效部署 AI，你必須在資料與企業系統方面取得成功並具備專業能力。

And our view of data into AI where we'd like to go with it we felt like this was an important capability add, if you will, in that way as well.

而我們對於從資料走向 AI 的看法、以及我們希望推進的方向，我們認為這也是一項重要的能力補強（如果你願意這麼說）。

So it was really all of those things. And then as we always say, it has to be accretive to growth, which this obviously is, it has to be accretive to our margin profile, which is this definitely is. And we think that -- we think we've got one of the best businesses in the Eco Workday system to partner with now, and it's only going to be a much bigger business in the future because of our combined efforts.

所以其實就是上述所有因素。另外如同我們一貫所說，這必須對成長具有增益（accretive），而這筆交易顯然符合；也必須對我們的利潤率結構具有增益，而這也絕對符合。我們認為——我們認為我們已經擁有 Workday 生態系中最優秀的業務之一可作為合作夥伴，而在我們共同努力之下，未來它只會成為更大的業務。

Excellent. And then my second one, I guess, just maybe one on sort of the overall demand, client budget environment in commercial. I think, Ted, you did mention the increase in business confidence, I think we've all kind of seen in the last few months.

很好。那我第二個問題，可能是關於整體需求、商業端客戶預算環境。Ted，我想你確實提到近幾個月商業信心有所提升，我想我們大家都有看到。

So are you starting -- there's still a lot of uncertainty out there, but are you starting to see any initial signs of improving activity? More willingness to take meetings? Anything like that. Nice acceleration in your bookings this quarter. Is it just too early to say?

所以你們是否開始——外部仍有很多不確定性，但你們是否開始看到一些活動改善的初步跡象？更願意安排會議？或類似的情況。你們本季的接單（bookings）加速得不錯。這是否只是還太早、無法下定論？

Or are you actually starting to see any encouraging signs at this point?

還是你們此刻確實開始看到一些令人鼓舞的跡象？

Yes. I'll let Rand take that one. Rand, do you want to take that?

是的。我讓 Rand 來回答這題。Rand，你要回答嗎？

Well, listen, I think we do. We look at a number of markers, we look at backlog, we look at our pipeline, we look at the bookings and where the bookings are coming. We look at the sectors, which Ted pointed out in the earnings call, where we're seeing sequential growth. We look at, generally, our activity levels and the flow of business, which maybe not has yet translated into revenue, but we can see the precursors for that.

嗯，聽著，我認為我們確實有看到。我們會看很多指標：看在手訂單（backlog）、看我們的商機管道（pipeline）、看接單（bookings）以及接單來源。我們也會看各個產業別——Ted 在財報電話會議中指出——哪些產業出現了季對季成長。我們也會整體觀察我們的活動水準與業務流量；這些可能尚未轉化為營收，但我們能看到其前導訊號。

So that's what gives us confidence. And it's coming in certain sectors, as Ted mentioned, that we know are good bellwethers for IT spend, financial services, one of them.

所以這些就是讓我們有信心的原因。而且成長來自某些產業，如 Ted 提到的，我們知道這些是 IT 支出很好的風向球，例如金融服務就是其中之一。

So does that give you a sense, Trevor, of the plethora of things we look at?

所以，Trevor，這是否讓你了解我們會看的各式各樣的事項？

Yes. Thank you Rand, that was helpful. I really appreciate it guys.

是的。謝謝你 Rand，很有幫助。各位我真的很感謝。

Joseph Vafi, Canaccord.

Joseph Vafi，Canaccord。

Thanks for the questions, and Rand, congrats. We're going to miss you on these calls and Shiv welcome on board as well.

謝謝提問，Rand，恭喜你。我們會想念你參與這些電話會議，Shiv 也歡迎加入。

Maybe we kind of -- I know we've been talking about financial services here for a bit. Maybe we drill down in it a little bit. And maybe it would be interesting kind of at a high level, I mean, you're kind of talking about big banks, if we kind of rewind the clock to kind of the pre-normalized environment we were in, kind of where was big bank mix in that vertical versus where it is now.

或許我們可以——我知道我們談金融服務談了一陣子。也許我們再深入一點。從較高層次來看，因為你們在談大型銀行；如果我們把時間倒回到先前那個「尚未正常化」的環境，大型銀行在該垂直領域的占比大概是多少，相較於現在又是多少。

Just trying to get a feel for kind of how much upside there is back to a normalized level there? And then I have a follow-up.

