Banco Santander Brasil SA (BSBR) 2026 Q1 法說會逐字稿

(interpreted) Good afternoon, everyone, and thank you very much for joining us on our first-quarter 2026 earnings conference call. We are live from our headquarters in Sao Paulo, and we will be dividing this event into two parts.

（口譯）各位下午好，非常感謝各位參加我們2026年第一季財報電話會議。我們在聖保羅總部現場連線，本次活動將分為兩個部分。

First, Mario Leao will discuss the key highlights of the quarter and our growth strategy for the coming period as well as an analysis of our financial performance. Afterwards, we will have a Q&A session. At this point, our CFO, Carlos Muniz, will also be joining us. (Operator Instructions) The presentation you are about to give is now available for download on our IR website.

首先，Mario Leao將說明本季的重點亮點、未來一段期間的成長策略，以及對我們財務表現的分析。之後將進行問答環節。屆時，我們的財務長Carlos Muniz也將加入。（接線員指示）您即將聽到的簡報目前已可於我們的投資人關係網站下載。

And now I'll hand it over to Mario, who will begin the presentation.

現在我把時間交給Mario，由他開始簡報。

(interpreted) Thank you, Camilla, and good morning, everyone. It's 10:02, so we're beginning right on time. You will see that the presentation for this quarter is leaner because we want to be able to cover the main takeaways, and then we will jump straight into our Q&A because certainly, we'd like to engage with you.

（口譯）謝謝你，Camilla，各位早安。現在是10點02分，我們準時開始。各位會看到本季簡報更精簡，因為我們希望聚焦主要重點，接著會直接進入問答，因為我們確實希望與各位互動交流。

Starting with the results. Our net income is down quarter on quarter and marginally year on year, and I'll give you more details of this, how we built this quarterly net income. And I would like to draw your attention to the evolution of earnings before tax.

先從結果談起。我們的淨利較上季下滑，年比也小幅下降；我會提供更多細節，說明本季淨利是如何形成的。我也想請各位特別留意稅前盈餘的變化。

This quarter, we grew 5.4% earnings before taxes, meaning that the organic operation of the bank is growing in the direction that we intended to. So our execution, and we will see that with every line breaking down, we will see that our annual growth exceeded 20%. So in practical terms, we are paying more taxes when compared to the last quarter. This is a point that both analysts and investors were questioning us and challenging us. So we are evolving in the direction that we were committed to.

本季我們的稅前盈餘成長5.4%，代表銀行的有機營運正朝我們預期的方向成長。我們的執行力——從各項明細拆解來看——年增率超過20%。因此，實務上相較上一季我們繳納了更多稅金。這一點先前分析師與投資人一直在詢問並對我們提出挑戰；我們正朝著先前承諾的方向推進。

So there are movements associated to our organic operation. And there are also other moves related to the way we are evolving the several entities of Santander Brasil towards having more profitability in the bank itself. And with that, we will be able to absorb capital profitability and earnings as well. So we can talk more about that further on.

因此，這裡既有與我們有機營運相關的變動，也有其他與我們如何推動Santander Brasil旗下多個實體、使其在銀行本體內提升獲利能力相關的調整。藉此，我們也將能吸收資本的獲利與盈餘。我們稍後可以再更深入討論。

So how does this earnings before tax is evolving? Our NII is growing quarter on quarter, 3.1% growth. We will break it down in different lines. Certainly, this also includes market effects, and I'll tell you how we manage the bank in practical terms, not looking too much at the market, but looking at the margin and the entire perimeter of the bank's liability, but it's certainly a positive evolution.

那麼稅前盈餘是如何演進的？我們的淨利息收入（NII）季增3.1%。我們會用不同項目來拆解。當然其中也包含市場因素；我也會說明我們在實務上如何管理銀行——不過度看市場，而是看利差以及銀行負債端的整體範圍——但這確實是正向的進展。

There was a drop in fees of 5.5%, and you will be able to see every line, I mean, what is expected to go down and when do we expect growth? Certainly, we want more. We want to continue to grow fees unproportionately vis-a-vis the portfolio. Of course, we have that on an annual basis. We are growing 1.6 times vis-a-vis the portfolio.

手續費收入下滑5.5%。各位將能看到每一條線：哪些項目預期會下降、以及我們何時預期恢復成長。當然，我們希望更多；我們希望手續費能相對於資產組合（portfolio）以更快速度成長。以年度來看，我們的手續費相對於資產組合成長1.6倍。

Our ROE, due to mathematical effect, the numerator growing and the average PL increasing, which is denominator. In fact, ROE goes back to 16%. This is not an structural number. It's an accounting number. So certainly, our mission is to seek for ROE that will grow throughout the year, seeking for an average ROE that is above the numbers from the past. So our goal is to seek for a 20% ROE, and this is part of our target, and we are working to deliver that bank in the next coming years.

我們的ROE因數學效應——分子成長、而平均股東權益（PL）增加作為分母——因此ROE回到16%。這不是結構性的數字，而是會計上的數字。因此，我們的使命是讓ROE在全年逐步提升，追求平均ROE高於過去水準。我們的目標是追求20%的ROE，這是我們目標的一部分，我們正努力在未來幾年交付這樣的銀行表現。

Our cost of risk is flat. We will give you more details about it and efficiency due to improvements in expenses and controlled cost efficiency increases by 110 percentage points in the quarter.

我們的風險成本持平。我們會提供更多細節；而效率方面，受惠於費用改善與成本控管，本季成本效率提升110個基點。

We have one slide when we talk about the strategy and other figures. But I would like to say that we always start with customer centricity.

在談策略與其他數據時，我們有一張投影片。但我想先說，我們一向從以客戶為中心開始。

So on the left-hand side of the slide, we talk about how we are advancing the numbers. We are growing by 6% in the annual basis of customer growth. So we are growing the franchise, but it matters a lot how much I can extract from all of these customers. We talked about principality, and we are also talking about how we can re-signify our share, focusing on mass retail. We are also growing in our customer franchise.

在投影片左側，我們談的是我們如何推進各項數字。我們的客戶數以年為基礎成長6%。我們正在擴大客戶版圖（franchise），但更重要的是，我能從這些客戶身上取得多少價值。我們談到主辦行（principality），也談到如何重新定義我們的市占，聚焦大眾零售（mass retail）。我們的客戶版圖也在成長。

And on the right-hand side, I talked about something very important that we just launched. Recently, we launched Santander Rewards. This is one of the most important deliveries since I started leading the bank. For the first time, we are bringing this customer relationship and focusing on points, benefits and advantages.

在右側，我談到一個我們剛推出、非常重要的事情：我們近期推出了Santander Rewards。這是自我開始領導銀行以來最重要的交付之一。這是我們第一次把客戶關係帶到以點數、福利與優勢為核心的聚焦。

So instead of the relationship with credit cards that we always had, I mean, if you consume as much, you have a certain number of points or exemptions, but now we are looking at the customer relationship as a whole. So we are privileging customers that also privilege the bank, and we are doing that with a lot of engagement.

因此，不再只是我們過去與信用卡的關係——也就是你消費多少，就有多少點數或減免——而是把客戶關係視為整體來看。我們會優先照顧同樣優先選擇本行的客戶，並且以高度互動的方式來推動。

It's almost like gamification. And with that, in a multichannel way, we have customers even closer to the bank. It's a big launch. The campaign will be will be kicked off on Saturday. I think it's one of the most important events that we will have in Rio. And with that, we will advance this franchise with clients. And this is one of the big pillars we have, as you will see through the numbers.

這幾乎像是遊戲化（gamification）。透過多通路方式，我們讓客戶與銀行的距離更近。這是一個大型發布；活動將於週六啟動。我認為這將是我們在里約舉辦的最重要活動之一。藉此，我們將推進以客戶為核心的版圖，而這也是我們的重要支柱之一，各位將從數字中看到。

Now speaking about data in the portfolio, we are still focusing on the same line. And I've been almost repetitive. Santander wants to grow, but grow with quality, with capital generation, discipline. So every segment that we produce every day, and as you can imagine, we produce hundreds of millions every day, starting with massive retail, private, small-sized companies and large corporate companies. We look at marginal management of profitability of the asset and customer profitability at every disburse.

接著談資產組合（portfolio）的數據，我們仍聚焦在同一條主軸。我幾乎已經反覆強調：Santander想成長，但要以品質、資本生成與紀律來成長。因此，我們每天在各個分群——如各位所想像，我們每天放款規模達數億——從大眾零售、私人銀行、小型企業到大型企業客戶，我們在每一筆撥款時都會檢視資產的邊際獲利管理以及客戶獲利能力。

We've been doing that impeccably in the past few years. Of course, that every month, we look at the performance of everything, and we retro our origination system. But the cohorts that have been produced in the past few years are according to plan. And certainly, this also mixes with the previous and older cohorts.

過去幾年我們一直做得非常到位。當然，每個月我們都會檢視所有項目的表現，並回饋（retro）到我們的授信起案系統。不過，過去幾年所產生的各期群組（cohorts）都符合計畫；而且，這也會與更早期、較舊的cohorts交織在一起。

So when you see growth, which is slightly negative, I look at this construction on a positive side because on the individual portfolio, we are dropping. But that was expected because when you talk about low income, we are reducing a few percentage points in the quarter. This is technical and scientific. And we are doing that according to our schedule.

因此，當你看到成長略為負值時，我反而以正面角度看待這個結構，因為在個人金融資產組合上我們正在下降。但這是預期之內：當談到低收入族群時，我們在本季降低了幾個百分點。這是技術性且科學化的作法，我們正依照既定時程推進。

This is our derisking of low income. And we are -- we've been doing that for quite some time. We know that in 2026 and even part of '27, we will complete the derisking of low income because it takes longer because the low-risk portfolio has a longer duration. So it takes a little bit more time, but we are doing at the right speed.

這就是我們對低收入族群的去風險（derisking）。我們已經做了一段時間。我們知道在2026年、甚至到2027年部分期間，我們將完成低收入族群的去風險，因為這需要較長時間——低風險資產組合的存續期間更長——所以需要多一點時間，但我們正以正確的速度進行。

So this runoff low income put some anchor in the individual portfolio. And I relocate that to the low income that I want to grow and I relocate that to high income and other segments.

因此，低收入族群的自然到期縮減（runoff）對個人金融資產組合形成一些牽制。我會把這部分重新配置到我希望成長的（其他）低收入產品，並且也重新配置到高收入族群與其他分群。

The blend shows a drop in individuals, but that doesn't concern me too much because given seasonality, first quarters versus fourth quarters. As I said, our credit card franchise is one of the leading products, and it's performing quite well. We posted a record fourth quarter with coming record months, and you will see that further on.

組合（blend）顯示個人金融下滑，但我不太擔心，因為考量季節性：第一季相較第四季。如我所說，我們的信用卡版圖是領先產品之一，表現相當好。第四季我們創下紀錄，接下來幾個月也將接近新高，各位稍後會看到。

But real estate credit, we are also evolving quite well. We posted growth in the quarter, and we grew slightly above two digits in the year. And home equity, as we call it, is a product where Santander has the leadership, and we are growing origination by 13 points vis-a-vis traditional home equity. So we're doing more home equity when compared to the past. We have monthly origination that is getting close to BRL400 million, which is almost twice as much when compared to what we did before.

不過在不動產信貸方面，我們也進展良好。本季我們呈現成長，全年成長略高於兩位數。而我們所稱的房屋淨值貸款（home equity）是Santander具領導地位的產品；相較傳統房屋淨值貸款，我們的起案量（origination）成長了13個百分點。因此，相較過去我們做了更多房屋淨值貸款。我們每月起案量已接近4億巴西雷亞爾（BRL），幾乎是過去的兩倍。

In terms of consumer finance, we posted positive growth. And now we are monitoring the market because we do not want to grow more, I mean, disproportionately vis-a-vis the market because we are already leaders. So in practical terms, we are diluting origination and the consumer finance portfolio is the crown jewel. But certainly, we have to do that in a very controlled fashion. And looking at the current scenario, we cannot exceed growth, but we already grew 14 percentage points in our consumer finance operation.

