Cherry Hill Mortgage Investment Corp (CHMI) 2025 Q1 法說會逐字稿

Good day and welcome to the Cherry Hill Mortgage Investment Corporation first quarter of 2025 earnings call. At this time, all participants are listen-only mode. After the speaker's presentation, there'll be a question and answer session. Instructions will be given at that time. As a reminder, this call may be recorded.

大家好，歡迎參加 Cherry Hill Mortgage Investment Corporation 2025 年第一季財報電話會議。此時，所有與會者均處於只聽模式。演講者演講結束後，將有問答環節。屆時將會給予指示。提醒一下，本次通話可能會被錄音。

I would like to turn the call over to Garrett Edson with ICR. Please go ahead.

我想將電話轉給 ICR 的 Garrett Edson。請繼續。

We'd like to thank you for joining us today for Cherry Hill Mortgage Investment Corporation's first quarter 2025 conference call. In addition to this call, we have issued a press release that was distributed earlier this afternoon and posted that press release in the first quarter 2025 investor presentation to the investor relations section of our website at www.chmireit.com

感謝您今天參加 Cherry Hill Mortgage Investment Corporation 2025 年第一季電話會議。除了此次電話會議之外，我們還發布了一份新聞稿，該新聞稿已於今天下午早些時候發布，並在 2025 年第一季度投資者介紹會上發佈到我們網站 www.chmireit.com 的投資者關係部分。

On today's call, management's prepared remarks and answers to your questions may contain forward-looking statements that are subject to risk and uncertainties that could cause actual results to differ from those discussed today. Examples of forward-looking statements include those related to interest income, financial guidance, IRRs, future expected cash flows, as well as pre-payment and recapture rates, delinquencies, and non-GAAP financial measures such as earnings available for distribution or EAD and comprehensive income. Forward-looking statements represent management's current estimates, and Cherry Hill assumes no obligation to update any forward-looking statements in the future.

在今天的電話會議上，管理層準備的評論和對您的問題的回答可能包含前瞻性陳述，這些陳述受風險和不確定性的影響，可能導致實際結果與今天討論的結果不同。前瞻性聲明的例子包括與利息收入、財務指導、內部收益率 (IRR)、未來預期現金流量以及預付款和回收率、拖欠率和非公認會計準則財務指標（如可供分配的收益或 EAD 和綜合收入）相關的陳述。前瞻性陳述代表管理層目前的估計，Cherry Hill 不承擔未來更新任何前瞻性聲明的義務。

We encourage listeners to review the more detailed discussions related to these forward-looking statements contained in the company's filings with the SEC and definitions contained in the financial presentations available on the company's website.

我們鼓勵聽眾查看公司向美國證券交易委員會提交的文件中有關這些前瞻性陳述的更詳細討論以及公司網站上提供的財務報告中的定義。

Today's conference call is hosted by Jay Lown, President and CEO; Julian Evans, the Chief Investment Officer; and Michael Hutchby, the Chief Financial Officer.

今天的電話會議由總裁兼首席執行官傑伊·勞恩 (Jay Lown)、首席投資官朱利安·埃文斯 (Julian Evans) 和首席財務官邁克爾·哈奇比 (Michael Hutchby) 主持。

Now, I will turn the call over to Jay.

現在，我將把電話轉給傑伊。

Thanks, Garrett, and welcome to our first quarter of 2025 earnings call.

謝謝，加勒特，歡迎參加我們 2025 年第一季的財報電話會議。

The first quarter of 2025 was anything but calm. The reaction from markets domestically has been very aggressive during the first 100 days of the new administration. Amidst a backdrop of increased uncertainty, disruption, and meaningful policy changes coming out of DC.

2025 年第一季絕非平靜。新政府上任的頭一百天，國內市場的反應非常強烈。在華盛頓的政策不確定性、混亂和重大變化不斷增加的背景下。

Rates pushed lower in March, partly driven by rhetoric from Washington. And the 10 year ended the quarter at 4.25%. Approximately 30 basis points lower quarter over quarter. That, however, was quickly overshadowed by the run-up to the Liberation Day tariff announcement on April 2.