我只是想感受一下，回到正常化水準大概還有多少上行空間？然後我還有一個追問。

So Joe, if you think back, obviously, when we got into '22 as things begin to decelerate, Big Tech was the first one down, financial services and big banks not too far thereafter, both positioning more intensively, obviously, for what they thought might be a recession in the economy.

Joe，如果你回想一下，顯然當我們進入 2022 年、各項動能開始放緩時，大型科技（Big Tech）最先下滑，金融服務與大型銀行也不久之後跟著下來；兩者都更積極地調整部署，顯然是為了因應他們認為經濟可能出現衰退的情境。

Tech during the course of 2024 is returned. Now financial services and big banks look like there, have bottomed out, and we're starting to see a little bit of a tick up here. It typically of our commercial business. I don't have this in front of me, Rand, but it would have been 20% to 25% of the revenue mix -- about.

科技在 2024 年的過程中已經回來了。現在金融服務與大型銀行看起來已經觸底，我們開始看到一些回升的跡象。就我們的商業業務而言，我手邊沒有數字，Rand，但大概會是營收組合的 20% 到 25%——大約如此。

Correct. Estimate in the low 20s -- low-20s.

沒錯。估計在 20% 出頭——20% 出頭的低段。

Right. And so it's obviously in the high teens right now of commercial, Joe, just to put it in perspective and 15% of the total ASGN revenues. So maybe that gives you an order of magnitude.

對。所以 Joe，為了讓你有個概念，目前在商業端大概是 10% 高段（high teens），而占 ASGN 總營收約 15%。所以也許這能讓你掌握大致的量級。

Sure. That's very helpful. And then secondly, kind of just looking at the business a little more broadly. Obviously, it's great to see the consulting bookings continue showing resilience.

了解。這非常有幫助。第二個問題，從更廣泛的角度看這項業務。很高興看到顧問服務的接單持續展現韌性。

But kind of looking at the broader business, it kind of feels like maybe we should have seen some of the assignment business, which is a leading indicator, start to have a little more sequential strength. Just wondering if you're seeing kind of a structural change in the market out there where maybe firms are going to be -- your clients are going to maybe opt for more consulting revenue and not kind of lean on the assignment side of the business as much in this cycle versus others.

但從更廣泛的業務來看，感覺我們或許應該已經看到派遣/指派（assignment）業務——它是一個領先指標——開始出現更強的季對季動能。我想請教你們是否看到市場出現某種結構性變化：也許企業——你們的客戶——在這一輪景氣循環中，會更傾向選擇顧問服務收入，而不像以往那樣那麼依賴派遣/指派端的業務。

Yes. Well, Joe, I mean, obviously, we've talked about this a lot in prior cycles. It's been the IT staffing and the creative digital marketing staffing that's let us up here as there's been a return.

是的。嗯，Joe，顯然我們在先前的循環中已經談過很多次。一直以來帶動我們回升的是 IT 人力派遣，以及創意數位行銷的人力派遣。

The rep flow would tell you as it kind of built through the fourth quarter that the, I'll call it, the need from clients is there, but there's a little bit of lead lag to it. So we just haven't quite seen that yet.

從代表（rep）的流量來看，隨著第四季逐步建立起來，我會說客戶的需求確實存在，但其中有一點時間上的領先/落後差。所以我們還沒有完全看到它反映出來。

And then structurally has been changed. I mean I think we'll have to watch that and see -- I don't know, Rand, I don't think that's our sense that anything structurally has changed. But obviously, we're positioned for any kind of change. I mean we're here to serve them both on this -- on the IT staffing and creative digital side and on the consulting side.

然後在結構上已經有所改變。我的意思是，我想我們必須觀察並看看——我不知道，Rand，我不認為我們的感覺是有任何結構性改變。但顯然，我們已為任何形式的變化做好準備。我的意思是，我們在這裡同時為他們提供——在 IT 人才派遣與創意數位端，以及在顧問諮詢端的服務。

Yes. And Ted, you may remind people that we typically see a fall-off of business and revenue as we go from Q4 to Q1 of about 4%, I think we've said many times in the past. So some of that is just people ending in the first year -- the previous year of work, and then you have to gear up and start the second year, the following year.