在消費金融方面，我們呈現正成長。現在我們正在監控市場，因為我們不希望相對於市場出現不成比例的過度成長，畢竟我們已是領導者。因此，實務上我們正在分散起案，而消費金融資產組合是皇冠上的明珠。但我們必須以非常受控的方式來做。以目前情勢來看，我們不能超越（市場）成長太多，但我們的消費金融業務仍已成長14個百分點。

In electric vehicles, out of every two e-vehicles, one of them is funded by Santander. We have an aggregated total of 20 to 21, and electric vehicles more. And in terms of some brands, we have two-thirds that gives us 75%. So we have high penetration in electric vehicles because the average ticket is higher.

在電動車方面，每兩輛電動車中，就有一輛是由 Santander 提供融資。我們合計總量約為 20 到 21，且電動車更多。就某些品牌而言，我們有三分之二，等於 75%。因此，我們在電動車的滲透率很高，因為平均單筆金額更高。

New vehicles, the credit performance is better when compared to used vehicles. Therefore, we have concentrated our growth in the consumer finance in EV vehicles. This is also something that generates higher fees. We are growing exponential our capacity to grow per risk-weighted assets.

新車的信貸表現相較於二手車更好。因此，我們把消費金融的成長集中在電動車（EV）上。這也會帶來更高的費用收入。我們正以指數型成長提升在風險加權資產（RWA）下的成長能力。

So between banks and lines of fees, we are doing some impeccable work for small and midsized companies. This is a segment that, for many years, I say that I'm saying that we are not growing proportionately and this growth didn't come in the third quarter. Obviously, we wanted to see a different number. And year on year, it's close to 10%.

因此，在銀行業務與費用線之間，我們為中小企業做了非常出色的工作。這個區隔多年來，我一直在說我們的成長不夠成比例，而這個成長並沒有在第三季出現。顯然，我們希望看到不同的數字。而以年對年來看，接近 10%。

But here, we were more cautious given the macro landscape. So in the segment of very, very small companies, the challenge -- the credit challenge is even higher. So we were less aggressive in the first quarter. But together with high income, this is one of the two segments where we have to grow two-plus digits during the year, and we have to bring quota.

但在這裡，鑑於總體環境，我們更為謹慎。因此，在非常、非常小型企業的區隔，挑戰——信貸挑戰更高。所以我們在第一季較不積極。但與高收入族群一起，這是我們今年必須達到兩位數以上成長的兩個區隔之一，而且我們必須提升市占（quota）。

Large corporate, well, what matter in this quarter was the exchange rate. I mean, we have a very robust trade portfolio in dollars or euros. That was good for the economy, but not so good for the portfolio because the FX effect had an impact. This is not lack of capital or lack of appetite. But as I was saying, it's due to the fact that we are very focused on marginal discipline and cross-selling. So the portfolio evolves 0.4% and the whole portfolio 3.4%. I said that we would grow 1.6%. And this relationship between growing fees and portfolio is something that we are very much focusing on.

大型企業方面，本季最重要的是匯率。也就是說，我們有一個以美元或歐元計價、非常穩健的貿易融資組合。這對經濟有利，但對組合不那麼有利，因為外匯（FX）效果帶來了影響。這不是資本不足或意願不足。而是如我所說，我們非常專注於邊際紀律與交叉銷售。因此，該組合成長 0.4%，而整體組合成長 3.4%。我曾說我們會成長 1.6%。而「費用成長」與「組合成長」之間的這種關係，是我們非常關注的重點。

I already mentioned some highlights on the right side of the slide. I mean, individuals, high income, if you add Select, we are growing 3 percentage points of share. So as we decrease our mass retail, we increase high income. So we have individuals -- I mean high-income individuals that is growing, and this growth will persist for at least two more years.

我已在投影片右側提到一些重點。也就是說，個人客戶中的高收入族群，如果加上 Select，我們的市占提升了 3 個百分點。因此，當我們降低大眾零售（mass retail）比重時，我們提高高收入族群比重。所以我們的個人——也就是高收入個人客戶正在成長，而且這個成長至少還會持續兩年。

Well, the next point is the NII. As I said earlier, our growth is very good quarter on quarter of 3.1% NII composition is more due to market NII rather than client NII. Client NII experienced a 4% drop. I mean when you look at clients, both terms of margins and fees, the delta removes about BRL300 million between fees and NII. I mean the day effect is not lower.

下一點是淨利息收入（NII）。如我先前所說，我們的季對季成長非常好，NII 成長 3.1%。NII 的組成更多來自市場 NII，而非客戶 NII。客戶 NII 下滑了 4%。也就是說，當你看客戶端，不論是利差或費用，兩者的差異合計大約減少了 3 億巴西雷亞爾（BRL）的費用與 NII。我是說，日數效應並不是更低。

But the way we've been managing the bank, and we've been managing the bank this way for two years, we report NII -- market NII and client NII assets and liabilities separately but our ALM is measured according to the perimeter of liabilities as a whole.

但我們管理銀行的方式——而且我們兩年來一直這樣管理——是將 NII 分別揭露為市場 NII 與客戶 NII，並將資產與負債分開呈現；但我們的資產負債管理（ALM）是依負債整體範圍來衡量。

In September of 2024, we started to do a marginal hedge of provision. It's a very dynamic hedge between 50% to 60% every day, which will lead us to an average of 75% 1 year and 9 months. If it is dynamic in practical terms, this reduces the volatility of the balance and also short-term interest rates. And it also decreases the low -- I mean, the rollover of assets and liabilities. And together with that, we extended our very short-term securities that was very -- that was sensitive to coupon. And so now we are focusing on long-term bonds because they allow us to get better results through time with results embodied in mark-to-market.

在 2024 年 9 月，我們開始對準備金做邊際避險（marginal hedge）。這是一種每天在 50% 到 60% 之間動態調整的避險，將使我們在 1 年 9 個月的期間達到平均 75%。若以實務角度來看，這會降低資產負債表的波動性，也降低短期利率波動。同時也降低——我是說，資產與負債的再融資（rollover）。此外，我們延長了原本非常短天期、對票息（coupon）很敏感的證券部位。現在我們更聚焦於長天期債券，因為它們讓我們能隨時間取得更好的結果，且成果會反映在按市價評價（mark-to-market）中。

When you look at our financial management, this was added to the expanded ALM view. ALM is not just measured by the growth results that reflects in market NII. But in the different committees, we manage liability as a whole.

當你看我們的財務管理時，這已被納入擴展的 ALM 視角。ALM 不僅以反映在市場 NII 的成長結果來衡量；在不同的委員會中，我們是以負債整體來管理。

The expanded perimeter that contemplates NII and client NII and ALM. So we evaluate the teams like that, and we analyze the numbers. I mean, the entire market breaks it down as it is here. I just wanted to make a parenthesis because at the end, we are not very much concerned if the client NII per liability is performing well because everything is going in the right direction.

也就是說，擴展的範圍同時涵蓋 NII、客戶 NII 與 ALM。我們以此方式評估團隊並分析數字。也就是說，整個市場會像這裡一樣拆解。我只是想補充一句，因為到最後，我們並不太擔心客戶 NII 相對於負債的表現是否很好，因為一切都朝正確方向前進。

If it were not for the accounting effects of the [49-66], the spread would be better. I can do the derisking in low income and then I can allocate this capital into other segments. I mean the spread is flat, and that is very good.

如果不是因為 [49-66] 的會計效果，利差會更好。我可以在低收入族群做去風險（derisking），然後把這些資本配置到其他區隔。也就是說，利差持平，而這非常好。

The second message is for the first time probably in the whole history of the bank, we have the individuals portfolio that is capturing -- I mean, funding better than the corporate portfolio. One of the golden rules of our management is that we evolved the funding mix of the bank. We are not where we wanted to be yet. We wanted to reach 60-40, but we reached 51-49. This not only reflects our transactional performance, not only in retail, but also in the individual portfolio because it costs less to fund individuals.

第二個訊息是，可能是銀行史上第一次，我們的個人客戶組合在吸收——也就是說，在資金來源（funding）上比企業組合做得更好。我們管理的一條黃金法則，是優化銀行的資金結構（funding mix）。我們還沒到達想要的位置。我們希望達到 60-40，但目前是 51-49。這不僅反映我們的交易性表現，不只在零售端，也反映在個人客戶組合上，因為以個人客戶籌資的成本更低。

The second point is that, in our low income or mass retail, there was an evolution of a margin of 100. There was a drop from '24 to '25 from 100 to 99. But there was 8 percentage points. This same segment with the same cut, I mean, the transactional deposits out of 100, it increased to 106 on year one. But this year, there was an increase of 16 additional points.

第二點是，在我們的低收入或大眾零售（mass retail）中，利差有 100 的變化。從 2024 到 2025，從 100 降到 99。但有 8 個百分點。同一個區隔、同樣的切分來看，也就是交易性存款在 100 之中，第一年增加到 106。但今年又額外增加了 16 個百分點。

Looking at the last 12 months, I grew by 600 percentage points in terms of deposits with the same liability. So one was negative and the other one was positive. This shows that we are managing to focus in the mass retail, yeah, it's a little bit lower, but much more profitable. And this, with time, will show in the books certainly.

看過去 12 個月，在相同負債下，我的存款以百分點計增加了 600。也就是一個是負的，另一個是正的。這顯示我們正在聚焦於大眾零售：是的，規模略低，但獲利能力更高。而這隨著時間推移，肯定會在帳面上反映出來。

Speaking about commissions, this is a line that, in the fourth quarter to the first quarter, this offers some pressure, typically a reduction. I look at 5.5% and of course, it positive in Q1. But when I look at the breakdown, some of the numbers are explained by seasonality. Others, we did quite well and others we need to improve.

談到手續費（commissions），這是一條在第四季到第一季通常會有壓力、也就是通常會下降的線。我看到 5.5%，當然在第一季是正成長。但當我看拆解，有些數字可由季節性解釋；有些我們做得相當好；有些則需要改善。

So cards, that's where we have seasonality. Since we grew and we grew cards with quality with a sound portfolio throughout last year. And in the last quarter, we had our all-time high. So we had a seasonality that points to a drop, but year on year, we practically grew two digits. And this is quality fees with a credit level in revolving credit and installments that have earnings and very good profitability.

因此，卡片業務是我們有季節性的地方。因為去年我們成長，而且以良好品質成長卡片業務，整體組合很健全。而在上一季，我們達到歷史新高。所以季節性指向下滑，但以年對年來看，我們幾乎達到兩位數成長。這是高品質的費用收入，且在循環信用與分期付款的信貸水準上帶來收益與非常好的獲利能力。

The insurance business should have felt that even greater seasonality in Q1. Well, it showed a drop of practically zero year on year, clear two-digit growth. So we're happy about that. This is less insurance-related insurance associated with credit because we are less aggressive in growing portfolio. So we did even better in open insurance, which is not related.

保險業務在第一季本應感受到更強的季節性。不過，年對年幾乎是零下滑，仍是明確的兩位數成長。因此我們對此感到滿意。這裡較少是與信貸相關的保險，因為我們在組合成長上較不積極。所以我們在開放式保險（open insurance）上做得更好，這部分是不相關的。

And then we have -- in current account services, we've had a reduction, but we have dropped less than the market. The market feels the pressure of what we call free accounts, accounts with no commissions. It's natural. It's healthy, but we are able to engage our individuals and corporate clients so that we would drop less than some of our competitors. So this is a number that I also see as positive credit operations.

接著，在活期帳戶服務方面，我們有所下降，但我們的降幅小於市場。市場承受我們所稱的「免手續費帳戶」（free accounts）、也就是不收取佣金的帳戶所帶來的壓力。這很自然，也很健康，但我們能夠提升個人與企業客戶的黏著度，使得我們的降幅小於部分競爭對手。因此，這個數字我也視為正面，屬於信貸作業（credit operations）。

A drop due to seasonality, and because we are being less aggressive in granting loans to some portfolios, it's not a number I like to see, but it's explained by a lower production. And asset management. we have two positives here.

由於季節性下滑，加上我們在對某些組合放款上較不積極，這不是我喜歡看到的數字，但可由較低的承作量（production）解釋。至於資產管理，我們這裡有兩個正面因素。

In consortiums, we are growing at a higher pace. I want a lot more than that. I said earlier today to the whole organization that I expect to grow double that quarter on quarter. I think we're going to manage.