3 月利率下降，部分原因是受到華盛頓言論的影響。而 10 年期公債殖利率在本季末為 4.25%。與上一季相比下降了約 30 個基點。然而，這一勢頭很快就被4月2日解放日關稅公告所掩蓋。

Suddenly, rates spiked on fears of a broader economic recession and stagflation. While the administration put a pause on the majority of the reciprocal tariffs for 90 days to reach new agreements, investors are in wait and see mode to determine whether the administration can negotiate trade deals, or if we will return to potentially unprecedented volatility.

突然間，由於擔心更大範圍的經濟衰退和滯脹，利率飆升。儘管美國政府暫停了大部分互惠關稅 90 天以達成新協議，但投資者仍在觀望，以確定政府是否可以談判貿易協議，或者我們是否會再次陷入潛在的前所未有的波動。

Going forward, we expect rates will continue to be highly reactive to both global political agendas and domestic economic data. This uncertainty has pushed us to position the portfolio more neutral to rates to withstand the daily volatility.

展望未來，我們預期利率將繼續對全球政治議程和國內經濟數據產生高度反應。這種不確定性促使我們將投資組合定位為對利率更中性，以抵禦日常波動。

For the first quarter, we generated GAAP net loss applicable to common stockholders of $0.29 per diluted share. Book value per common share finished the quarter at $3.58 compared to $3.82 on December 31.

第一季度，我們普通股股東的 GAAP 淨虧損為每股 0.29 美元。本季每股普通股帳面價值為 3.58 美元，而 12 月 31 日為 3.82 美元。

On an NAV basis which includes preferred stock and prior to any ATM capital raised in the quarter. NAB was down approximately 7.5 million, or 3.2% relative to December 31.

以資產淨值 (NAV) 為基礎，包括優先股，且在本季度籌集的任何 ATM 資本之前。與 12 月 31 日相比，NAB 下降了約 750 萬，降幅為 3.2%。

Financial leverage at the end of the quarter remained consistent at 5.2 times as we continue to stay prudently leverage. We ended the quarter with $47 million of unrestricted cash on the balance sheet, maintaining a solid liquidity profile.

由於我們繼續保持審慎的槓桿率，本季末的財務槓桿率保持在 5.2 倍的水平。本季末，我們的資產負債表上有 4,700 萬美元的非限制現金，維持了穩健的流動性狀況。

We were pleased to complete our first full quarter as an integrated internally managed mortgagee. In line with our prior quarters, operating expenses declined quarter over quarter due to the elimination of the management fee.

我們很高興作為綜合內部管理抵押貸款人完成了我們的第一個完整季度。與前幾季一樣，由於取消了管理費，營運費用環比下降。

As we proceed through 2025, we will continue to closely manage our operating expenses as we look to responsibly grow Cherry Hill, which will ultimately improve both our expense ratio and our capital structure over time.

展望 2025 年，我們將繼續密切管理營運費用，同時尋求負責任地發展 Cherry Hill，最終將改善我們的費用率和資本結構。

Looking ahead, we are watching the macro environment and the tariff situation very closely. And are stressing our portfolio for numerous scenarios in light of the forthcoming tariff deadline.

展望未來，我們正在密切關注宏觀環境和關稅情況。並且，鑑於即將到來的關稅截止日期，我們正在為多種情況強調我們的投資組合。

In the near term, we plan to deploy capital as appropriate into the agency RBS and select MSRs, which still presents strong risk adjusted return profiles, while maintaining strong liquidity and prudent leverage.

短期內，我們計劃將適當的資本投入機構 RBS 和精選 MSR，這些機構仍具有強勁的風險調整回報狀況，同時保持強勁的流動性和審慎的槓桿率。

With that, I'll turn the call over to Julian, who we'll cover more details regarding our investment portfolio and its performance over the first quarter.

接下來，我將把電話轉給朱利安 (Julian)，我們將向他詳細介紹我們的投資組合及其第一季的表現。

Thank you, Jay.

謝謝你，傑伊。

Mortgages started the quarter well, tightening for the first two months only to end the quarter marginally wider as pending tariffs increased volatility into the administration's announcement on liberation day. Overall, rates ended the quarter lower and mortgage performance was mixed. Despite the rally in interest rates, higher coupon mortgages outperformed lower coupon mortgages. While our coupon positioning for the quarter was good, our portfolio needed to be longer in duration and the lower coupon portion of our portfolio simply did not keep pace with our hedges in the interest rate rally.