是的。而且 Ted，你可以提醒大家，我們通常會看到業務量與營收從第四季到第一季下滑約 4%，我想我們過去已多次提到。所以其中一部分只是人們在第一年——前一年的工作結束，然後你必須重新整備並啟動第二年、也就是接下來一年的工作。

So we're going through that lead lag process right now. But I think as you said, Ted, our rep flow is generally a positive, particularly in certain sectors. And so --

所以我們現在正經歷那個領先與落後的過程。但我想如你所說，Ted，我們的需求流（req flow）整體而言是正向的，特別是在某些產業。所以--

Yes. And I think that's a good thing to point out broadly from -- if you went back and looked at last year, Q4 to Q1, if you look at this year, Q4 to Q1, something in the low to mid-single digits as a normal kind of seasonable -- we're going to reset from the fourth quarter into the first.

是的。而且我認為，從更廣的角度指出這點是件好事——如果你回頭看去年，從第四季到第一季；再看今年，從第四季到第一季，低到中個位數百分比是正常的季節性——我們會從第四季重置到第一季。

Kevin McVeigh, UBS.

Kevin McVeigh，瑞銀（UBS）。

Great. Rand, thank you for your service -- and continued service. I wanted to, I guess, a couple of quick questions. Just on the TopBloc acquisition, and I just did kind of some quick math. I don't know if the revenue is about $150 million, and I think you said they have 500 consultants, does that imply maybe a bill rate of about $150 -- $200 an hour.

很好。Rand，感謝你的服務——以及持續的服務。我想問幾個簡短問題。先談 TopBloc 的收購，我剛做了些快速計算。我不知道營收是否大約是 1.5 億美元，而我想你說他們有 500 位顧問，這是否意味著計費率大概是每小時 150——200 美元。

Is that a fair way to think about it in terms of what the bill rates go off at?

用這種方式來理解計費率大概落在哪個區間，這樣想合理嗎？

Look, that would be the math of it, Kevin. We're not going to disclose bill rates. And so not today or going forward, but obviously, there's the math there that you could do, and it's -- you're probably in that range.

Kevin，你那樣算在數學上是對的。我們不會披露計費率。所以今天不會、未來也不會；但顯然，你可以做那個計算，而且——你大概就在那個範圍內。

Okay. And then I guess with the acquisition and the leverage going on the balance sheet, does that impact the buyback at all going forward?

好的。那我想問，隨著這次收購以及資產負債表上的槓桿上升，這會不會影響未來的庫藏股回購？

Well, look, I think we, obviously, at today's size and scale, don't have to exclusively follow one path. I mean we'll be focused on deleveraging. I think Marie, our leverage post transaction is...

嗯，我想以我們今天的規模與體量，顯然不必只能走單一路徑。我的意思是，我們會專注於去槓桿。我想 Marie，我們交易後的槓桿是……

2.4x.

2.4 倍。

2.4 on a net basis, right?

淨額基礎上是 2.4 倍，對嗎？

That's right.

沒錯。

So it's modest based on where we've been historically, we've always said that when we're below 2.5, we can pursue whatever the next capital allocation activity is, whether that's repurchasing shares or it's an acquisition. So we've only got a couple of quarters here of needed free cash flow to work into the delever. So I would expect you'll see us pursue, but it will depend on what's the best allocation of that next dollar capital.

所以相較於我們歷史水準，這是溫和的；我們一直說，當我們低於 2.5 倍時，就可以推進下一個資本配置活動，不論是回購股票或是進行收購。所以我們只需要幾個季度的自由現金流來推動去槓桿。因此我預期你會看到我們採取行動，但這將取決於下一美元資本的最佳配置是什麼。

That's helpful. And I guess in terms of the Federal business that you have, it sounds like if there was anything relative to expectations in the quarter that didn't come in? Was it the license sales on the federal side? Is that right? And just remind us what percentage of it?

這很有幫助。另外我想就你們的聯邦業務而言，聽起來本季若有任何相對於預期未達成的部分？是聯邦端的授權（license）銷售嗎？是這樣嗎？再提醒我們一下它占比是多少？

Can you just remind us what percentage of the federal business is licensed versus managed services versus consulting?

你能再提醒我們，聯邦業務中授權、託管服務（managed services）與顧問諮詢各占多少比例嗎？

Yes. So we don't release that number, Kevin, but the miss on revenues was solely that unexpected realization of the software licenses, it was specific to a client. It was $20 million to $30 million of revenue and so obviously, we still delivered on the bottom line. That stuff carries very little margin to it. So the software license stuff can be a little whimsical, but that was the only thing behind the miss on the revenue side.