在聯合購買（consortiums）方面，我們正以更快的速度成長。我希望遠不止如此。我今天稍早對整個組織說，我期望季對季成長能達到那個數字的兩倍。我認為我們做得到。

But this is more recent growth in asset management. Well, we had an effect in Q4 and we have to look at that 20.9% up year on year, which shows that our asset franchise, it's lower than the rest of the bank, proportionally speaking. So we need to grow and we are going to grow.

但這是資產管理較近期的成長。嗯，我們在第四季有一個效應，而我們必須看年對年成長 20.9%，這顯示我們的資產管理特許經營（asset franchise）相較於銀行其他業務，按比例來說仍偏小。因此我們需要成長，而且我們會成長。

It's not -- we don't aim to double it, but rather to triple it. But we have an annual increase pace, which is quite good.

不是——我們的目標不是把它翻倍，而是要把它翻三倍。但我們有一個年度增長節奏，表現相當不錯。

In securities, brokerage, and placement, we did quite well in the quarter. Two strong line items, securities, brokerage, and capital markets, one of the strongest quarters we've had. And in collection services, a very good quarter. Others, there are some effects of portfolio, sales, and others, but nothing that will really drop or call our attention.

在證券、經紀與承銷（配售）方面，我們本季表現相當好。證券、經紀與資本市場這兩個強勁的科目，創下我們最強的季度之一。而在代收服務方面，也是一個非常好的季度。其他項目方面，投資組合、銷售等有一些影響，但沒有任何會真正下滑或引起我們特別關注的事情。

The highlights, cards continue to evolve well. We grew almost 20% our credit card turnover. In insurance, we have new lower-ticket products, [Maodaconta and Cart]. These two new products evolving quite well. And also, we have high insurance or high-value insurance to the network clients -- high-net worth clients. And we have the consumer finance cross-selling in consortia, we have fixed bid and reduced installments. So these are the two highlights for consortium.

亮點方面，信用卡業務持續良好演進。我們的信用卡交易額成長了將近20%。在保險方面，我們推出了新的低客單價產品，[Maodaconta 和 Cart]。這兩個新產品的發展相當不錯。此外，我們也向網點客戶——高淨值客戶——提供高額保險或高價值保險。另在財團（consortia）方面，我們進行消費金融交叉銷售，推出固定出價與降低分期金額。因此，這是財團業務的兩個亮點。

In terms of the asset quality, there's a lot here. I'll try to be brief so we can speak more about this during the Q&A.

就資產品質而言，這裡有很多內容。我會盡量簡短，這樣我們可以在問答環節再更深入討論。

Number one, cost of risk. It is dropping some basis points in the quarter. NPL is increasing, but it is increasing, in my view, at a very acceptable pace. And this is explained primarily by a reduction in recovery. And this is explained by a reduction in the sale of portfolios.

第一，風險成本。本季下降了幾個基點。不良貸款（NPL）在上升，但在我看來，上升速度非常可接受。這主要是因為回收（recovery）下降所致。而回收下降又是因為不良資產組合（portfolio）出售減少。

We sold fewer portfolios. We had an on-block recovery. And I would say that business as usual was kind of stable considering the macroeconomic context. So given the context in some portfolios that remain concerning -- and I mentioned them, SMEs, small companies in agribusiness we have a challenge, although I expect a much better year or a less worse year. Last year was bad for the whole market. And we expect a relative improvement, but every business still a little challenging and very small micro companies being a challenge.

我們出售的資產組合更少。我們有一筆大宗（on-block）的回收。我會說，在宏觀經濟背景下，日常經營（business as usual）基本保持穩定。因此，在仍然令人擔憂的部分資產組合背景下——我也提到過，包括中小企業（SMEs）、農業綜合企業中的小公司——我們面臨挑戰，儘管我預期今年會好很多，或至少沒那麼糟。去年整個市場都很糟。我們預期會相對改善，但各項業務仍有些挑戰，尤其是非常小的微型企業仍是一大挑戰。

And cards is a business that is doing really well, but we have minor adjustments to make because the families are very much indebted. And now the government should launch a new program to deal with that in a matter of two days. So NPL is doing well. Cost of risk dropping NPL practically flat in the full year. It remains at the same levels. So we are not constrained here.

信用卡業務表現確實很好，但我們需要做一些小幅調整，因為家庭負債程度很高。政府應該會在兩天內推出一個新計畫來處理這個問題。因此，NPL 表現良好。風險成本下降，全年 NPL 幾乎持平，維持在相同水準。所以我們在這方面沒有受到限制。

And when we look at 15- to 90-day NPL over 90. In the short term, 15- to 90-day NPL, we see companies dropping a little in the quarter, and there's a component here in companies associated with government programs, and this doesn't become a loss. And then individuals in 15 to 90-day NPL is a slight increase, and this is linked to consumer finance and mortgages.

當我們看 15 至 90 天的 NPL 以及 90 天以上的 NPL。短期來看，15 至 90 天 NPL 中，公司端本季略有下降，其中有一部分與政府計畫相關，而這不會形成損失。至於個人端的 15 至 90 天 NPL 則略有上升，這與消費金融與房貸相關。

We -- the rollover of NPL to longer term when the stages change is quite contained. So we believe that in these two portfolios in Q2, we should have a reversal and thus, we won't have an increase in over 90-day NPL.

我們——當分期（stages）變動時，NPL 滾動到更長逾期區間的情況相當受控。因此我們相信，在第二季這兩個資產組合應會出現回轉，因而 90 天以上 NPL 不會增加。

Over 90-day NPL has some effects here. One of them is, in Q4 last year, we did a technical review of each portfolio in our income and consumer finance. And we decided that instead of writing off as losses in Q4, we started managing the portfolio, portfolio by portfolio, doing it very technically, sometimes anticipating the write-offs as losses and sometimes working in the opposite way. So this had some effect in Q4.

90 天以上 NPL 這裡有一些影響因素。其中之一是，去年第四季我們對收入與消費金融的每個資產組合做了技術性檢視。我們決定不在第四季直接核銷為損失，而是開始逐一管理各資產組合，以非常技術性的方式進行：有時提前核銷為損失，有時則採取相反做法。因此這在第四季產生了一些影響。

There's some effect now of lengthening the average maturity of the portfolio. And this is what drove up over 90-day NPL. But of course, we continue with our discipline of writing off everything that we don't believe we can recover. And then we try to offset that by selling the portfolio.

目前還有一個影響是資產組合平均到期日拉長。這就是推升 90 天以上 NPL 的原因。但當然，我們仍維持紀律，對於我們認為無法回收的部分一律核銷。接著我們會嘗試透過出售資產組合來抵銷。

I mentioned that there is pressure from agribusiness, low income and very small companies. very small enterprises. So there are parts of our portfolio that require more attention, efficient over all, but would be more attention to some. And these are the ones that are related to an increase in NPL.

我提到農業綜合企業、低收入族群以及非常小的公司、微型企業帶來壓力。因此，我們的部分資產組合需要更多關注；整體而言仍有效率，但某些部分需要更高關注度。而這些正是與 NPL 上升相關的部分。

Talking about expenses, that's another quarter, which I believe we delivered quite well. It's very much in keeping with what I've been saying over and over the years. We have a fine management of the lines that we can control. It's our obligation to do it. It doesn't mean it's easy.

談到費用，這又是一個我認為我們交出相當好成績的季度。這非常符合我多年來一再強調的：我們對可控費用線有精細管理。這是我們的責任，但並不代表容易。

We have FX pressure this year. FX helped us, but not last year, inflation, collective bargaining agreement, now technology and of course, the effect of the war abroad. So we are able to offset all of that with a firm management. We are delivering a quarter with practically zero growth in expenses.

今年我們面臨匯率（FX）壓力。匯率曾經幫助我們，但去年沒有；還有通膨、集體談判協議（collective bargaining agreement），現在還有科技投入，當然也包括海外戰爭的影響。因此我們能以嚴謹的管理來抵銷這些因素。我們本季交出幾乎零費用成長的表現。

When we break down what is general and what is depreciation and amortization, we're actually reducing our expenses by 0.7% in the quarter and in an annualized way, 0.3%. So we break this down into administrative and personnel. Of course, we look at both.

當我們拆分一般費用與折舊攤銷（depreciation and amortization）時，實際上本季費用下降 0.7%，年化下降 0.3%。我們再把它拆成行政與人員費用；當然兩者我們都會看。

And we are reducing our personnel, our headcount. We continue -- we did that last year. We continue to do this. We want to have a more streamlined and more efficient organization.

而且我們正在縮減人員編制（headcount）。我們持續——去年就這麼做了，現在也持續進行。我們希望打造更精簡、更高效率的組織。

Expenses increased because we are investing in technology. There's a technology expansion. It's positive. So it's 0% quarter on quarter and 0.9% increase year on year. Of course, I want to grow revenue more, but by growing revenue, you see and maintaining our expenses flat, our efficiency dropped 10 basis points, which is good.

費用之所以增加，是因為我們在投資科技，科技擴張是正面的。因此，季度環比為 0%，同比增加 0.9%。當然，我希望營收成長更多；但在營收成長、同時維持費用持平的情況下，我們的效率比率改善了 10 個基點，這是好的。

Some highlights, cost to serve in Select, dropping 19%. I didn't have to reduce the cost of Select so much because I have a very profitable segment, with ROE close to 20%, but it's healthy to do it, and we continue to engage our clients.

一些亮點：Select 客群的服務成本下降 19%。其實我不必把 Select 的成本降這麼多，因為這是一個非常獲利的客群，ROE 接近 20%；但這樣做是健康的，而且我們也持續與客戶互動。

In net income, cost dropped 44% positive. But I want even more and the team knows that we have to improve this by another 30% in the next two years so that we can have net income segment virtually as cheap as the digital banks so that we can serve them in the best way possible. We are growing 22% our expenses in business expansion and technology, while we reduced 3% our recurring expenses.

在淨利方面，成本下降 44%，這是正面的。但我希望更多，團隊也知道：我們必須在未來兩年再改善 30%，讓淨利客群的服務成本幾乎能與數位銀行一樣低，才能以最佳方式服務他們。我們在業務擴張與科技方面的費用成長 22%，同時把經常性費用降低了 3%。

Lastly, I'll speak a little bit about gravity. We've spoken about it. The group talks a lot about gravity. But to keep you on the same page, gravity means Santander no longer processing the whole bank, not having those expensive mainframes that you pay to buy and then you pay to consume. We would stop processing on mainframe and start processing the big in what we call low platform, which are a modern, flexible and efficient platforms.

最後，我想談一下 gravity。我們已經談過，集團也常談 gravity。為了讓大家理解一致，gravity 的意思是：Santander 不再用昂貴的大型主機（mainframes）處理整個銀行的運算——你先付費購買，之後還要付費使用。我們將停止在大型主機上處理，改為在我們所稱的 low platform 上處理大型運算；這些是現代化、彈性且高效率的平台。

Annualized once we deploy gravity, which we expect to happen in Q3, ideally in the beginning of Q3, in an annualized view, the deployment of gravity should bring us savings close to BRL400 million a year. To give you an idea of how relevant it is almost 2 percentage points of the expenses line item of the bank. And of course, we are looking at all initiatives that can bring us to that point.

一旦我們部署 gravity（我們預期在第三季發生，理想情況是第三季初），以年化角度來看，gravity 的部署應可帶來接近每年 4 億巴西雷亞爾（BRL400 million）的節省。讓大家了解其重要性：這幾乎相當於本行費用科目約 2 個百分點。當然，我們也在檢視所有能把我們帶到那個目標的措施。

When we think about AI, AI touches practically everything. We are looking at AI and efficiency agenda and also the growth agenda. In our Investor Day in February, the group committed to generate BRL1 billion by 2028 of results derived from artificial intelligence. Given the relevance of Brazil, this number is about EUR200 million.

當我們思考 AI，AI 幾乎觸及所有事情。我們同時從 AI 的效率議程與成長議程來看。在 2 月的投資人日（Investor Day），集團承諾到 2028 年由人工智慧帶來的成果將達到 10 億巴西雷亞爾（BRL1 billion）。考量巴西的重要性，這個數字約為 2 億歐元（EUR200 million）。

So we have committed in practice in 2028 to have this kind of efficiency. But to give an order of magnitude, this year, if we add all of the initiatives on AI, we should have something between BRL400 million and BRL500 million due to a more mass use of AI.