本季開始時抵押貸款利率表現良好，前兩個月有所收緊，但本季末利率略有擴大，因為待定關稅加劇了政府在解放日宣布的政策的波動。總體而言，本季利率下降，抵押貸款表現好壞參半。儘管利率上漲，但高利抵押貸款的表現優於低利率抵押貸款。雖然我們本季的票面利率定位良好，但我們的投資組合需要更長的期限，而我們投資組合中較低的票面利率部分根本無法跟上利率上漲中的對沖步伐。

As we look ahead, like everyone else, we are watching the macro environment very closely as we wait tariff deals to be hopefully announced in the weeks and months ahead. In the near term, volatility will likely continue and we will expect rates to remain elevated until there is some clear certainty with respect to go forward macro policy.

展望未來，和其他人一樣，我們也密切關注宏觀環境，等待未來幾週和幾個月內公佈的關稅協議。短期內，波動性可能會持續，我們預期利率將維持高位，直到未來宏觀政策有明確的確定性。

At quarter end, our MSR portfolio had a UPB of $17 billion and a market value of approximately $227 million. The MSR related net assets represented approximately 44% of our equity capital and approximately 24% of our investable assets, excluding cash at quarter end.

截至本季末，我們的 MSR 投資組合的 UPB 為 170 億美元，市值約為 2.27 億美元。MSR 相關淨資產約占我們股本的 44% 和可投資資產的 24%（不包括季末的現金）。

Meanwhile, our RMBS portfolio accounted for approximately 39% of our equity capital. As a percentage of investable assets, the RMBS portfolio represented 76%, excluding cash at quarter end. Pre-payment speeds for MSR and RMBS portfolios remained relatively steady compared to the prior quarter, despite rates rallying in the first quarter.

同時，我們的RMBS投資組合約占我們股本的39%。作為可投資資產的百分比，RMBS 投資組合佔 76%（不包括季度末的現金）。儘管第一季利率有所上漲，但 MSR 和 RMBS 投資組合的預付款速度與上一季相比保持相對穩定。

Our MSR portfolios and net CPR averaged approximately 4.1% for the first quarter, down modestly from the previous quarter. The portfolio's recapture rate was de minimis as the incentive to refinance continues to be minimal for this portfolio given the portfolio's loan rate.

我們第一季的 MSR 投資組合和淨 CPR 平均約為 4.1%，較上一季略有下降。投資組合的回收率處於最低水平，因為考慮到投資組合的貸款利率，該投資組合的再融資動力仍然很小。

Going forward with rates remaining elevated amid the macro uncertainty, we continue to expect a lower capture rate and a relatively low net CPR in the near term given our portfolio's characteristics.

展望未來，在宏觀不確定性的背景下，利率仍將維持高位，鑑於我們投資組合的特點，我們預計短期內捕獲率將有所下降，淨 CPR 也將相對較低。

Meanwhile, the RMBS portfolio's prepayment speeds remain low, with mortgage rates fluctuating between 6.5% and 7% the past few months. If mortgage rates stabilized within this range, we would expect pre-payment speeds to remain moderate in the second quarter.

同時，RMBS 投資組合的提前還款速度仍然很低，過去幾個月抵押貸款利率在 6.5% 至 7% 之間波動。如果抵押貸款利率穩定在這個範圍內，我們預計第二季的預付款速度將保持適度。

For the first quarter, the RMBS portfolio's weighted average three months CPR was approximately 5.8% compared to 5.7% in the fourth quarter. As of March 31, the RMBS portfolio inclusive of TBA stood at approximately $733 million compared to 723 million at the previous quarter end, as we modestly shifted our RMBS positioning during the quarter and the portfolio remained higher coupon mortgage focused.

第一季度，RMBS 投資組合的加權平均三個月 CPR 約為 5.8%，而第四季度為 5.7%。截至 3 月 31 日，包括 TBA 在內的 RMBS 投資組合約為 7.33 億美元，而上一季末為 7.23 億美元，因為我們在本季度適度調整了 RMBS 定位，並且投資組合仍然以較高票面利率的抵押貸款為重點。

For the first quarter, our RMBS net interest spread was 3.55%, higher than the prior quarter. Driven by improved dollar roll income and repo expenses, which were partially offset by reduced income from swaps.