是的。Kevin，我們不會公布那個數字；但營收未達預期完全是因為軟體授權的實現（realization）出乎意料，且是特定客戶所致。那是 2,000 萬到 3,000 萬美元的營收，因此顯然我們在獲利端仍有達成。那類項目幾乎沒有毛利。所以軟體授權有時會有點難以預測，但營收端未達預期的原因只有這一項。

And again, was that a federal license?

再確認一次，那是聯邦端的授權嗎？

Correct. There are licenses associated with some of our AI work, some of our cyberwork, some of our other IT modernization work. And so the client determines when they're going to pull on those as needed. They're part of the implementation, and then they're a part of the -- obviously, the ongoing use of the system.

正確。我們的一些 AI 工作、一些資安工作，以及其他 IT 現代化工作，都會搭配一些授權。因此客戶會依需要決定何時要拉動（pull）那些授權。它們是導入的一部分，然後也——顯然——是系統持續使用的一部分。

Understood. And again, not to -- and this would be my last question, I've asked a lot of questions. But has that had anything to do with some of the pause at the federal level? Totally independent...

了解。再一次，不是要——這會是我最後一個問題，我問了很多。但那是否與聯邦層級的一些暫停有任何關係？完全獨立……

Not related.

沒有關係。

And Ted you should probably mentioned -- Ted, you should probably mention that sometimes the contracting officer prefers to go direct to the vendor for those licenses and going through some intermediary like us. And we see that maybe more of the trends than anything.

而且 Ted 你可能應該提到——Ted，你可能應該提到，有時候合約官員（contracting officer）更偏好直接向供應商購買那些授權，而不是透過像我們這樣的中介。而我們看到的趨勢可能更多是這個，而不是其他因素。

And what would the that? Rand, whether they go direct or through you?

那會是什麼？Rand，是指他們直接買或透過你們？

They could -- they could save a little bit of margin perhaps on the pass-through or it's really a question of how they want to buy and maybe who the different procuring agents are.

他們可能——他們或許能在轉售（pass-through）上省一點毛利；或者其實是他們想怎麼買、以及不同採購代理人是誰的問題。

What could be workload internal workload. I mean there are a lot of factors that probably play into how they make their decisions. But I think to go back to the point, I don't think you can read into it, they've decided to go directly by the license instead of through us. That's what's happened in the recent and I don't think that's a matter of any slowdown or anything else. It's just a different path for procurement.

也可能是內部工作量的問題。我的意思是，有很多因素可能會影響他們如何做決策。但我想回到重點，我不認為你可以從中解讀出他們決定直接買授權而不是透過我們。最近發生的就是這樣，而我不認為這代表任何放緩或其他狀況。這只是採購的不同途徑。

Tobey Sommer, Truist Securities.

Tobey Sommer，Truist Securities。

I was wondering if you could dig in and give us a little bit more color on your Fed civ, exposure within the ECS government business. I know when we think about it from an activity basis, you do provide higher-end cloud, IT modernization, et cetera, but somebody was probably providing some of those services that are objectively efficiency driving services at USAID and everything paused there.

我想知道你是否能更深入一些，給我們更多關於你們在 ECS 政府業務中，聯邦文職（Fed civ）曝險的細節。我知道從活動面來看，你們確實提供較高階的雲端、IT 現代化等等，但也有人可能在 USAID 提供一些客觀上能提升效率的服務，而那邊一切都暫停了。

So could you give us a little more color and granularity on the civil side?

所以你能否在文職端提供更多說明與更細的拆解？

Probably the best way, Tobey, to speak about it is there's not any client in that group that's more than kind of mid-single digits of revenue, and it's fairly dispersed. It really doesn't cover many, if any, of the regulatory agencies without getting into too much detail, I mean, I think, obviously, any of these agencies could be examined by DOGE. But I think we don't have a concentration of revenue even in the 33% that we would call that civilian. And honestly, it's really only, you got 10% of that, as I mentioned earlier, is commercial and SLED.