因此，實務上我們承諾在 2028 年達到這樣的效率。但為了提供量級概念，今年若把所有 AI 相關措施加總，因為更大規模使用 AI，我們應可帶來約 4 億至 5 億巴西雷亞爾（BRL400 million 到 BRL500 million）的效益。

This -- and let's talk about our income statement. We spoke about each one of these slides. But the top line, growing. Of course, it needs to grow and grow more. It will grow more over time, but it is growing positively with a mix dynamic, which is more and more balanced.

這——接著談我們的損益表。我們已逐一談過這些投影片。但營收端（top line）在成長。當然，它需要成長且要成長更多；隨時間推進它會成長更多，但目前在組合動態上呈現正向成長，而且組合愈來愈均衡。

The direction is clearly correct and the mix is also correct, but we have to work to improve speed. The mid lines, expenses, others provisions, although growing a little, they're behaving well. Putting it all together, given the operating leverage of the operation takes us to a very positive evolution of earnings before tax.

方向顯然是正確的，組合也正確，但我們必須努力提升速度。中段項目——費用、其他提存（others provisions）——雖然略有成長，但表現良好。綜合來看，憑藉營運槓桿，帶動稅前盈餘呈現非常正向的演進。

We have DTAs, we have capital and net income reduces. But mathematically speaking, I think that we are at a very healthy state. This is the organic view of the franchise growing, leading us to a CET1 Basel ratio that are very healthy, 15.2% Basel ratio and 11.2% CET1. And we will continue with our distribution policy with IOC, for example. And as the profits grow, distribution will grow as well.

我們有DTA，我們有資本，而淨利也在下降。但從數學角度來看，我認為我們處於非常健康的狀態。這是特許經營有機成長的觀點，帶動我們的CET1巴塞爾比率非常健康：巴塞爾比率15.2%，CET1為11.2%。我們也將持續執行我們的分配政策，例如IOC。隨著獲利成長，分配也會同步成長。

With this, I will end, and I'll call Camila to start with the Q&A. During the Q&A for the first time, we're going to have Carlos Muniz, our new CFO, sitting with me.

到這裡我就結束了，接下來我請Camila開始Q&A。在這次Q&A中，我們將首次由我們的新CFO Carlos Muniz與我一同坐在台上。

(interpreted) I agree with him that I will answer all of the questions, but he'll be sitting next to me. And if he wants to add anything, of course, he may do so. Thank you very much. Let's continue moving to the Q&A.

（口譯）我同意他的說法，我會回答所有問題，但他會坐在我旁邊。如果他想補充任何內容，當然也可以。非常感謝。我們繼續進入Q&A。

(interpreted) (Operator Instructions) Thiago Batista, UBS.

（口譯）（接線員指示）UBS的Thiago Batista。

(interpreted) Mario, I don't know whether this is your last call or whether you will be present in the next call. My question is about [dizzing hola], the government program. I think we are about to hear about this new funding program. We know that this will involve low income, credit card, consumer finance and overdraft.

（口譯）Mario，我不確定這是不是你最後一次電話會議，或你是否會出席下一次。我想問的是關於[dizzing hola]這個政府計畫。我想我們很快就會聽到這個新的融資計畫。我們知道這將涵蓋低收入族群、信用卡、消費金融以及透支。

Can you tell us a little bit about your view about this new finance program to be announced? What is the impact you think that this will have in your balance sheet in the coming years in terms of the no monetization of PTA?

你能否談談你對即將公布的這個新融資計畫的看法？你認為未來幾年在資產負債表上，特別是就PTA不貨幣化（no monetization of PTA）而言，會帶來什麼影響？

(interpreted) Well, at first, this is my last participation in this earnings release presentation. So I hope I will be still close to all of you. And I'll be always cheering for the bank and supporting the banking whatever is needed.

（口譯）首先，這將是我最後一次參與這場財報發布簡報。所以我希望仍能與各位保持密切聯繫。我也會一直為銀行加油，並在需要時支持銀行業務。

I talked to the press not very long ago, and I would just like to say the same thing to all of you. I believe that this program, dizzing hola, indeed necessary. It's been very well designed. I mean it's being led by the Minister of Trade. They are also calling the banks to design this program together.

我不久前和媒體談過，我也想對各位說同樣的話。我相信這個計畫dizzing hola確實是必要的，而且設計得很好。它是由商務部長主導，他們也邀請銀行一起共同設計這個計畫。

This was not something done by a lab in Brazilia and then the banks would have to deploy it, but it has relevant advances vis-a-vis the platform back in 2023. So maybe that's why the volume was not as high as expected. But now each bank will do that through their own channels, even though the framework will be shared by all banks, but all the banks will be able to engage that in their tracks in this -- dizzing hola 2 program.

這不是在巴西利亞的實驗室裡做出來、然後要求銀行去落地執行的方案；相較於2023年的平台，它有重要的改進。也許這就是當時量能沒有如預期高的原因。但現在每家銀行都會透過自己的渠道來做，雖然框架會由所有銀行共享，但各家銀行都能依照自身節奏在這個——dizzing hola 2計畫中推動。

Why do I say that this is important? And why do I say that this is the right timing. We are looking at the same data. In fact, despite of the fact that inflation is coming down, the economy is growing due to a miracle. Despite all of the facts, the level of household debt and available income is critical. And that's why the NPL levels are bad.

為什麼我說這很重要？為什麼我說時機正確？我們看的是同一組數據。事實上，儘管通膨正在下降，經濟卻像奇蹟般成長。儘管如此，家庭負債水準與可支配所得的狀況仍然很嚴峻。這也是為什麼不良貸款（NPL）水準偏高。

We didn't have any advance in terms of the income level of the families in the past few years. That's why the program makes a lot of sense right now. And all the parts that the government will announce about the program. All the new steps make sense.

過去幾年家庭收入水準並沒有任何提升，所以這個計畫在此刻非常合理。政府即將公布的計畫內容，以及所有新的步驟，都很有道理。

We participated in the design of the new phase of the program, and I'm sure it will be a successful program. And I see -- and I think that there will be millions of Brazilians joining the program. So I think the delay -- the payment only the NPL will be above 90 days, and people will have a chance to negotiate their debt much better now. So it does make sense. It will happen. And the bank since we are participating in this new design, they will be able to participate in Santander will be one of those banks.

我們參與了該計畫新階段的設計，我確信它會成功。我也認為——會有數以百萬計的巴西人加入這個計畫。因此我認為延遲——付款只會在NPL超過90天時才會發生，而民眾將有機會更好地協商他們的債務。所以這確實合理。它會發生。而銀行既然參與了這次新的設計，就能參與其中，Santander也會是參與的銀行之一。

So this is about dizzing hola. And I'm not at the liberty of saying anything else because we hope that the government will announce it in full.

以上就是關於dizzing hola。除此之外我不便多說，因為我們希望政府能完整對外公布。

About DTAs, the deferred tax assets, there are many things that are at play here at the same time. We already have a relevant DTA base, not only us, but the industry as a whole, some more or less. But this topic of DTA according to the accounting criteria that will change -- that changed after 2025, everybody accumulated DTAs.

關於DTA（遞延所得稅資產），同時有很多因素在作用。我們已經有相當可觀的DTA基礎，不只我們，整個產業也是如此，只是多寡不同。但依照會計準則的DTA議題——在2025年之後變更——大家都累積了DTA。

But in 2025, you were not obliged to launch that DTA in your accounting book. But by now, we had 120 percentage since December '21 is now posted in our results, and this is competing with the marginal ALL. The combination of what was in the past combined with historical ALL, this generates a lot of taxes.

但在2025年，你並不被要求在帳上認列該DTA。不過到目前為止，自2021年12月以來的120個百分點已經反映在我們的損益中，並且與邊際ALL相互競爭。過去的組合加上歷史ALL的影響，會產生大量稅負。

So I briefly mentioned that since last year, we've been coordinated according to what is correct. We are trying to coordinate all of the results of instruments that have less DTA and sometimes they pay less taxes to our consumer finance, and we are placing all the results to the bank. So I generate more profits because I can observe DTA faster.

我簡要提到，自去年起，我們一直依照正確方向進行協調。我們嘗試協調那些DTA較少、且有時繳稅較少的工具之損益到我們的消費金融，並把所有結果放回銀行本體。如此我能產生更多利潤，因為我可以更快地使用（消化）DTA。

But on the other hand, I am leading this result to pay more taxes when compared to the other entities. So in the short term, I am reducing net income, and I am assigning to other instruments that pay more. So you're increasing your own working capital in practical terms. So at the most, this will generate -- so this tectonic plates in our balance sheet, they are happening as we speak. And so through this reorganization, all of the legal instruments, what we want is to boost the earnings of Santander.

但另一方面，與其他實體相比，我也在推動這些結果去繳更多稅。因此短期內我會降低淨利，並把結果分配到繳稅較多的工具上。實務上等於是在增加你自己的營運資本。所以最多會產生——我們資產負債表上的這些板塊移動（tectonic plates）正在發生。透過這次重組、以及所有法律工具的調整，我們想要的是提升Santander的獲利。

So you will see that Banco Santander Brasil S.A. will show better results vis-a-vis other instruments at our plant. But the organic operation will have to grow, and it will grow in the several lines, but we will have to grow in the banks so that the organic that comes apart from the reallocation in other instruments will allow us to offer more taxes and then therefore, we'll be able to absorb more DTAs.

因此你會看到Banco Santander Brasil S.A.相較於我們架構中的其他工具，將呈現更好的結果。但有機營運必須成長，而且會在多條業務線成長；不過我們必須讓銀行本體成長，這樣除了在其他工具間重新配置之外的有機成長，才能讓我們繳更多稅，進而吸收更多DTA。

We hope that we will be able to absorb all DTAs in the first, second and third quarter. We think we will be able to absorb all the DTAs we want in the first quarters of '27, '28, but this will certainly depend on the evolution of the commercial activity, but we are taking all the necessary measures to optimize the consumption of DTAs in the bank. That's it.

我們希望能在第一、第二與第三季吸收所有DTA。我們認為在2027、2028年的前幾季，我們可以吸收我們想要吸收的所有DTA，但這肯定取決於商業活動的演變；不過我們正在採取所有必要措施，以最佳化銀行內DTA的使用。以上。

Daniel Vaz, Safra Bank.

Safra Bank的Daniel Vaz。

(interpreted) I would like to talk about SMEs and try to get more details on the NPL levels for SMEs. I know that there are several aspects that impacted this decline in NPL. I would just like to understand how much of that comes from this block and what sizes of companies or whether there is any specific size of company?

（口譯）我想談談中小企業（SMEs），並嘗試取得更多關於SME不良貸款（NPL）水準的細節。我知道有多個因素影響了NPL的下降。我只是想了解其中有多少來自這個區塊，以及是哪些規模的公司，或是否有特定規模的公司？

And also, if you could elaborate more on whether this will continue to increase in the next quarters? I mean there are also cohorts that were originated in the past and the government funding not FGI but FGO so that they can disburse more in the program. So please, if you could elaborate more on this subject.

另外，你能否進一步說明這在接下來幾季是否會持續上升？我的意思是，過去承作的批次（cohorts）也在其中，還有政府資金不是FGI而是FGO，讓他們能在計畫中撥付更多資金。所以請你就這個主題多談一些。

(interpreted) Well, I'll try. I hope my voice is better. Well, first of all. About the program, about 25% or 30% of the portfolio goes to government lines, and this is where most of the delays occur. But having said that, there is a pressure on SMEs. So this is a point of attention, no doubt about it.

（口譯）好，我試著回答。我希望我的聲音好一點。首先，關於這個計畫，大約25%或30%的投資組合屬於政府授信線，而大多數逾期都發生在這裡。但即便如此，中小企業仍面臨壓力。所以這無疑是一個需要關注的重點。

Macro affects that segment. So that's a point of attention. So proportionately, I want to grow there more than in other segments. But I'm not going to do that by using a remote control. So this quarter, we didn't grow because we prefer to be more at the margin of that. But from now on, we will look for opportunities to grow more and we'll try to grow two digits sequentially in the next coming years. But as a whole, this is a portfolio that really demands close attention.