第一季度，我們的RMBS淨利差為3.55%，高於上一季。推動因素是美元展期收入和回購費用的增加，但被掉期收入的減少部分抵銷。

Overall, our head strategy remains largely intact, and we will continue to use a combination of swaps, TBA securities, and treasury futures to head the portfolio. Treasury futures have become a larger portion of hedges, especially given the recent tightening of swap spreads.

整體而言，我們的主導策略基本上保持不變，我們將繼續使用掉期、TBA 證券和國債期貨的組合來主導投資組合。國債期貨已成為對沖的更大一部分，特別是考慮到近期掉期利差的收緊。

As the year progresses, we would expect the RMBS portfolio to normalize towards historical levels in the next quarter, as dollar roll income is less special and swap income is reduced to swaps mature.

隨著時間的推移，我們預計下一季的 RMBS 投資組合將趨向於歷史水平，因為美元滾動收入不再那麼特殊，掉期收入隨著掉期到期而減少。

Moving forward, we will continue to proactively manage our portfolio while continuing to shift our overall capital structure that value for shareholders to improved performance and earnings.

展望未來，我們將繼續積極管理我們的投資組合，同時繼續轉變我們的整體資本結構，為股東創造價值，提高績效和收益。

And we will now turn the call over to Michael for our first quarter of financial discussion.

現在我們將把電話交給邁克爾，討論第一季的財務問題。

Thank you, Julian.

謝謝你，朱利安。

GAAP net loss applicable to common stockholders for the first quarter was $9.3 million, $0.29 per weighted average diluted share outstanding during the quarter, while comprehensive loss attributable to common stockholders, which includes the market to market of our available for sale RMBS, was $2.6 million or $0.08 per weighted average diluted share.

第一季歸屬於普通股股東的 GAAP 淨虧損為 930 萬美元，即本季每股加權平均稀釋虧損 0.29 美元，而歸屬於普通股股東的綜合虧損（其中包括可供出售的 RMBS 的市價）為 260 萬美元，即每股加權平均攤薄虧損 0.08 美元。

Our earnings available for distribution or EAD attributable to common stockholders were $5.4 million or $0.17 per share. The EAD in the quarter benefited from outsized dollar roll income, and income received from one of the larger hedges before it matured at the end of the quarter. To that end, because that larger hedge has matured and will no longer receive income from it, we would expect EAD to be lower moving forward.

我們可供分配的收益或歸屬於普通股股東的 EAD 為 540 萬美元或每股 0.17 美元。本季的 EAD 受益於超額的美元展期收入，以及在本季末到期之前從一筆較大的對沖交易中獲得的收入。為此，由於較大的對沖已經到期並且將不再從中獲得收入，我們預計 EAD 未來將會降低。

However, as we have stated consistently, EAD is not the sole barometer for setting our common dividend, and that our board also considers factors such as the prevailing market environment, portfolio return potential, our level of taxable income, including potential hedge gain impacts, and the degree of certainty regarding forward investment return economics.

然而，正如我們一貫所說，EAD 並不是設定普通股股息的唯一標準，我們的董事會還會考慮諸如現行市場環境、投資組合回報潛力、應稅收入水平（包括潛在的對沖收益影響）以及遠期投資回報經濟的確定程度等因素。

Our book value per common share as of March 31 was $3.58 compared to a book value of $3.82 at the end of December. We use a variety of derivative instruments to mitigate the effects of increases in interest rates on a portion of our future repurchase borrowings.

截至 3 月 31 日，我們的每股普通股帳面價值為 3.58 美元，而 12 月底的帳面價值為 3.82 美元。我們使用各種衍生性工具來減輕利率上升對我們未來部分回購借款的影響。

At the end of the first quarter, we held interest rate swaps, TBAs, and treasury futures, all of which had a combined notional amount of approximately $489 million. You can see more details with respect to our hedging strategy and our 10-Q as well as in our first quarter presentation.

截至第一季末，我們持有的利率互換、TBA 和國債期貨的名目金額總計約為 4.89 億美元。您可以在有關我們的對沖策略和 10-Q 以及第一季簡報中看到更多詳細資訊。

For GAAP purposes, we have not elected to apply hedge accounting for interest rate derivatives, and as a result, we record the change in estimated fair value as a component of the net gain or loss on those interest rate derivatives.

