BOK Financial Corp (BOKF) 2025 Q3 法說會逐字稿

Greetings. Welcome to BOK Financial Corporation's third quarter 2025 earnings conference call. As a remainder, this conference is being supported. (Operator Instructions)

問候。歡迎參加BOK金融公司2025年第三季業績電話會議。再次提醒，本次會議得到了支持。（操作說明）

I would now like to turn the presentation over to Heather King, Director of Investor Relations for BOK Financial Corporation. Please proceed.

現在我將把演講交給 BOK 金融公司投資者關係總監 Heather King。請繼續。

Good afternoon, and thank you for joining our discussion of BOK Financial's Third Quarter 2025 financial results. Our CEO, Stacy Kymes, will provide opening comments and cover the loan portfolio and related credit metrics. Scott Grauer, Executive Vice President of Wealth Management, will cover our fee-based results; and our CFO, Marty Grunst, will then discuss financial performance for the quarter as well as our forward guidance.

下午好，感謝各位參加我們對 BOK Financial 2025 年第三季財務業績的討論。我們的執行長史黛西·凱姆斯將致開幕詞，並介紹貸款組合和相關信貸指標。財富管理執行副總裁 Scott Grauer 將介紹我們基於費用的業績；然後，我們的財務長 Marty Grunst 將討論本季的財務業績以及我們的未來展望。

Slide presentation and press release are available on our website at bokf.com. We refer you to the disclaimers on slide 2 regarding any forward-looking statements made during this call.

幻燈片簡報和新聞稿可在我們的網站bokf.com上取得。關於本次電話會議中所做的任何前瞻性陳述，請參閱投影片2上的免責聲明。

I will now turn the call over to Stacy Kymes, who will begin on slide 4.

現在我將把電話交給 Stacy Kymes，她將從第 4 張幻燈片開始。

Thank you, Heather. We appreciate you joining the call this afternoon. We are pleased to report earnings of $140.9 million or EPS of $2.22 per diluted share for the third quarter. On our last quarterly call, I spent a lot of time talking about momentum. This quarter, we built on that progress and remain confident in the trajectory we're on and the solid foundation we've established for future growth.

謝謝你，希瑟。感謝您今天下午參加電話會議。我們很高興地宣布，第三季獲利1.409億美元，即每股攤薄收益2.22美元。在上一次季度電話會議上，我花了很多時間談論發展勢頭。本季度，我們鞏固了這一進展，並對我們目前的發展軌跡以及為未來成長奠定的堅實基礎充滿信心。

During the quarter, we delivered broad-based growth across our loan portfolio with total outstanding balances up 2.4% sequentially, adding almost $1.2 billion in outstanding loan balances over the past two quarters. Our core C&I portfolio posted strong results for the second consecutive quarter, while specialized businesses remained stable.

本季度，我們的貸款組合實現了全面增長，未償貸款餘額總額環比增長 2.4%，在過去兩個季度中新增了近 12 億美元的未償貸款餘額。我們的核心工商業業務組合連續第二個季度取得了強勁的業績，而專業業務則保持穩定。

CRE balances expanding meaningfully as commitments from late 2024 and early 2025 have continued to fund up during their construction life cycles. Importantly, this momentum is independent of our mortgage finance launch, which began generating fundings in the third quarter with more meaningful outstandings expected during the fourth quarter.

隨著 2024 年末和 2025 年初的承諾在建設生命週期內持續獲得資金，CRE 平衡顯著擴大。重要的是，這一勢頭與我們的抵押貸款融資計劃無關，該計劃已於第三季度開始產生資金，預計第四季度將有更多實質性的未償餘額。

Net interest margin continued to expand this quarter, increasing 11 basis points. We believe the key elements are in place to sustain strength in this area regardless of whether the Fed cuts rates faster or slower than expected.

本季淨利差持續擴大，成長了11個基點。我們認為，無論聯準會降息速度是快於還是慢於預期，關鍵要素都已到位，足以維持該領域的強勁勢頭。

Our strong liquidity profile with a loan-to-deposit ratio in the mid-60s percent range, provides strategic flexibility. Going into this interest rate cutting cycle with a strong liquidity profile should enable us to achieve effective pricing outcomes. This positions us well to build upon our already attractive early cycle total liability beta.

我們擁有強勁的流動性，貸款存款比率在 60% 左右，這為我們提供了策略靈活性。帶著強勁的流動性進入本次降息週期，應該能夠幫助我們實現有效的定價結果。這使我們能夠更好地鞏固和擴大我們早期週期總負債貝塔值已頗具吸引力的優勢。

Our balance sheet remains relatively neutral to interest rate risk, which is consistent with our long-held philosophy of managing rate risk. This neutral positioning helps protect margin whether cuts are more or less aggressive than anticipated.