總體環境（macro）會影響該細分市場，所以這是需要關注的點。相對而言，我希望那裡的成長高於其他細分市場。但我不會用遙控器式的方式去做。因此本季我們沒有成長，因為我們更傾向於保持在較保守的邊際。但從現在開始，我們會尋找更多成長機會，並嘗試在未來幾年逐季達到兩位數的序列成長。不過整體而言，這是一個確實需要密切關注的投資組合。

And in terms of the continuity of the numbers going forward. Well, Daniel, it's hard to say that it's going to happen. But with a very tough macro and interest rates increasing less -- I mean, if there is a drop of one or two for this audience, it doesn't make a lot of difference. But it affects the entire scenario. So for Brazil to grow 1% or 2% for this world of service or retail, it does make a lot of difference, maybe more than 1 point here or there in terms of interest rates. So it is possible that the delinquency may go up.

至於未來數字是否能延續，Daniel，這很難說。但在非常艱難的總體環境下、且利率上升幅度變小——我的意思是，對在座各位而言，降一兩個點差別不大，但它會影響整體情境。對巴西而言，經濟成長1%或2%對服務業或零售這個世界影響很大，可能比利率多或少1個點更重要。因此逾期率確實有可能上升。

You talk about FGO and the government will certainly announce that when the right time comes. But we also know that the government will certainly support Pronamp and FGI. The government is sensitive enough both BNDES and the treasury department, they are looking at that. So we do not believe that -- we believe that both things and dizzing hola will be managed together.

你提到 FGO，政府一定會在適當的時機宣布。但我們也知道政府一定會支持 Pronamp 和 FGI。政府對 BNDES 與財政部都相當敏感，他們正在關注這件事。因此我們不認為——我們相信這兩件事以及 dizzing hola 都會一起被管理。

Mario Pierry, Bank of America.

Mario Pierry，美國銀行。

(interpreted) I would like to thank you for the partnership in recent years. And I'd like to wish you a lot of success in the next steps of your career. I would like to double-click on the auto loan portfolio. You said that your market leaders, 20% market share. We continue to see healthy growth of the portfolio. But when we look at Brazilian Central Bank data, we see the delinquency in that segment was 130 basis points year on year.

（口譯）我想感謝你們近年來的合作，也祝福你在職涯下一步一切順利、非常成功。我想更深入談一下汽車貸款組合。你提到你們是市場領導者，市占率 20%。我們持續看到該組合健康成長。但當我們看巴西央行的數據時，我們看到該細分市場的逾期率年增 130 個基點。

So I'd like to know how do you see this segment still with high interest rates, which you mentioned? What gives you confidence to continue to grow that portfolio? In this Central Bank data pointing to a worsening of 130 basis points, is there anything contaminating the industry that you're not seeing that we are not seeing? The question is several players changed their write-off policy and perhaps the 130 basis points is a little bit inflated.

因此我想了解，在你提到的高利率環境下，你如何看待這個細分市場？是什麼讓你有信心繼續擴張該組合？在央行數據顯示惡化 130 個基點的情況下，是否有任何正在影響產業、但你們沒有看到（或我們沒有看到）的因素？另外一點是，有幾家同業改變了核銷政策，因此這 130 個基點可能有點被放大。

(interpreted) Thank you, Mario. Thank you for the kind words. It's been a pleasure. We'll continue to be close. Well, I briefly commented when I talked about new cars, new vehicles and EVs. And I mentioned that consumer finance is market leader. I'm not being arrogant about it. But of course, we end up having a gross penetration.

（口譯）謝謝你，Mario。也謝謝你的好意。很高興與你合作，我們會保持密切聯繫。嗯，我在談到新車、新型車輛與電動車（EV）時簡要提過。我也提到消費金融是市場領導者。我不是在自大，但當然，我們最終確實有很高的滲透率。

What do I mean by gross penetration and ability of capacity of origination, which is not 100%, it would be exaggerating. But out of 100 contracts that are applied in the market, we effectively participate in more than 90% of those applications. So we have visibility in the market, which is virtually complete.

我所說的高滲透率，以及放款承作能力的意思是：不是 100%——那會太誇張。但在市場上每 100 份申請合約中，我們實際參與了超過 90% 的申請。因此我們對市場的能見度幾乎是完整的。

Of these 90 applications, we choose to grant 20 auto loans. So there are 70 of those applications that we look at, and we didn't want -- we didn't want them because of the risk return ratio. The margin can be sensing sometimes with the cost of risk, the loan to value and the quality of the collaterals that don't make sense. So we just choose those 20. And that's why I said that we should not grow disproportionately to the market because we would be taking more risk than we want.

在這 90 份申請中，我們選擇核准 20 筆汽車貸款。也就是說，有 70 份申請我們看過，但我們不想要——我們不想承作，因為風險報酬比不合適。有時候利差在風險成本、貸款成數（LTV）以及抵押品品質等因素下並不合理。所以我們只挑那 20 筆。這也是我說我們不應該以高於市場的速度不成比例地成長，因為那會承擔超出我們意願的風險。

How do we read market data compared to ours? Do we see deterioration of the market No. And why not? Because, with this broad and almost total visibility that we have of the market, we can cherry pick where we are going to be placing our bets.

我們如何解讀市場數據並與我們自身比較？我們看到市場惡化了嗎？沒有。為什麼沒有？因為憑藉我們對市場廣泛且幾乎全面的能見度，我們可以精挑細選要把資金押在哪裡。

In recent months, in the last two to three quarters, we have been focusing less on used cars, proportionally speaking, less on motorcycles and focusing more on new vehicles. And in new vehicles, more in EVs. It is not by chance that we got 50% of average quota of origination of loans for EVs. And some of the brands, the ones that are growing the most, I'm not going to mention any names, but the ones growing the most, we have a market share of close to 70%, and we chose to do that.

最近幾個月、過去兩到三個季度，我們相對而言降低了二手車的比重，也降低了機車的比重，並把重心更多放在新車上。而在新車中，又更聚焦在電動車。並非偶然，我們在電動車貸款承作的平均核貸份額達到 50%。而在某些品牌——那些成長最快的品牌，我不點名——我們的市占率接近 70%，而這是我們刻意選擇的結果。

We wanted to prioritize new vehicles that have a much lower delinquency rate than used cars. Of course, we end up granting loans to higher net worth clients, clients with more income, with more financial capacity and with a better rating. So this combo, better rating -- better credit rating, better income. All of that drives our short-term and long-term performance. It doesn't mean that this is not a nervous business. It is. It's not zero cost of risk.

我們希望優先承作新車，因為新車的逾期率遠低於二手車。當然，我們也因此更常核貸給淨值較高的客戶、收入較高的客戶、財務能力更強且評等更好的客戶。這個組合——更好的評等、更好的信用評等、更高的收入——都推動了我們短期與長期的表現。但這不代表這不是一門緊張的業務；它確實是。風險成本不可能是零。

The recovery capacity of Brazil is not equal to that of the US. We have the legal framework of guarantees, but it's far from performing as it is overseas. But the margin is improving, and we continue to be positive. And our business is perhaps 5% or 6% of the whole portfolio, but it is a very healthy business of consumer finance ex auto loans.

巴西的回收能力不如美國。我們有擔保的法律框架，但其運作效能遠不如海外。不過利差正在改善，我們仍然保持正向。而我們的業務可能只占整體組合的 5% 或 6%，但作為消費金融（不含汽車貸款）的業務，它非常健康。

We learned from our mistakes and with what we did right, now we have the verticals in our consumer finance business, which is exactly what we want to have a consolidated and profitable business, both in marginal origination and in the stock. We think about auto loans, which is the core, but we have another part with a very good alpha in margins, but we cannot grow out of proportion because consumer finance in Brazil has to be well done. And we learned the hard way that in some verticals, we cannot operate.

我們從錯誤中學習，也從做對的事情中累積經驗；現在我們在消費金融業務中建立了各個垂直領域（verticals），這正是我們想要的：在新增承作與存量上，都能形成一個整合且具獲利性的業務。我們把汽車貸款視為核心，但我們還有另一部分在利差上有很好的 alpha；然而我們不能不成比例地擴張，因為巴西的消費金融必須做得很到位。我們也痛苦地學到，在某些垂直領域我們無法經營。

But overall, it is a healthy business, a sound business. We're paying attention to the macroeconomic environment, but we continue to operate well. We'll continue to grow along the year. just like the market. But if we grow a little less than the market, that's fine as well because we have the right risk appetite.

但整體而言，這是一門健康、穩健的業務。我們會留意總體經濟環境，但仍持續良好運作。我們會在今年持續成長，與市場同步。但即使我們成長略低於市場也沒關係，因為我們有合適的風險偏好。

Pedro Leduc, Itau BBA.

Pedro Leduc，Itaú BBA。

(interpreted) Congratulations on your trajectory, and I wish you a lot of success. I have two questions. First, when we look at the SMEs portfolio growing 10% year on year, in this macroeconomic context that you mentioned, perhaps you could help us review what should be the strategy looking forward, particularly with this risk opportunity balance? That's number one.

（口譯）恭喜你的職涯軌跡，也祝你未來一切順利。我有兩個問題。第一，當我們看到中小企業（SMEs）組合年增 10%，在你提到的這個總體環境下，也許你可以幫我們回顧一下未來的策略應該是什麼，特別是在風險與機會的平衡上？這是第一個問題。

Second question is about policies of the 49-66 and lengthening of the write-offs. Anything happening in this quarter? The NPL formation was different than NPL. And how should we think about impact on over-90 NPL? What would be the impact of these changes on the coming quarters?

第二個問題是關於 49-66 的政策以及延長核銷（write-offs）。本季度有發生什麼嗎？不良貸款（NPL）的形成與 NPL 不同。那我們應該如何看待對 90 天以上 NPL 的影響？這些變更在接下來幾個季度會造成什麼影響？

(interpreted) All right. I'll start with the second question, Pedro. As I mentioned, and thank you for the kind words. But in Q4, we saw some effect and in Q1, a little more of this effect of the changes in the write-off policy. I'll stress this because it's important that this becomes clear.

（口譯）好的，Pedro。我先回答第二個問題。如我所提，也謝謝你的好意。在第四季我們看到一些影響，而在第一季這種影響更明顯一些，來自核銷政策的變更。我特別強調這點，因為讓這件事清楚很重要。

We are being a lot more technical, a lot more strict than we were before. We used to write-off according to the average. And everything that is an average is not necessarily technically more accurate. If we prefer to do this double click, we saw the results. And we did a very technical work on that.

我們現在更技術化、更嚴格，勝過以往。我們過去是依照平均值來核銷；但凡是平均值，未必在技術上更精準。如果我們更深入拆解，我們看到了結果，並且做了非常技術性的工作。

For example, cards, I've been saying this, and you follow this of close. Cards is one of the portfolios that we have grown the most. It's one of the franchises. We're embedding more chips. In practice, we are bringing forward the write-offs of cards because this is exposed looking at many of the previous cohorts.

例如信用卡，我一直在說，而你也密切追蹤。信用卡是我們成長最快的組合之一，也是我們的核心業務之一。我們正在嵌入更多晶片。實務上，我們把信用卡的核銷時點提前，因為從許多過往批次（cohorts）的表現來看，這部分風險暴露更明顯。

But in auto loans and some other products, we have a recovery capacity that lasts longer. It would be incorrect to have a write-off and then recover that by a sale of portfolio. That's the kind of technical analysis we are doing now. And this will bring us a material result.

但在汽車貸款與其他一些產品上，我們的回收能力可以維持更久。如果先核銷、之後又透過出售資產組合來回收，那是不正確的。這就是我們現在正在做的技術分析。而這將為我們帶來實質性的結果。

Will this change the curve of our over-90 NPL? No. Our average over NPL, especially over 90-day NPL tends to have a higher number than the average number last year. So perhaps the curve will go up a little. And over time, we can show you what this effect is. It's not a problem to do it. It's something we've done technically. And this was reviewed in all possible forms that you can imagine. and we will continue to report accordingly.

這會改變我們 90 天以上 NPL 的曲線嗎？不會。我們的平均 NPL，特別是 90 天以上 NPL，往往會比去年平均水準更高一些，所以曲線可能會略微上升。隨著時間推移，我們可以向你們展示這個影響是什麼；這不是問題。我們是以技術方式做出的調整，而且已用你能想像的所有方式進行審視。我們也會持續依此進行揭露。

From the standpoint of the portfolio, you asked about NPL, cost of risk. And here's what I can tell you, Pedro. There are a number of tectonic plates moving here.