Tobey，或許最好的說法是，那一組裡沒有任何單一客戶的營收占比超過中個位數百分比，而且分散度相當高。在不談太多細節的前提下，它其實沒有涵蓋很多、甚至幾乎沒有涵蓋監管機構；我的意思是，我想顯然任何這些機構都可能被 DOGE 檢視。但我認為，即便是在我們稱為文職的那 33% 裡，我們也沒有營收集中度。而且坦白說，如我先前提到，其中只有 10% 是商業與 SLED。

So really, you're down to about 23% of that. And so there's no concentration, and it's all higher-end IT modernization, cybersecurity, data and AI, cloud work. And while we don't know what we don't know, I think we're about as well positioned as you can be vis-a-vis the services there -- the revenues.

所以實際上，你大概只剩下那個的約 23%。因此沒有集中度，而且全部都是較高端的 IT 現代化、資安、資料與 AI、雲端相關工作。雖然我們不知道我們不知道的事，但我認為就那邊的服務——收入而言——我們的布局已經算是能做到的最好狀態了。

Could you talk to us about the deal, how you came to know TopBloc? Was it an auction process? And how did equity become a component of the value?

你能跟我們談談這筆交易，以及你們是如何認識 TopBloc 的嗎？這是拍賣流程嗎？另外，股權是如何成為價值組成的一部分？

Sure. It was a firm that we had met and knew of a couple of years ago, actually, at the same time, we were making our GlideFast acquisition, and we, at that time, prioritize ServiceNow is at the very top of our list but we've been watching this firm. We got reengaged with TopBloc here in the last number of months, going back to the middle of last year.

當然。其實我們在幾年前就見過並認識這家公司了，當時我們正在進行 GlideFast 的收購；那時我們把 ServiceNow 放在清單最上面作為優先項，但我們也一直在關注這家公司。過去幾個月我們又重新與 TopBloc 接觸，最早可以追溯到去年年中。

We've seen their progress, obviously, our list had been refined and polished and Workday kind of stood up there with a couple of other things at the top of the list. It was a minority ownership by private equity, and there are partners that had the majority of the ownership. There's still founders in the business. And we -- when we thought about the mix of proceeds and how to go about that, we felt like having a little mix of equity in there would be the right alignment, if you will, between that firm and us. And so it wasn't too much more than that.

我們看到他們的進展；顯然，我們的清單也被重新精煉與打磨，而 Workday 與其他幾項一起位居清單最前端。他們有一部分少數股權由私募股權持有，而合夥人持有多數股權。公司裡仍然有創辦人在。當我們思考對價的組合以及該如何進行時，我們覺得在其中加入一點股權，會是讓那家公司與我們之間達到適當一致性的做法。大概就是這樣，沒有更複雜。

Okay. One follow-up on the software licenses. Since the key, I guess, variability in how the customers procure those. Have you included software licenses in your guide? Is it at a lower level than would have been typical historically?

了解。關於軟體授權我再追問一個。因為關鍵的變動性，我想是在於客戶如何採購這些授權。你們在財測指引中有包含軟體授權嗎？它是否低於過去歷史上典型的水準？

Just anything you can give us there?

這部分你能提供我們任何資訊嗎？

Yes and yes. There is a little bit in our guide. It's lower than it would historically be and there's no bulk purchases in that number. It's fairly disparate.

是的，也確實是。我們的指引裡有包含一點。它低於歷史水準，而且那個數字裡沒有任何大量採購。分布相當分散。

Okay. So I'm curious from a big picture standpoint, Ted. The industry and the company had three years of revenue declines, what actions have you taken strategically to be able to grow more quickly and sort of strengthen the organization once demand increases, and I'll put TopBloc to the side for now because we've discussed that on the call already.

了解。所以從更宏觀的角度來看，Ted，我很好奇。這個產業和公司經歷了三年的營收下滑；你們在策略上採取了哪些行動，讓公司能更快成長，並在需求回升時強化組織？我先把 TopBloc 放一邊，因為我們在電話會議中已經討論過了。

Yes. Well, look, I mean, I think that TopBloc is one example of things that we've done here, which is to really hone in on and build or strength than muscle in our solutions so that we are there and ready for what our customer needs today and in the future.

是的。嗯，你看，我認為 TopBloc 就是我們所做事情的一個例子：也就是更聚焦、並建立或強化我們在解決方案上的「肌肉」，讓我們能因應客戶今天以及未來的需求。

So more so than ever, I think there's a strength in solution capabilities that lines up with what our customers need, even if the revenue isn't quite there today, that's the thing that I would say we've moved the furthest on over the last two to three years.