出於 GAAP 目的，我們沒有選擇對利率衍生性商品應用套期會計，因此，我們將估計公允價值的變動記錄為這些利率衍生性商品的淨收益或損失的一部分。

Our operating expenses were $3.8 million for the quarter. On March 13, 2025, our board of directors declared a dividend of $0.15 per common share for the first quarter of the year, which was paid in cash on April 30.

本季我們的營運費用為 380 萬美元。2025年3月13日，我們的董事會宣布今年第一季每股普通股派發0.15美元的股息，並於4月30日以現金支付。

We also declared a dividend of $0.5125 per share on our 8.2% Series A cumulative redeemable preferred stock, and a dividend of $0.6372 on our 8.250% Series B fixed to floating rate cumulative redeemable preferred stock, both of which were paid on April 15, 2025.

我們也宣布，對 8.2% A 系列累積可贖回優先股派發每股 0.5125 美元的股息，對 8.250% B 系列固定浮動利率累積可贖回優先股派發每股 0.6372 美元的股息，均於 2025 年 4 月 15 日支付。

At this time we will open up the call for questions. Operator?

現在我們將開始提問。操作員？

Thank you. (Operator Instructions).

謝謝。（操作員指令）。

Our first question comes from Randy Binner with B.Riley Securities. Your line is open.

我們的第一個問題來自 B.Riley Securities 的 Randy Binner。您的線路已開通。

Hey, thanks, good evening. Yeah, I thought, it was like the hopeful commentary there. I think the question I have is, and I know this is covered and team in the opening commentary, but is. I guess what would it take for you to allocate more to the MBS portfolio? I mean, I think we've seen a little bit more growth from some others so far this quarter, not that's right or wrong, but you know there is this period of uncertainty, but it, the core. The core is lower, as you said, yeah, go for a basis if that portfolio doesn't grow. And so, maybe just a little more color on the kind of what it takes to turn to a point where you're able to acquire more and grow the portfolio.

嘿，謝謝，晚上好。是的，我認為，這就像是那裡充滿希望的評論。我認為我的問題是，我知道這個已經在開場評論中討論過了，但是。我猜你需要為 MBS 投資組合分配更多資金嗎？我的意思是，我認為本季到目前為止，我們已經看到其他一些公司實現了更多的成長，這無所謂對錯，但你知道存在一個不確定的時期，但這是核心。正如您所說，核心較低，是的，如果投資組合沒有成長，請尋找基礎。因此，也許我們可以更詳細地說明一下，如何才能獲得更多資產並擴大投資組合。

Hey Randy, how are you? Are you, did you say MSR or MBS?

嘿，蘭迪，你好嗎？您是說 MSR 還是 MBS？

I mean, I guess my question was more on MBS, but, hearing about both would be helpful.

我的意思是，我想我的問題更多是關於 MBS 的，但是，了解兩者會很有幫助。

Yeah, so all of the reinvestment, amortization income that we get in this has been reinvested in MBS. I can tell you we haven't purchased an MSR in quite some time. So while it may not look like the portfolio composition has changed a lot, the only true way to change that material is for us to sell a portion of the MSR in favor of MBS. So definitively I can say for the past several quarters plus we have primarily if not exclusively been reinvesting income or reinvesting amortization into MBS.

是的，我們從中獲得的所有再投資、攤銷收入都已再投資於 MBS。我可以告訴你，我們已經很久沒有買 MSR 了。因此，儘管看起來投資組合的組成似乎沒有太大變化，但改變這種狀況的唯一真正方法是出售一部分 MSR，轉而購買 MBS。因此，我可以肯定地說，在過去的幾個季度裡，我們主要（如果不是全部）都在將收入再投資或將攤銷再投資到 MBS 中。

Okay, that's helpful, and then just on GSE reform if I can get this one in. There, you know, this is just something we've been gathering information on from throughout the industry and so you know pretty clear movement at FHFA as far as de-risking staffing, etc.

好的，這很有幫助，然後我再談談 GSE 改革，如果我能把這個納入進來的話。您知道，這只是我們從整個行業收集的信息，因此您知道聯邦住房金融局在降低人員配置風險等方面的行動相當明確。

Do you see movement there being priced into the market? Do you have a view of what you're looking for and how that might affect. You know how you allocate capital in the portfolio and how you run the business or is it too early to tell?