從組合角度，你問到 NPL、風險成本。我可以告訴你的是，這裡有多個「板塊」正在移動。

We are derisking in mass income, low income. I mentioned some data in my presentation. But to make this more tangible, in this quarter alone, our mass income portfolio dropped by close to 4%. And this reduction in low income has two effects and both are healthy.

我們正在降低大眾收入、低收入客群的風險。我在簡報中提過一些數據；但讓它更具體一點，僅在本季度，我們的大眾收入組合就下降了接近 4%。而這種對低收入的縮減有兩個影響，而且兩者都是健康的。

In the short term, I am accelerating my runoff in low-income clients. And this brings a higher NPL because I'm accelerating the derisking. There's another negative effect, but which is also helping. I am not generating revenue that I'll have to provision for. So it's important that you understand that. It's an important digression.

短期來看，我正在加速低收入客戶的自然到期縮減（runoff）。這會帶來較高的 NPL，因為我在加速去風險。還有另一個負面影響，但同時也有幫助：我不再產生那些之後必須提列備抵的收入。因此你理解這點很重要。這是一段重要的補充說明。

My top line, my revenue, particularly NII, in an annual view, it starts dropping. This is the information for you. It starts dropping 1% to 2% in the aggregate number for the bank just by derisking low income. Everything the revenue growth is a top recovering that in a technical and surgical reduction that I am doing in low-income portfolios that I'm not interested in. And all the rest is healthy growth.

我的營收上線、我的收入，特別是淨利息收入（NII），從年度角度來看，開始下滑。這就是要提供給你的資訊。僅僅因為對低收益業務去風險化，銀行整體的彙總數字就會下滑1%到2%。所有的營收成長，都是在我對我不感興趣的低收益投資組合進行技術性、外科手術式的縮減之下，仍能把這部分回補回來。而其餘部分則是健康的成長。

My 0.8% growth in the quarter is not an ultrasexy number. But when you look at the breakdown of that number, it has a very positive quality. And that's my -- that's why I am optimistic because we are growing well and with good health. But this is initial counter effects.

我本季0.8%的成長不是一個特別吸睛的數字。但當你看這個數字的拆解時，它的品質非常正面。這也是我——這就是我為什麼樂觀，因為我們成長得不錯，而且很健康。但這些是初期的抵銷效應。

When we look at NPL formation, some basis points above cost of risk reducing, it sounds wrong, but there are many moving parts there. There's a concern that you didn't mention, but somebody might mention. What about wholesale? Are you well provisioned?

當我們看不良貸款（NPL）形成時，有些基點高於風險成本（cost of risk）下降的幅度，聽起來不太對，但其中有很多變動因素。有一個你沒有提到、但可能有人會提到的疑慮：批發業務（wholesale）呢？你們的提存是否充足？

We don't respond to that name by name. But of course, that is part of NPL and cost of risk, and we have some relevant names as anything is, everything is in wholesale. We are safe regarding our provisions every month. And I'd like to make a more general comment here. And you can ask us later how this translates into practice.

我們不會逐一點名回應。但當然，這是NPL與風險成本的一部分，我們也有一些相關個案；就像任何銀行一樣，所有這些都在批發業務裡。我們每個月在提存方面都很安全。我也想在這裡做一個更一般性的評論。你之後也可以再問我們這在實務上如何落地。

We provision for the wholesale, first based on the legal vehicle and secondly, based on structure. Why am I talking about a legal vehicle? Some of these single names that people talk a lot about in the media and among the analysts, we have a substantial exposure overseas. Because we're part of a group, we have differentiated funding in Madrid, for example, many, some of these single names, 90%-plus of our exposure is in, quote-unquote, Santander Spain.

我們對批發業務的提存，首先是依據法律載體（legal vehicle），其次是依據交易結構。為什麼我要談法律載體？有些媒體與分析師常談的單一名稱（single names），我們有相當大的海外曝險。因為我們是集團的一部分，例如在馬德里，我們有差異化的資金來源；對於其中一些單一名稱，我們90%以上的曝險是在所謂的「Santander Spain」。

Of course, I manage that. It's my committee of risk, my commercial team, but it doesn't affect the bank itself and our shares. So that's an important nuance for you to pay attention to.

當然，我會管理這些——由我的風險委員會、我的商業團隊來管理——但這不會影響銀行本身以及我們的股票。所以這是一個你需要注意的重要細節。

When we see exposure of guarantee exposure of Santander, it's not all in Brazil. I do a lot in terms of assets and project finance. We are leaders in project finance and have been so for about 10 years now. We do a lot in the energy desk, for example, with some operational exposure, not a financial exposure.

當我們看到Santander的擔保曝險（guarantee exposure）時，並不全都在巴西。我在資產與專案融資（project finance）方面做了很多。我們是專案融資的領導者，至今大約已經10年了。舉例來說，我們在能源團隊做了很多，其中有一些是營運曝險，而不是金融曝險。

So when we look at it by asset, we provision according to the level of structure, collateral, if it's operational or not, et cetera. And obviously, we only provision for what is in the balance sheet here. Some of these big players are not in the Brazil balance sheet. It's a broad answer. If I didn't cover everything, please feel free to ask a follow-up.

因此，當我們按資產來看時，我們會依據結構層級、擔保品、是否為營運性曝險等來提存。當然，我們只會對這裡資產負債表上的項目提存。有些大型參與者並不在巴西的資產負債表上。這是一個較廣泛的回答；如果我沒有涵蓋到所有面向，歡迎你再追問。

Brian Flores, Citibank.

Brian Flores，花旗銀行。

(interpreted) Mario, thank you for this long-lasting partnership. And certainly, I would like to wish Carlos great success. You mentioned an interesting point, and you talked about 6% growth in client NII and in older cohorts just grew 3% year on year.

（口譯）Mario，感謝你這段長期的合作關係。我也誠摯祝福Carlos未來一切順利。你提到一個有趣的點：客戶端NII成長6%，而較早期的客群（older cohorts）年增只有3%。

I would just like to know that the gap between these two growth doesn't mean a monetization challenge with expenses going forward, whether you wouldn't have to invest more to engage clients a bit more or whether this gap will face some efficiency issues going forward?

我想了解，這兩個成長率之間的差距，是否意味著未來在費用端的變現（monetization）挑戰——例如你們是否需要投入更多來提升客戶互動——或是這個差距未來會帶來一些效率面的問題？

(interpreted) Well, thank you, Brian. Thank you for your kind words. This is a very strategic question, and it's a great question as well.

（口譯）謝謝你，Brian。謝謝你的好意。這是一個非常策略性的問題，也是一個很好的問題。

Well, this morning, when I talk to my employees, I mean, I talked a lot about that. I mean, to grow 6% year on year, given the fact that 75 million is a very good growth, the number is BRL4-plus million, which is a big number. I think I talked about this many times. We are not running to add more clients because the journey is to grow the franchise also through clients, but mostly active clients and clients with principality.

今天早上我跟員工談話時，我其實談了很多這件事。年增6%，考量到7,500萬是一個非常好的成長，這個數字是超過40億巴西雷亞爾（BRL4-plus million），是一個很大的數字。我想我已經講過很多次：我們不是急著增加更多客戶，因為我們的旅程是透過客戶來壯大特許經營（franchise），但更重要的是活躍客戶，以及具有主辦關係（principality）的客戶。

For me, the challenge is, can I do more to grow our client top line, but I want to grow active clients and clients with principality. So the main challenge is to turn three into six or six into more.

對我而言，挑戰是：我能不能做更多來提升客戶端的營收上線，但我想要成長的是活躍客戶與具有主辦關係的客戶。所以主要挑戰是把3變成6，或把6變成更高。

So what are we doing to that end? Obviously, part of that is credit appetite. So I'm not going to change my credit appetite just to grow the number of clients. I have to grow clients within adequate appetite, and this has to be in tune with my portfolio, balanced, sustainable, diversified and that can deliver an ROE of 20-plus after 2028. And even the group was committed to that number in our -- they were committed to that number during our Investor Day.

那我們為此在做什麼？很明顯，其中一部分是信貸偏好（credit appetite）。所以我不會為了增加客戶數就改變我的信貸偏好。我必須在適當的偏好範圍內成長客戶，而且要與我的投資組合相匹配：平衡、可持續、多元化，並且在2028年之後能交付20%以上的ROE。甚至集團在我們的投資人日（Investor Day）也承諾了這個數字。

So we are heading in that direction, and this is a fact. And we only -- we can only do that if we maintain our discipline in terms of cost of risk. So I'm not going to grow at the expense of our appetite. I mean, dizzing hola, et cetera, inflation will fall, and this will certainly increase my appetite in the lines where I already operate. But in the audience where I already have a good credit appetite, how can I grow more?

所以我們正朝這個方向前進，這是事實。而且我們只有——我們只能在維持風險成本紀律的前提下做到這一點。因此我不會以犧牲偏好為代價去成長。我的意思是，dizzing hola 等等，通膨會下降，這肯定會提高我在既有經營線上的偏好。但在我已經有良好信貸偏好的客群裡，我要如何成長更多？

This has to do with all the tools we have, commercial value and value proposition. When I talk about tools, I'm talking about platforms, our one app, that we deploy to the entire base, maybe in record time in only nine months, we began and ended the deployment. All of our account holders are now in the new app. And now we will also focus on customers that only have one product. So we want them to increase their product list.

這與我們擁有的所有工具、商業價值與價值主張有關。我說的工具，是指平台、我們的單一App（one app），我們在僅僅九個月內就以可能是創紀錄的速度完成對全體客群的部署，從開始到結束。現在所有帳戶持有人都已經在新App上。接下來我們也會聚焦那些只有一項產品的客戶，希望他們增加產品持有數。

We have our new CRM that started in Brazil and then turned out to be a global platform, a customer interaction process. This allows for hyper personalization. I think I mentioned that oftentimes, Santander Rewards that was launched just a day before yesterday.

我們有新的CRM，先在巴西啟動，後來成為全球平台，也就是客戶互動流程。這讓我們能做到超個人化（hyper personalization）。我想我也常提到，Santander Rewards是在前天才剛推出。

With that, we want to deliver is a very encompassing view for the client when he feels that he is valued. And this has to do with the tools/value, especially for high income and SMEs. We want to deliver the right value proposition expected by the client. And we want to win that in the market and in high income and in SMEs and certainly in wholesale, we have to have a service model that has to be better than that, that you find in the market.

透過這些，我們想提供的是一個非常全面的客戶視角，讓客戶感受到自己被重視。這與工具/價值有關，特別是針對高收入客群與中小企業（SMEs）。我們要提供客戶所期待的正確價值主張。我們希望在市場上、在高收入客群與SMEs中贏得這一點；而在批發業務方面，我們必須有一個服務模式，要比你在市場上看到的更好。

So in terms of offering and tools, given our capital discipline, we have to deliver more. And I am certain that we can do that. But this is a journey, of course, and it's a tough journey because we have extraordinary competitors, not only in Brazil, but in other geographies. And there is a regulating body that is constantly challenging us. So this is the path.

因此，在產品提供與工具方面，基於我們的資本紀律，我們必須交付更多。我也確信我們做得到。但這當然是一段旅程，而且是一段艱難的旅程，因為我們有非常強的競爭對手，不只在巴西，也在其他地區。同時監管機構也持續對我們提出挑戰。所以這就是我們要走的路。

Jorge Kuri, Morgan Stanley.

Jorge Kuri，摩根士丹利。

I guess, Mario, before my question, I just wanted to thank you for the open dialogue and proximity you had with the analyst community over the years and wish you all the best going forward. And you've spoken at length about the bank and all of the debate and the metrics. So I don't really have a question there.

Mario，在我提問之前，我想先感謝你多年來與分析師社群保持開放的對話與密切互動，也祝你未來一切順利。你已經很詳細談到銀行、所有的討論與指標，所以那部分我其實沒有問題。

But I just want to maybe take a step back and ask about the leadership transition. Could you help us understand how Santander Spain, the Board, locally in Spain is thinking about the company's next phase and what specific capabilities or experience the incoming CEO and CFO bring that you think are more relevant to the strategic or operational priorities ahead?