所以比以往任何時候都更重要的是，我認為我們在解決方案能力上更強，且與客戶需求更一致；即使今天營收還沒完全反映出來，這是我會說在過去兩到三年我們推進幅度最大的一件事。

I think the other thing is we're kind of honing in and put this with solution strength, but collaboration between our federal units and our commercial units because there are some things in federal will do really well and AI data and cybersecurity at the top of that list. And so I would say the biggest thing would be that just continuing to build that solution strength here.

我認為另一件事是，我們正在更聚焦——也可與解決方案強化放在一起看——就是我們的聯邦業務單位與商業業務單位之間的協作，因為聯邦端有些事情做得非常好，其中 AI、資料與資安是最重要的。所以我會說最大的重點，就是持續在這裡建立那樣的解決方案實力。

Rand, would you add anything else?

Rand，你要補充其他的嗎？

Well, I will because you had it in the remarks, Tobey, if you don't mind, our alliance relationships with the big technology players has gotten a lot stronger in the last two years where we have not just support to our technical strength or solution strength, but also lead flow strength.

我會補充，因為你在開場致詞裡提到了，Tobey，如果你不介意的話，我們與大型科技業者的聯盟關係在過去兩年變得強很多；這不只是對我們的技術實力或解決方案實力的支援，也包括帶來商機線索的能力。

The second thing I've mentioned really comes first and foremost is we continue to stay focused on the right set of accounts, the right set of accounts within the segment to the marketplace, we think are growing and the productivity of our team, both in the client space as well as in our solutions and back office teams.

第二點其實我提到的應該放在第一：我們持續專注在正確的一組客戶、在該市場區隔中我們認為正在成長的正確客戶組合，以及我們團隊的生產力——不論是客戶端團隊，或是解決方案與後勤團隊。

So we haven't missed a beat in terms of productivity, as you can see by our margins. We maintain, first and foremost, a focus on these accounts and stay with them. So when they return to spend and need us, we're there. And then yes, as Ted said, strengthening solutions, strengthening internal IT and strengthening alliance relationships.

所以我們在生產力方面沒有掉拍，你從我們的利潤率就看得出來。我們最優先的是維持對這些客戶的聚焦並持續跟進。因此當他們恢復支出並需要我們時，我們就在那裡。然後是的，如 Ted 所說，強化解決方案、強化內部 IT，以及強化聯盟關係。

Last question for me. Could you -- how do Creative Circle perform in the quarter? How did growth compare to the rest of the assignment business?

我最後一個問題。Creative Circle 這一季表現如何？成長與其他派遣業務相比如何？

Yes. Thanks, [Bill]. The cyber, I'd say the cyber coaters, which is most of our firm placement, and Creative Circle together, about 9% of the revenue mix now are down more than our IT offering. So think about that as kind of low to mid-teens on that side, and that's been kind of consistent with where we were, so not much change there.

是的。謝謝，[Bill]。資安——我會說資安相關的招募（這占了我們大部分的正職安置），再加上 Creative Circle，現在合計約占營收組合的 9%，下滑幅度比我們的 IT 服務更大。所以那一塊大概是低到中十幾個百分點的下滑，而且與我們之前的狀況大致一致，所以變化不大。

Although I will say, Tobey, in those areas, we are seeing some of the same good leading indicators within those two units that we're seeing in the overall in the IT area, commercial IT areas that Rand mentioned earlier.

不過我會說，Tobey，在那些領域裡，我們也看到一些與整體 IT 領域（Rand 先前提到的商業 IT 領域）相同的正向領先指標，出現在那兩個單位。

Mark Marcon, Baird.

Mark Marcon，Baird。

Rand, congratulations on the new position and really glad to hear that you're going to continue to be part of the organization. And hopefully, you actually joined the calls as well and then welcome to Shiv.

Rand，恭喜你升任新職，也很高興聽到你會繼續留在組織中。也希望你之後也會一起參加電話會議，另外也歡迎 Shiv。

You've been doing a great job on the margins despite the challenging environment. How much excess capacity do you currently have? And can you give us an update with regards to the internal headcount in terms of where it stands today relative to a year ago?

在充滿挑戰的環境下，你們在利潤率方面做得很出色。你們目前有多少閒置產能？另外，能否就內部人力編制提供最新狀況：相較於一年前，今天大概處於什麼水位？

Well, look, Mark, our head count is pretty steady right now. It's down a little from where it was last year but our capacity there.