您是否認為這些變動已經反映在市場價格上了？您是否清楚自己在尋找什麼以及它可能產生什麼影響？您知道如何在投資組合中分配資本以及如何經營業務，還是現在說還為時過早？

Hey Randy, this is Julian. I think it's a little too early to tell. There's obviously, as you've noted, there has been some definitive movements going around the GSE. I think they've been primarily focused on expense deduction and everything reduction and things like that.

嘿，蘭迪，我是朱利安。我認為現在說這個還為時過早。顯然，正如您所注意到的，圍繞 GSE 已經出現了一些明確的動向。我認為他們主要關注的是費用扣除和一切削減之類的事情。

As we move forward I think the biggest thing we'd like to see is obviously is you want a complete resolution to what they really want to do with the GSE is whenever they enter a package on out, you don't want it to just be notes on a particular piece of paper you'd like something in terms of a complete and well thought out idea in terms of what they want to do to the GSE' given the impact that they'll have on housing.

隨著我們不斷前進，我認為我們最想看到的事情顯然是，您希望完全解決他們真正想對 GSE 做什麼的問題，無論何時他們輸入一個方案，您都不希望它只是在一張特定的紙上做筆記，您希望有一個完整且深思熟慮的想法，關於他們想對 GSE 做什麼，考慮到它們對住房的影響。

In terms of it really kind of being priced into the market, I'd have to say no, I don't really think it's priced into the market because At some point we have to find out if they move towards privatization, what they're going to do with the government guarantee on the security and how they're going to treat that.

至於它是否真的被計入市場價格，我不得不說不，我真的不認為它被計入市場價格，因為在某個時候，我們必須弄清楚，如果他們走向私有化，他們將如何處理政府對證券的擔保，以及他們將如何處理這個問題。

And I don't, currently, I think the market is making an assumption that that that government guarantee is safe and sound at the moment but we haven't seen any specifics, any detailed plans on that at all so I think we're kind of would be cautious on it. My estimation is that they will put out something complete in terms of GSE reform, but in terms of the government guarantee that hasn't been well defined yet.

目前，我認為市場並沒有假設政府擔保是安全可靠的，但我們還沒有看到任何具體細節，任何詳細計劃，所以我認為我們對此應該持謹慎態度。我的估計是，他們會在政府支持企業改革方面推出一些完整的政策，但在政府擔保方面還沒有明確規定。

Alright appreciate the comments, thanks.

好的，感謝您的評論，謝謝。

Thank you. Our next question comes from Jason Stewart with Janney Montgomery Scott. Your line is open.

謝謝。我們的下一個問題來自 Janney Montgomery Scott 的傑森史都華 (Jason Stewart)。您的線路已開通。

Hey, good evening. Thanks. If I missed it, I apologize, but could you give us a book value update quarter to date in Q2?

嘿，晚上好。謝謝。如果我錯過了，我很抱歉，但您能否給我們第二季迄今為止的帳面價值更新？

Oh man, you're stealing thunder from JMP.

哦，夥計，你搶了 JMP 的風頭。

Oh sorry. My bad.

噢，對不起。我的錯。

That's, that's just wrong. Michael?

這、這根本就是錯的。麥可？

Or Michael. Hey Jason, it's Mike. So at the end of April we see our NAV down about 3.7%, which then when you layer on the preferred multiple, you get to about a 7% book value per share and that's before any dividends for the quarter as the board has not yet met to approve one.

或者邁克爾。嘿傑森，我是麥克。因此，在 4 月底，我們的資產淨值下降了約 3.7%，然後，當您加上優先倍數時，您會得到每股約 7% 的帳面價值，而且這還不包括本季度的任何股息，因為董事會尚未開會批准股息。

Okay. I usually I'm last in the queue so I have to clean up the question. So Michael I apologize, thank you very much.

好的。我通常是隊伍中的最後一個，所以我必須清理這個問題。所以邁克爾，我向你道歉，非常感謝你。

And then in terms of the swap portfolio, could you remind us how much rolled off in 1Q and then this one less than one year bucket? I mean it's pretty small, 15 million that's left. It does that roll, when does that roll off?