但我想稍微退一步，問一下領導層交接。你能否幫我們理解，Santander Spain、董事會在西班牙當地是如何思考公司下一階段？以及你認為新任CEO與CFO帶來哪些特定能力或經驗，會更符合接下來的策略或營運優先事項？

And should we view these changes as maybe suggesting or supporting any shifts in strategy, capital allocation priorities? Or is this just more sort of like the normal transition period that Santander rolls people over from time to time, position to position to renew sort of like energy, et cetera. Just help us understand what's behind all of these leadership changes.

另外，我們是否應該把這些變動視為在暗示或支持策略、資本配置優先順序的任何調整？還是這比較像Santander一貫的正常輪調，時不時把人從一個職位調到另一個職位，以更新能量等等。請幫我們理解這些領導層變動背後的原因。

Thanks, Jorge. It's a pleasure to speak again and cover transition, which is an important topic. So starting from the end, I cannot speak fully obviously on behalf of the group and the Board, but being part of the promotores, as you call, the senior leadership of Santander Group and also being part of the Board, the transition has very little to do with a need for change, need to alter the strategy or pivot from the direction we're taking or the segments we're focusing on.

謝謝你，Jorge。很高興再次交流並談到交接，這是一個重要的議題。先從最後一點說起：我當然無法完全代表集團與董事會發言，但作為你所說的promotores——也就是Santander集團的資深領導層之一——同時也是董事會成員，這次交接與「需要改變」、需要調整策略、或從我們正在採取的方向、或我們聚焦的客群/業務板塊上轉向，關聯其實非常小。

It has to do much more with continuity and reinforcing the strategy which we've been building, not Mario himself, not the senior leadership of Brazil all along, but the whole leadership of Brazil, the Board and the group's leadership that has been very close to Brazil all along. We've been doing this together. So it would be a natural that with the change of the CEO, and by the way, coincidently the CFO, the strategy will change.

這更多是關於延續性，以及強化我們一直在打造的策略；不是關於 Mario 個人，也不是僅僅關於巴西的高階管理層，而是關於巴西整個領導團隊、董事會，以及一直以來都與巴西非常緊密合作的集團管理層。我們一直是一起在做這件事。因此，隨著執行長的更替——順帶一提，也巧合地包括財務長——策略就會改變，這樣的說法其實並不自然。

So I do not expect, frankly, you can obviously challenge us through the next cycle, but there should not be a relevant change in strategy. There should be, hopefully, even more focus on a disciplined execution of that strategy, which you know by heart because I've repeated it 10 to 20 times at least what we've been doing, what we're focused on, the as we call it now, the borrowing banking strategy, which is as boring as it is, it is as powerful and sustainable as it could be.

所以坦白說，我不預期策略會有任何重大變化；當然，你們可以在下一個週期持續檢視並挑戰我們，但策略不應該出現實質改變。反而希望能更聚焦於有紀律地執行這個策略——你們已經非常熟悉，因為我至少重複了 10 到 20 次：我們在做什麼、我們聚焦什麼，也就是我們現在所稱的「boring banking（無聊銀行）」策略；它雖然很「無聊」，但同時也可以非常強大且可持續。

So we are obviously in the middle of that path. We're not claiming victory. And by the way, victory is a moving target, but we are clearly in the right direction, and I'm pretty sure that the Board and the group with the new leadership here, which is predominantly the same leadership that I built with the new CFO, which I helped to choose and the new CEO, which I applaud the Board and the group's choice.

因此，我們顯然正走在這條路的中段。我們並不宣稱已經勝利；而且勝利本來就是一個會移動的目標。但我們很清楚正朝著正確方向前進。我也相當確信，董事會與集團在這裡的新領導之下——而這個領導團隊主要仍是我所建立的同一批人，搭配新的財務長（我也協助挑選）以及新的執行長（我也為董事會與集團的選擇喝采）——會持續推進。

I'm sure Gilson and Carlos and the whole leadership, with the support of the Board and the support of the whole group, we will continue the execution path we've been taking, hopefully, faster, hopefully better, but for sure, along the same lines of capital discipline, profitability, being more profitable before being bigger, but obviously, being both, being more profitable, being bigger, getting to 20% plus ROTE by 2028 and hopefully beyond because this franchise merits and has all the capabilities to have a 20 lows ROTE on a sustainable and permanent basis going forward.

我相信 Gilson、Carlos 以及整個領導團隊，在董事會與整個集團的支持下，會繼續沿著我們一直採取的執行路徑前進——希望更快、希望更好，但肯定會沿著同樣的主軸：資本紀律、獲利能力、先更獲利再做更大；當然，兩者都要——更獲利、也更大；在 2028 年達到 20% 以上的 ROTE，並希望在那之後也能維持，因為這個特許經營（franchise）值得、也具備所有能力，在未來以可持續且長期的方式，維持約 20% 出頭的 ROTE。

So I do not envision any change and hopefully, an even better execution than we've been executing. So ultimately, it is a more, I would call, BAU Santander transition cycle.

所以我不預見會有任何改變；反而希望執行得比我們目前做得更好。歸根結底，我會稱之為一個更偏向 BAU（照常營運）的 Santander 交接週期。

Gustavo, as you know, after 26 years of Santander and three CFO, announced his departure late last year, and we had a very smooth and soft transition with one of the best, if not the best CFOs we had within the group that is Carlos Muniz. So I'm selling him expensively to you, but he's one of the best indeed that I'm sure you're going to have the chance to work alongside with him. So I'm very excited to have a CFO that now encompasses the controller function in Brazil, which helps as well understand the numbers, narrate the numbers, et cetera.

Gustavo 如你所知，在 Santander 服務 26 年、歷經三任財務長之後，於去年底宣布離任；而我們與 Carlos Muniz——集團內最優秀的財務長之一，甚至可能是最優秀的——完成了一次非常平順、非常柔和的交接。我把他「高價」賣給你們了，但他確實是最頂尖之一；我相信你們會有機會與他並肩合作。我也非常期待現在有一位在巴西同時涵蓋 controller（財務控管）職能的財務長，這也有助於理解數字、講述數字等等。

And on my side, as I announced around a month, month and change ago, it was also my decision to close this cycle of five years since my initial transition with Sergio, very rich, very, very enlightening cycle for me, for the bank, hopefully, and I'm very much looking forward to the cycle ahead.

至於我這邊，如我大約一個月多前所宣布的，結束這個週期也是我的決定——自我與 Sergio 初始交接以來的五年。這是一段非常豐富、對我而言非常、非常具啟發性的週期；對銀行而言也希望如此。我也非常期待接下來的週期。

So it is, I would say, as much as possible BAU. The leadership is very focused, very not stressed, not anxious. And I'm very, very excited to share the next phase with Gilson after a transitional cycle. He's someone I know from my Citi days a long time ago, and I very much look forward to seeing him as the next cycle CEO for Santander Brasil, along with Muniz, CFO. Thank you.

所以我會說，盡可能就是 BAU。領導團隊非常專注，也不緊張、不焦慮。我也非常、非常期待在一段過渡期之後，與 Gilson 一起分享下一階段。他是我很久以前在 Citi 時期就認識的人；我非常期待看到他成為 Santander Brasil 下一個週期的執行長，並與財務長 Muniz 一起。謝謝。

Bernardo Guttman, XP.

Bernardo Guttman，XP。

(interpreted) I'd like to take this moment to congratulate you on your history at the bank, and I wish you success and luck in your new challenges, and I wish Carlos a lot of success. I will repeat my question.

（口譯）我想藉此時刻祝賀你在銀行的歷程，並祝你在新的挑戰中成功與好運，也祝 Carlos 一切順利。我會重複我的問題。

It was about growth of the mix. The bank continues with this movement of migrating to collateralized lines, real estate, collateralized SMEs, loans. In your view, is this movement to delivering what was expected in terms of risk-adjusted return? And is there any segment that you feel you were sub-allocated and that you would like to grow more during the year?

是關於組合（mix）的成長。銀行持續推動遷移到有擔保的產品線：不動產、具擔保的中小企業（SME）貸款等。以你的觀點，這個轉向在風險調整後報酬（risk-adjusted return）方面，是否達到原先預期？另外，有沒有哪個你覺得配置不足、希望今年能加大成長的細分領域？

(interpreted) Thank you, Bernardo. I would like to apologize for the technical glitch and thank you for your patience. Not only you, but all of you that still are with us. I'll try to make it up for you.

（口譯）謝謝你，Bernardo。我想為技術上的小故障致歉，也謝謝你的耐心。不只是你，也包括所有仍在線上的各位。我會努力補償大家。

You touched on a strategic point of our strategy, one of our golden rules in recent years, which is the mix, a healthier, more resilient, all weather mix. That's what we want to deliver.

你提到的是我們策略中的一個關鍵點，也是近年來我們的一條黃金法則之一：也就是組合——更健康、更具韌性、能適應各種景氣的組合（all-weather mix）。這就是我們想要交付的。

Every quarter we are delivering at Santander an all-weather bank for the whole group, for our market, for our management. And this has to do with a good mix. We are we where we want to be? Absolutely not. This is a continuum that will take another year or two for us to get to the right mix, reducing mass income and with a greater balance sheet, but we have progressed in the recomposition of the mix as you just said it.

每一季，我們都在 Santander 交付一個「全氣候銀行」（all-weather bank），不論對整個集團、對我們的市場、或對我們的管理而言皆是如此。而這與良好的組合有關。我們是否已經到達想要的位置？絕對還沒有。這是一個連續的過程，可能還需要一到兩年，才能達到正確的組合：降低大眾收入（mass income），並擴大資產負債表，但正如你所說，我們在組合重建方面已經有所進展。

Do we see the impact of that in the line items of our earnings? Absolutely. When we look at the cohort of origination and we did the back test of that, I told you we do back testing every month, but we do a more in-depth back testing every quarter when we have a better notion of M3 and delays in payment. And then we do in-depth analysis. And this is headed by Carlos Muniz, CFO of the bank with Carlos Diaz, our CRO.

我們是否在損益表的各項科目中看到這個影響？當然有。當我們看放款承作（origination）的 cohort，並對其做回溯測試（back test）——我之前提過我們每個月都做回溯測試，但每一季在對 M3 與逾期付款（delays in payment）有更清楚的掌握後，我們會做更深入的回溯測試，接著進行深入分析——這項工作由本行財務長 Carlos Muniz 與我們的風險長（CRO）Carlos Diaz 主導。

As the first line of defense in the equation for profitability, they challenge the businesses to improve the mix. Do we see this in the new cohorts? Oh, absolutely. Of course, we always have to be feeding back the origination model with the lessons learned. But I would say that 90%-plus of what we're doing is exactly where we want it to be.

作為獲利方程式中的第一道防線，他們會挑戰各業務單位去改善組合。我們在新的 cohort 中有看到嗎？噢，絕對有。當然，我們總是需要把學到的經驗回饋到承作模型中。但我會說，我們正在做的事情有 90% 以上正是我們希望達到的方向。

And what about the aggregated earnings account of bank? Like I said, there are many tectonic plates moving at the same time. So I am accelerating the write-off, my runoff in the special part. This increases NPL in the special segment, but it's healthy that I do that because I'm purging this future NPL in that segment. And I have a top-line effect.

那麼，銀行整體的彙總損益表呢？如我所說，同一時間有許多板塊在移動。因此，我正在加速核銷（write-off），也在特殊部分加速自然到期縮表（runoff）。這會讓特殊分部的 NPL 上升，但我這麼做是健康的，因為我正在清除該分部未來可能形成的 NPL。同時也會對營收端（top-line）產生影響。

I don't have the highest spread of the portfolio, which is the mass income segment. But the quality of the earnings I am building, the quality is improving month after month, quarter after quarter. And every quarter, you will be able to see this. So new cohorts absolutely check with a payback testing discipline.

我並沒有持有利差最高的投組——也就是大眾收入（mass income）分部。但我正在建立的獲利品質正在改善：每個月、每一季都在提升。而且每一季你們都能看得到。因此，新 cohort 絕對符合我們以回收期（payback）測試為紀律的檢核。

If we had more time on Muniz could speak for half an hour about how he's doing this as he recently arrived CFO. But this is one of the main steps of our weekly management. And little by little, this mix will impact the portfolio. And that's why I feel safe to say that with the mix, we are going to have a 20-plus profitability as of 2028 because we will have purged everything that needed margin. And the new cohorts will have originations at 20, 20-plus ROTE

如果我們有更多時間，Muniz 可以談上半小時，說明他作為新上任的財務長是如何做這件事的。但這是我們每週管理中的主要步驟之一。隨著時間推進，這個組合會逐步影響整體投組。也因此我有信心說，透過這個組合，我們將在 2028 年達到 20% 以上的獲利能力，因為我們會清除所有需要清理、拖累利潤的部分，而新的 cohort 將以 20%、20% 以上 ROTE 的承作水準進行放款。

Marcelo Mizrahi, Bradesco BBI.