我們的資產負債表對利率風險保持相對中立，這與我們長期以來秉持的利率風險管理理念是一致的。這種中立的策略有助於保護利潤率，無論實際的降幅是高於或低於預期。

Importantly, while we are neutral to interest rates, we are not neutral to the shape of the yield curve. Current market implied forward suggest the yield curve will continue to steepen over the next 12 months. This should provide a further tailwind to margin.

重要的是，雖然我們對利率持中立態度，但我們對殖利率曲線的形狀並非持中立態度。目前市場隱含的遠期殖利率曲線表明，未來12個月殖利率曲線將繼續陡峭化。這應該會進一步利好利潤率。

Fee income was another solid contributor to overall performance this quarter, growing 3.6% sequentially. We recognized a record quarter for investment banking revenue, bolstered by municipal bond underwriting activity, a key strength in our fee income and advisory business.

手續費收入是本季整體業績的另一重要貢獻者，季增 3.6%。我們投資銀行業務收入創下歷史新高，主要得益於市政債承銷業務的成長，而市政債承銷業務正是我們收費收入和諮詢業務的關鍵優勢。

We also saw significant growth in AUMA this quarter, reaching more than $122 billion. Our capital levels remain peer-leading and will further reinforce this quarter as TCE grew to 10.1% and CET1 reached 13.6%. We repurchased over 365,000 shares at an average price of $111 per share during the quarter. This reflects our continued commitment to providing value to our shareholders.

本季我們的資產管理規模也實現了顯著成長，達到超過 1,220 億美元。我們的資本水準仍處於同業領先地位，隨著 TCE 成長至 10.1% 和 CET1 達到 13.6%，本季將進一步鞏固這一優勢。本季我們以每股 111 美元的平均價格回購了超過 365,000 股股票。這體現了我們持續致力於為股東創造價值的承諾。

Credit quality continues to be a core strength for us. We remain well reserved with a combined allowance representing a healthy 1.32% of outstanding loans. Criticized and classified levels remain well below their pre-pandemic levels, reflecting our disciplined approach to risk management.

信貸品質仍然是我們的核心優勢。我們保持著充足的儲備金，綜合撥備佔未償還貸款的1.32%，處於健康水準。受到批評和被列為機密的級別仍然遠低於疫情前的水平，這反映了我們對風險管理的嚴謹態度。

Slide 6 provides a closer look at our loan portfolio. Total outstanding loans grew 2.4% this quarter, led by growth in our core C&I portfolio, commercial real estate and loans to individuals. Our core C&I loan portfolio, which represents our combined services and general business portfolios grew 1.4% quarter-over-quarter. Our specialty lending portfolio, consisting of our energy and health care books increased slightly this quarter, with growth in health care loans, partially offset by contraction in the energy portfolio. Healthcare loans increased 1.8%, driven by strong origination activity, particularly within the senior housing space.

第 6 張投影片詳細介紹了我們的貸款組合。本季未償還貸款總額增加了 2.4%，主要得益於核心 C&I 貸款組合、商業房地產和個人貸款的成長。我們的核心 C&I 貸款組合（代表我們綜合服務和一般業務組合）較上季成長 1.4%。本季度，我們的專業貸款組合（包括能源和醫療保健貸款）略有增長，其中醫療保健貸款增長，但部分被能源貸款組合的收縮所抵消。醫療保健貸款成長了 1.8%，主要得益於強勁的貸款發放活動，尤其是在老年住房領域。

The growth was not limited outstanding balances. We saw a notable rise in commitments, reinforcing our confidence in long-term sustainable growth in this portfolio. This is despite normal refinancing churn. Both of our specialized lending books continue to demonstrate resilience, supported by healthy pipelines that indicate sustained performance ahead.

成長並不限於未償餘額。我們看到投資承諾顯著增加，這增強了我們對該投資組合長期可持續成長的信心。儘管存在正常的再融資週轉率，但情況依然如此。我們的兩大專業貸款業務持續展現韌性，健康的貸款儲備預示著未來業績將持續成長。

Our CRE business increased 4.2% quarter-over-quarter with growth covering multifamily, industrial, office, retail and construction. We expect growth in outstanding balances to continue for the remainder of the year as our commitments established in the previous few quarters fund up. We remain well below our internal concentration limits on this portfolio.

我們的商業房地產業務環比成長 4.2%，成長涵蓋多戶住宅、工業、辦公、零售和建築。我們預計，隨著前幾季已履行的承諾逐步兌現，未償餘額將在今年剩餘時間內繼續成長。我們目前對該投資組合的集中度遠低於內部限制。

Let's move to slide 7. I'll keep this brief. Credit quality continues to be very strong. NPA's not guaranteed by the US government decreased $7 million to $67 million. The resulting nonperforming assets to period end loans and repossessed assets decreased 4 basis points to 27 basis points. Committed criticized assets increased this quarter, but remained very low relative to historical standards.