嗯，你看，Mark，我們目前的人頭數相當穩定。比去年略少一些，但我們的產能——

I mean -- and we're seeing it. I mean, look, you can see it here in the numbers. I mean, our bookings were up 23%, I think, sequentially from the third quarter to the fourth in commercial. They were up about 12% year-over-year. And our team still is able to absorb this and position ourselves to begin the work here as we get into the first quarter, and we're not seeing a capacity problem, if you will.

我的意思是——而且我們也看到了。你看，從數字就能看出來。我們的商業端訂單（bookings）從第三季到第四季，我記得是季增 23%。年增大約 12%。而我們的團隊仍然能消化這些量，並在進入第一季時開始展開工作；我們並沒有看到所謂的產能問題。

Great. And so I didn't think you'd have a problem. I just meant from the perspective of if business picks up, how much excess capacity do you have? Or are you going to need to add headcount if business picks up?

很好。所以我也不認為你們會有問題。我只是想從另一個角度問：如果業務回升，你們有多少閒置產能？或者如果業務回升，你們是否需要增加人力？

Well, look, obviously, at some point, we'll return to adding headcount. Today, like I said, we're pretty steady, but we've got capacity. And I think you'll -- again, the other thing that's going to happen here as we go, Mark, as you hopefully, as the leading indicators show if we begin to get a steady pickup here in commercial, you're going to see our EBITDA, our gross and EBITDA margins inflect up overall because of the mix of business.

嗯，你看，很明顯，在某個時間點，我們會回到增加人力編制。今天，如我所說，我們相當穩定，但我們還有產能。而且我認為你會——再說一次，隨著我們往前走，這裡還會發生的另一件事是，Mark，正如你所希望的那樣，如果領先指標顯示我們在商業端開始出現穩定回升，你會看到我們的 EBITDA、我們的毛利率以及 EBITDA 利潤率，因為業務組合的關係，整體都會向上拐點。

Where for the last few years, the commercial has been in a more of a decline in the federal comes at a slightly less margin. So you're seeing a business mix impact, you'll see that turn around here as we go forward.

因為在過去幾年，商業端一直在較為下滑，而聯邦端的利潤率略低一些。所以你看到的是業務組合的影響；隨著我們往前走，你會看到這種情況在這裡出現反轉。

Great. And then you're not giving specific guidance, but I'm just wondering, should we kind of expect the same level of decline in the government side in the -- for this first quarter, there's just so much uncertainty out there. I just wanted to see if there's a rough range that you could take us down with regards to the government side.

很好。然後你們沒有提供具體指引，但我只是想知道，我們是否應該大致預期政府端在——在第一季會出現同樣幅度的下滑？外部不確定性實在太多了。我只是想看看，關於政府端，你是否能給我們一個大概的區間。

I mean, look, I think we've given you our guide is based on everything we see today, Mark, what could happen here in that marketplace. I mean, we're not aware of anything that's in our guide that's going to be problematic.

我的意思是，你看，Mark，我們給你的指引是基於我們今天所看到的一切，以及那個市場可能會發生的情況。我的意思是，我們沒有察覺到指引中有任何會成為問題的事情。

But at the same time, there's just still a lot moving around there. So we've scrubbed our guide pretty hard to that end. I couldn't bracket it for you because I don't think anybody knows what they know.

但同時，那邊仍然有很多變動。所以為此我們已經非常仔細地檢視並反覆推敲我們的指引。我沒辦法替你劃出區間，因為我覺得沒有人真正知道自己知道什麼。

Okay. And then TopBloc, congrats on that. I've followed Workday for since prior to the IPO. So I know it's fairly well. In terms of TopBloc specifically, do you know which exact sectors they're the most focused on with regards to implementations?

好的。另外，TopBloc，恭喜你們完成那件事。我從 Workday IPO 之前就一直在關注它。所以我對它相當熟悉。就 TopBloc 具體而言，你知道他們在導入實施方面最聚焦於哪些特定產業嗎？

And how much of the business do they have is kind of recurring versus purely implementations?

以及他們的業務中，大概有多少是經常性收入，相對於純粹的導入實施？

So Mark, their market is across the same diverse industries that we serve, so that's a positive. The one place where they've done less, which obviously, we have the position is in the federal government.