Marcelo Mizrahi，Bradesco BBI。

(interpreted) Mario, thank you for everything in the buy side, the sell side, thank you for everything we learned from you. Thank you for the partnership. I wish Carlos a lot of luck.

（口譯）Mario，謝謝你為買方、賣方所做的一切，也謝謝我們從你身上學到的一切。感謝合作。我祝 Carlos 好運。

My question is, this week, we wrote about the 15- to 90-day NPL compared to the over 90-day NPL. And as you mentioned, and the Central Bank also said that the over-90 is losing a little of comparability. And also in terms of comparison within Santander, when we look at 15- to 90-day NPL of Santander, for individuals, the sign of the signaling for individuals and for SMEs is constructive.

我的問題是：本週我們寫到 15 到 90 天的 NPL 相較於 90 天以上的 NPL。正如你提到的，央行也表示 90 天以上的指標正在逐漸失去一些可比性。另外，就 Santander 內部比較而言，當我們看 Santander 的 15 到 90 天 NPL，在個人與中小企業（SME）方面，這個訊號是偏正向的。

For SMEs, NPL is actually falling in Q1 and quarter-on-quarter. And for individuals, NPL is growing, but growing less than in recent years. I checked in the last four to five years, every Q1, especially last year, 15 to 90 NPL would grow more than 0.2%, which is what it grew this quarter. When I look at the 15- to 90-day NPL, I think that's the most reliable piece of information to compare. I have a more constructive quality.

對 SME 而言，NPL 在第一季、以及季對季（quarter-on-quarter）其實是在下降。對個人而言，NPL 在上升，但上升幅度小於近年。我回看過去四到五年，每個第一季——尤其去年——15 到 90 天 NPL 的增幅通常會超過 0.2%，而本季的增幅就是 0.2%。當我看 15 到 90 天 NPL 時，我認為那是最可靠、最適合用來比較的資訊。我看到的是更具建設性的資產品質。

So my question has to do with the cost of risk. Looking at the cost of risk, looking forward, you talked about derisking of the portfolio. So the question is, if we consider specific cases, I don't know if you have provisioned or you expect to increase provisions looking forward. If we consider the loan book portfolio with a slightly lower risk, we start seeing this for individuals and SMEs. Should we expect an increase in the cost of risk throughout the year? Or should we see the COR more stable?

所以我的問題與風險成本有關。從風險成本的角度、往前看，您談到了投資組合的去風險化。因此問題是，如果我們看一些具體案例，我不確定你們是否已經提列，或是預期未來會增加提列。若我們看風險略低的放款簿投資組合，我們開始在個人與中小企業（SMEs）看到這種情況。今年全年我們是否應該預期風險成本上升？還是我們應該看到 COR 更為穩定？

In terms of our expectations for Q1, we expected a higher provision. But because of this dynamic of seasonality and of the special cases. So I would like to hear more about the dynamics of cost of risk looking forward.

就我們對第一季的預期而言，我們原本預期提列會更高。但因為季節性與一些特殊個案的動態。因此我想更進一步了解未來風險成本的動態。

(interpreted) Thank you, Marcelo. And again, thank you for your kind words. You said you learned from me, but I also and the bank learned a lot from the analysts. You're always very technical. You always ask the most difficult questions, and we have to prepare more. So thank you.

（口譯）謝謝你，Marcelo。也再次感謝你的好意。你說你從我這裡學到很多，但我以及銀行也從分析師身上學到很多。你們一向非常技術導向，總是問最難的問題，讓我們必須準備得更充分。所以謝謝。

Marcelo touched on several points, and I'll try to touch on many of those. If I leave anything out, please let me know, and I'll add to that.

Marcelo 提到了幾個重點，我會盡量涵蓋其中多數。如果我漏掉任何部分，請告訴我，我再補充。

It is true that 15- to 90-day NPL has constructive aspects. So when we look at the seasonality of Q1, it is good that you look at the track record, particularly last year, it was even more difficult. And I remember that a year ago, we spoke about real estate. The effect was even more material than it is now. But it is material.

確實，15 至 90 天的 NPL 有一些正向面向。因此當我們看第一季的季節性時，你去看歷史軌跡是好的，尤其是去年，情況甚至更困難。我記得一年前我們談到房地產，其影響比現在更為顯著。但現在仍然是顯著的。

If we look at real estate, it's 25% to 30% of that 15 to 90 delta just the real estate. If we consider consumer finance, we will definitely go beyond half. These are products that have a very healthy nature in terms of short-term delinquency.

如果看房地產，15 到 90 天那個變動（delta）中有 25% 到 30% 只是來自房地產。如果再考慮消費金融，我們肯定會超過一半。這些產品在短期逾期方面的特性非常健康。

So it seems constructive for SMEs, the same. How do I interpret that, Marcelo? We have been the first to corroborate that. We have been more conservative in terms of growing the portfolio. I'm not saying that we are better than others because of that, but we are trying to be more selective in each audience of each subsegment.

所以對中小企業而言看起來也是正向的。我該如何解讀這點，Marcelo？我們一直是第一個去佐證這件事的。我們在投資組合成長方面更為保守。我不是說因此我們比別人更好，但我們正嘗試在每一個客群、每一個次分群上更具選擇性。

And yes, we will try to have an over-90 NPL that is better than the market because we are growing the portfolio less and I grow less the denominator. So the effect on NPL formation and cost of risk, if I were growing the portfolio at 10%, 12% a year, of course, this will help me get better indicators, and I'm not getting that. I'm not getting that because I decided not to. It's not by chance. So it's not helping.

而且是的，我們會努力讓 90 天以上的 NPL 表現優於市場，因為我們讓投資組合成長較少、分母成長也較少。因此對 NPL 形成與風險成本的影響是：如果我每年把投資組合成長到 10%、12%，當然這會幫助我得到更好的指標，但我並沒有那樣做。我沒有那樣做是因為我選擇不做，並非偶然。所以它並沒有在幫忙。

In that regard, of course, in this quarter, because of the FX and some specific portfolios, we ended up having an expanded portfolio that posted a slight drop. I don't expect that the portfolio will end 2025 dropping, of course, not. It should grow some points, X points less than what is expected by Fedra Bank. It will grow so that the denominator should be positive, diluting the cost of risk.

在這方面，當然，本季因為匯率（FX）以及一些特定投資組合，我們最後出現了擴張後的投資組合卻略有下滑。我不預期投資組合在 2025 年底會是下滑的，當然不會。它應該會成長一些百分點，成長幅度會比 Fedra Bank 所預期的少 X 個百分點。它會成長，因此分母應該會是正的，從而稀釋風險成本。

And if I can do this well in my portfolio, I should be able to make NPL not grow beyond the growth of the portfolio so that the cost of risk in presence would remain at the same order of magnitude, more or less some basis points. It's too early in the year to say what's going to happen at the macroeconomic context. I spoke about household debt.

如果我能把投資組合管理好，我應該能讓 NPL 的成長不超過投資組合的成長，這樣在現況下風險成本就能維持在大致相同的量級，可能上下幾個基點。今年還太早，無法判斷總體經濟環境會如何發展。我提到了家庭負債。

And I spoke about SMEs and in the small enterprises, we are concerned and agribusiness is not solved. It's not for Santander, the whole industry. So we cannot say that we're going to have a reduction in the cost of risk that will be more visible, but we don't expect the cost of risk to deteriorate, at least not materially this year.

我也談到了中小企業，尤其是小型企業，我們仍然擔憂；而農業綜合企業（agribusiness）的問題也尚未解決。這不只是 Santander 的問題，而是整個產業的問題。因此我們不能說風險成本會出現更明顯的下降，但我們也不預期今年風險成本會惡化，至少不會出現實質性的惡化。

But in a longer term, '27, '28, the way we are derisking the portfolio, the way we are originating portfolios in a more diversified, balanced and safer way, we'll have a bank to reduce the cost of risk when we think about 2027, '28. That's what I can say because we are going to have a mid- to longer-term effect of our derisking and the new originations, which are more precise, like I mentioned in the previous question.

但從更長期來看，到了 2027、2028 年，隨著我們對投資組合去風險化的方式、以及我們以更分散、更均衡、更安全的方式來承作新案，我們將能在 2027、2028 年展望時把風險成本降下來。這是我能說的，因為我們的去風險化與新的承作（originations）會帶來中長期的效果，而這些新承作更精準，正如我在前一個問題中提到的。

So we expect kind of flat order of magnitude, some basis points more or less this quarter and with some basis points less, even with the portfolio growing. With the portfolio growing, we're going to have a tailwind. And we'll continue with the same discipline and dealing with the macroeconomic environment because you, we and all of our competitors have to face that. And again, we believe that March 31, the balance sheet will have the right provision for those single names, but the situation continues to evolve.

因此我們預期大致維持在相同量級，本季可能上下幾個基點；即使投資組合成長，也可能出現幾個基點的下降。隨著投資組合成長，我們會有順風。我們也會持續維持同樣的紀律，並因應總體經濟環境，因為你們、我們以及所有競爭對手都必須面對它。再者，我們相信截至 3 月 31 日，資產負債表對那些單一名稱（single names）已具備適當的提列，但情況仍在演變。

April will be better than March. May will be better than April. We don't do any provision for a scenario that has not materialized yet. Of course, we have our recovery modeling, our net present value modeling of our exposure. So we take into account the scenarios, but whether we have negotiations happening where we sit at the table with the company designing constructive solutions.

4 月會比 3 月好，5 月會比 4 月好。我們不會為尚未實現的情境做任何提列。當然，我們有復原（recovery）模型、以及對曝險的淨現值（NPV）模型，因此我們會把各種情境納入考量；同時也要看是否有談判在進行，我們是否與公司坐下來共同設計具建設性的解決方案。

So of course, we'll monitor all of these discussions to evaluate how many provisions we need because, again, we cannot generalize. We have very low exposures and we have more positions in operational assets and projects and in the power desk or derivatives. And it's a different nature when we consider clean operations and holding operations.

所以當然，我們會監控所有這些討論，以評估需要多少提列，因為再次強調，我們不能一概而論。我們有非常低的曝險，也有在營運性資產與專案上的較多部位，以及在電力交易台（power desk）或衍生性商品上的部位。而當我們考量純粹的交易（clean operations）與控股層級的交易（holding operations）時，其性質也不同。

So we'll continue to do this. And depending on the evolution of the names, we'll have to reinforce the provision. I hope I covered all of the points regarding the cost of risk because this is a cross-cutting team. I know it's important, but the team is available.

因此我們會持續這樣做。並且視這些名稱（names）的演變情況，我們可能必須加強提列。我希望我已涵蓋所有關於風險成本的重點，因為這是一個跨領域的團隊議題。我知道這很重要，而團隊也隨時可以提供協助。

And I'll give the floor to Camila for the final statement.

接下來我把時間交給 Camila 做最後的結語。

(interpreted) Very well. Thank you very much. I would like to thank all of you joining us this morning. Myself and the whole Investor Relations team of Santander will be available if you have any further questions.

（口譯）好的，非常感謝。我想感謝各位今天早上參與。我本人以及 Santander 的整個投資人關係團隊，若各位還有任何進一步問題，我們都會隨時提供協助。

Thank you very much. Have a great day and a great week.

非常感謝。祝各位有美好的一天，也祝各位有美好的一週。

(interpreted) Thank you very much, everyone. It's been great spending these years with you, and I will continue supporting [entering] for the bank. Thank you very much.

（口譯）非常感謝各位。這些年能與各位共事非常愉快，我也會持續為銀行提供支援（[entering]）。非常感謝。

Portions of this transcript that are marked (interpreted) were spoken by an interpreter present on the live call. The interpreter was provided by the company sponsoring this event.

本逐字稿中標示為（口譯）的部分，係由現場電話會議中的口譯員所說。該口譯員由主辦本活動的公司提供。