然後，就掉期投資組合而言，您能否提醒我們第一季掉期投資組合的規模以及這個少於一年的時間段的掉期投資組合的規模？我的意思是它相當小，只剩下 1500 萬。它確實滾動，什麼時候滾動結束？

So yeah, in the first quarter and you can go back and you can see, that same page 11 in the first, in the prior quarter deck, so you can see that we had about 250 million of payer swaps that were rolling off in the quarter. It was about 0.2 years. And so, if you see that same page 11 and the, in this quarter's deck, you'll see that we've got about 15 million left in that in that one year bucket and it's about 0.9 years left on that.

是的，在第一季度，您可以回顧一下，在上一季的第一頁第 11 頁，您可以看到，我們在本季度有大約 2.5 億筆付款人掉期交易。大約是0.2年。因此，如果您查看同一頁和本季的演示文稿，您會看到我們在一年內還剩下大約 1500 萬美元，還剩下大約 0.9 年的時間。

There were a couple of receiver swaps that also paid off or ended in the quarter, but Julian's also been actively managing the swaps throughout the quarter as well.

本季有幾筆接收器互換也獲得了回報或結束，但朱利安也在整個季度積極管理互換。

Okay, so, that's just the $150 million notion that'll mature sometime in 2026, first half of 2026. There's nothing else rolling off this year.

好的，這只是一個 1.5 億美元的想法，它將在 2026 年某個時候，也就是 2026 年上半年成熟。今年沒有其他事情發生。

No, that's right. That's right. Yeah, if you look at that first row on page 11, the very top, everything in that first row is within 12 months of the of the report date, so this page is all essentially relative to March 31, 2025.

不，沒錯。這是正確的。是的，如果您查看第 11 頁的第一行，最頂部，第一行中的所有內容都在報告日期後的 12 個月內，因此該頁面基本上與 2025 年 3 月 31 日有關。

Got it. And then one question on mortgages, there's been more talk and it applies to spec pools, I guess, about how builder buy downs are impacting the convexity of mortgages. Are you seeing that? Are you seeing opportunities, inspect pools within the builder, buy down space or with regard to Rocket Cooper, how is it? Some people are looking at this saying Rocket Cooper is now priced too fast in some models. Is this creating opportunities in loan pools for you, or is this, and how are you looking at this?

知道了。然後是關於抵押貸款的一個問題，已經有了更多的討論，我想這適用於規格池，關於建築商買斷如何影響抵押貸款的凸性。你看到了嗎？您是否看到了機會、檢查了建築商內的游泳池、購買了空間或就 Rocket Cooper 而言，情況如何？有些人看到這個消息後說，Rocket Cooper 的一些型號現在定價太快了。這是否為您在貸款池中創造了機會，或者說，您如何看待這一點？

Hi, Jason, it's Julian. In terms of the builder buy downs, look, we've seen builder buy downs in the portfolios before, I guess it's become more of an a noted, type of traded, if people are like looking for some story to pick a particularly type of trade. We've noticed it, when we run our miss models and things like that.

嗨，傑森，我是朱利安。就建築商買入而言，你看，我們之前在投資組合中看到過建築商買入，我想它已經成為一種更受關注的交易類型，如果人們喜歡尋找一些故事來選擇特定類型的交易。當我們運行我們的錯過模型和類似的東西時，我們已經注意到了這一點。

It hasn't been anything that we have tried to focus in on the portfolio. I think we try to keep the payups in the portfolio modest at this point. In addition to that, I think, if we are getting into some type of refinance way, tried and true has always been some type of loan balance story, typically those get bid up as rates go down and pre-payment speeds get faster. What doesn't have, really translate often are some of these one-off stories and, that really haven't been around for a while. I think the bid team seems to fade on those.

這並不是我們在投資組合中試圖關注的重點。我認為我們現在會嘗試保持投資組合的支付額適中。除此之外，我認為，如果我們採用某種再融資方式，那麼久經考驗的一直是某種類型的貸款餘額故事，通常隨著利率下降和預付款速度加快，這些故事會被抬高。真正沒有翻譯的是一些一次性的故事，這些故事實際上已經存在了一段時間。我認為競標團隊似乎對這些不太感冒。

Okay, so the spec pools keeping it pretty straightforward, okay.

好的，所以規範池保持相當簡單，好的。

Got it, that's it for me. Thank you.

明白了，對我來說就這樣了。謝謝。

Thank you. (Operator Instructions).