所以 Mark，他們的市場涵蓋我們所服務的同樣多元產業，這是正面的。他們做得比較少的一個地方——而這顯然是我們具備優勢的位置——是在聯邦政府。

And as you know, following Workday, like you do, that's a big initiative, if you will, inside of Workday as an end customer. The piece of the market they've served, I would say, are middle market up to the bottom half of the Fortune 1000, so call it, Fortune 600 to 1000. So between that group of players and large middle market accounts, they've got quite a quite a customer list.

而且如你所知，既然你一直在追蹤 Workday，那也是 Workday 內部面向終端客戶的一項重大計畫（如果你願意這麼說）。我會說，他們服務的市場區段是中型市場到《財富》1000 大的下半部，所以大概是《財富》600 到 1000。因此，在那一群客戶以及大型中型市場客戶之間，他們擁有相當、相當多的客戶名單。

And then their revenue has a nice mix of implementation work. And then what I'll call post-production services that range from production support, helping to run various services. And so they have a nice recurring revenue stream beyond just the onetime implementation and that work is growing for them quite nicely.

另外，他們的營收在導入實施工作方面有不錯的組合。以及我所稱的上線後服務，範圍從正式環境支援、協助運行各種服務。因此，他們除了單次導入實施之外，還有不錯的經常性收入來源，而且那部分業務成長得相當不錯。

Great. And then do you know if you're on both finance as well as HR or just primarily HR?

很好。那你知道你們涵蓋財務以及人資兩邊，還是主要是人資嗎？

Finance plus HR, full suite.

財務加人資，全套。

Excellent. So that should be a really nice complement to what you're already doing with ServiceNow and position you well.

太好了。所以這應該會和你們在 ServiceNow 既有的業務形成很好的互補，並讓你們處於有利位置。

Hate to ask this question, but just because it keeps coming up, it's the tariff question. How do we think about Intersys in your Mexican delivery center? How are you thinking about that just based on the chatter that's out there?

我不太想問這個問題，但因為它一直被提起，就是關稅的問題。我們該如何看待 Intersys 在你們墨西哥交付中心的情況？基於外界的各種傳聞，你們是怎麼看這件事的？

Well, based on what we know today and what we've seen in the past, those types of services are not subject -- have not been subject to tariffs in the way the goods are. So on that front, that's a positive. That's just historic, right? If you think about the need for technical talent here for US-based clients, obviously, everyone wants to maintain a competitive position here and have access to that talent.

嗯，根據我們今天所知道的，以及我們過去所看到的，這類服務不像商品那樣會被課徵關稅——過去並未以同樣方式受到關稅影響。所以在這方面是正面的。那只是歷史經驗，對吧？如果你想想美國本土客戶對技術人才的需求，很顯然，每個人都希望維持競爭地位並能取得那些人才。

And so you've seen a little bit of conversation between big tech and the new administration to make sure the pathway stay open to offshore locations in order to continue to be able to access technical talent, not just here in the US, but all over the world. So that's a positive.

因此你也看到大型科技公司與新政府之間有一些對話，以確保通往離岸據點的途徑保持開放，從而能持續取得技術人才，不僅是在美國，也是在全球各地。所以這是正面的。

But at the end, I'll say, tariffs can have a direct effect on all kinds of things. I mean, you could see costs rise in other parts of the world where there's a tariff implemented, but those are smaller indirect things. And so I think for us, we feel good about it right now, but we have to keep watching where all this goes with the policy and the new administration.

但最後我想說，關稅可能會對各種事情產生直接影響。我的意思是，你可能會看到在其他實施關稅的地區成本上升，但那些屬於較小的間接影響。所以我認為就我們而言，目前我們對此感覺良好，但我們必須持續觀察政策以及新政府接下來的走向。

And we have reached the end of the question-and-answer session. I would like to turn the floor over to the CEO, Ted Hanson, for his closing remarks.

我們已經到達問答環節的結束。我想把時間交給執行長 Ted Hanson，請他做結語。

Great. Well, thank you, operator. I appreciate everybody's time and attention today for our fourth quarter earnings release, and we look forward to speaking with you again in April to discuss our first quarter of 2025.

很好。那麼，謝謝主持人。感謝各位今天在我們第四季財報發布會上撥冗參與並專注聆聽，我們也期待在四月再次與各位交流，討論我們 2025 年第一季的表現。

Thank you. And this concludes today's conference, and you may disconnect your line at this time. Thank you for your participation.

謝謝。今天的會議到此結束，您現在可以掛線。感謝您的參與。