謝謝。（操作員指令）。

Our next question comes from Mikhail Goberman with Citizens JMP. Your line is open.

我們的下一個問題來自 Citizens JMP 的 Mikhail Goberman。您的線路已開通。

Hey guys, hope everybody's doing well. I guess, I lost the question there.

嘿夥計們，希望大家都過得好。我想，我已經忘記這個問題了。

No worries, I appreciate the apology, Jason, totally unnecessary. Well, we can have a battle who gets that question first going forward.

別擔心，我很感謝你的道歉，傑森，完全沒有必要。好吧，我們可以展開一場爭論，誰先回答這個問題。

Congrats on your own liberation day, guys, and, the first full quarter of that, and, I guess if I have anything to as obviously we had the big Rocket Cooper deal. I was wondering if you're seeing any effect post that deal on more MSR pricing and supply and just your general thoughts on the servicing space. I know you said you're not really adding at the margin to MSRs at the moment, but just your general thoughts post that massive deal. Thanks.

恭喜你們的解放日，夥計們，這是第一個完整的季度，我想如果我有什麼的話，顯然我們有大型 Rocket Cooper 交易。我想知道您是否看到了有關更多 MSR 定價和供應的任何影響，以及您對服務領域的整體看法。我知道您說過您目前並沒有真正增加 MSR 的邊際，但這只是您對那筆大交易的整體想法。謝謝。

Sure, Ray, can you handle that?

當然，雷，你能處理好嗎？

Yeah, sure, right now, I mean, it's been still pretty quiet, I think with the quarter as a whole you've probably seen that volumes have been lower than they had been prior year. I suspect that going forward, assuming the completion of that, the combination of Rocket and Cooper, the buying impact won't really be all that different than it was before. But you know we haven't really seen any substantial changes in pricing dynamics in the market right now.

是的，當然，現在，我的意思是，它仍然非常安靜，我想從整個季度來看，你可能已經看到交易量低於去年同期。我認為，假設這項交易完成，那麼 Rocket 和 Cooper 的合併對未來的影響與以前相比不會有太大不同。但你知道，我們目前還沒有看到市場定價動態有任何實質變化。

Okay, I appreciate that and as far as EAD goes, you said it might trend a little bit lower going forward. How much of the EAD in in the first quarter was due to the roll off of those expenses associated with internalization?

好的，我很感激，就 EAD 而言，您說它未來可能會略微下降。第一季的 EAD 中有多少是由於內部化相關費用的減少而產生的？

With internalization and the GNA savings, we see it at about $0.02. In the first quarter?

考慮到內部化和GNA節省，我們預計第一季的支出約為0.02美元？

Okay, and forgive me if you mentioned this in your prepared remarks, but going forward you said EAD was going to trend a little bit lower because of what exactly?

好的，如果您在準備好的發言中提到了這一點，請原諒我，但是您說 EAD 未來會略微下降，具體原因是什麼？

Because of the large swap that matured that we were chatting about earlier. So that large swap was contributing, to EAD each quarter as well. And since that one matured in the middle of March, that one is no longer in the portfolio.

因為我們之前討論過的大額掉期已經到期。因此，大額掉期交易對每季的 EAD 也產生了貢獻。由於該債券已於三月中旬到期，因此不再存在於投資組合中。

Got it. Great. Thank you guys and of course, best of luck going forward in this interesting times.

知道了。偉大的。謝謝你們，當然，祝福你們在這個有趣的時代一切順利。

Yeah, thank you.

是的，謝謝。

Thanks, Mikhail.

謝謝，米哈伊爾。

Thank you. There are no further questions at this time. I'd like to turn the call back over to Jay Lown for closing remarks.

謝謝。目前沒有其他問題。我想將電話轉回給傑伊·朗 (Jay Lown) 來做最後發言。

Thanks, operator.

謝謝，接線生。

Thank you for joining us on our first quarter of 2025 earnings call and we look forward to updating you on our second quarter results soon.

感謝您參加我們的 2025 年第一季財報電話會議，我們期待很快向您通報我們的第二季業績。

Thank you for your participation. This does include the program and you may now disconnect. Everyone, have a great day.

感謝您的參與。這確實包括程序，您現在可以斷開連接。祝大家有個愉快的一天。