我們來看第7張投影片。我就長話短說。信貸品質依然非常強勁。美國政府未擔保的不良資產減少了 700 萬美元，降至 6,700 萬美元。導致期末不良資產與貸款及收回資產比率下降 4 個基點至 27 個基點。本季已承諾的不良資產增加​​，但與歷史標準相比仍然非常低。

We had net charge-offs of $3.6 million during the quarter, averaging 2 basis points over the last 12 months. Importantly, the limited charge-offs we've seen recently showed no patterns or concentrations that raise concerns about specific business lines or geographies. Looking ahead, we expect net charge-offs to remain well below historical norms.

本季淨沖銷金額為 360 萬美元，過去 12 個月的平均沖銷率為 2 個基點。重要的是，我們最近看到的有限核銷案例沒有顯示出任何模式或集中度，這不會引起人們對特定業務線或地區的擔憂。展望未來，我們預期淨沖銷額將遠低於歷史平均。

We took a provision of $2 million this quarter, primarily reflecting loan growth. Our combined allowance for credit losses is $328 million or 1.32% in outstanding loans, which is a healthy reserve level. Our exposure to NDFIs is approximately 2% of total loans, with the vast majority in the two highest credit quality subcategories, subscription lines and residential mortgage warehouse lines. Exposure outside of these categories is very granular, with an average loan size of $8 million. We have no credit exposure to companies recently publicized.

本季我們提列了 200 萬美元的準備金，主要反映了貸款成長。我們的信貸損失準備金總額為 3.28 億美元，佔未償貸款的 1.32%，這是一個健康的準備金水準。我們對非金融機構的貸款曝險約佔總貸款額的 2%，其中絕大部分屬於信用品質最高的兩個子類別：認購額度和房屋抵押貸款倉儲額度。這些類別之外的風險敞口非常細化，平均貸款規模為 800 萬美元。我們對近期公開揭露的公司沒有任何信貸風險敞口。

Our strong performance in the credit space speaks volumes about our disciplined approach. We've built a strong reputation through consistent execution and excellence in credit over time.

我們在信貸領域的優異表現充分體現了我們嚴謹的經營理念。我們憑藉著長期穩定的執行力和卓越的信貸服務，建立了良好的聲譽。

I'll now turn the call over to Scott.

現在我將把電話交給史考特。

Thank you, Stacy. Turning to our operating results for the quarter on slides 9 and 10. Total fee income increased $7.1 million on a linked quarter basis, contributing $204.4 million to revenue. Total trading revenue, which includes trading-related net interest income was $29.8 million, relatively consistent with the prior quarter. Trading fees were up $1.1 million, largely driven by increased municipal bond trading in a more stable market environment.

謝謝你，史黛西。接下來請看投影片 9 和 10，了解我們本季的經營績效。與上一季相比，總手續費收入增加了 710 萬美元，為公司貢獻了 2.044 億美元的收入。包括交易相關淨利息收入在內的總交易收入為 2,980 萬美元，與上一季基本持平。交易費用增加了 110 萬美元，這主要是由於在更穩定的市場環境下市政債券交易量增加所致。

Our trading business is focused on very high-quality fixed income products largely Agency MBS municipal bonds. As Stacy mentioned, investment banking revenue, which includes investment banking fees and syndication fees, was a record quarter coming in at $16.1 million driven by impressive municipal bond underwriting activity.

我們的交易業務主要集中在高品質的固定收益產品上，主要是機構抵押貸款支持證券（MBS）和市政債券。正如 Stacy 所提到的，投資銀行收入（包括投資銀行費用和銀團貸款費用）創下季度紀錄，達到 1,610 萬美元，這主要得益於市政債券承銷活動的強勁表現。

Turning to slide 10. Our asset management and transaction businesses increased $1.2 million linked quarter. I'll keep my commentary brief here because as you can see, each of these businesses has produced strong and consistent results quarter-over-quarter. I would like to call out fiduciary and asset management revenue. While third quarter revenue remained relatively flat compared to the prior quarter, it's important to note that second quarter results were elevated by seasonal tax preparation fees.

翻到第10張投影片。我們的資產管理和交易業務環比成長了120萬美元。我在這裡就不多贅述了，因為正如你所看到的，這些企業每季都取得了強勁且穩定的業績。我想重點談談信託和資產管理收入。雖然第三季營收與上一季相比基本持平，但值得注意的是，第二季的業績受到季節性報稅費用的提振。

In contrast, the third quarter performance was more reflective of typical run rate, excluding seasonal items, with growth driven by increased trust fees resulting from higher market valuations and continued customer expansion. AUMA grew 4.1% to $122.7 billion in the third quarter, the highest quarter on record. We are very proud of the stable fee engines we have built here over many years.

相較之下，第三季業績更能反映典型的運作速度（不包括季節性項目），成長主要得益於市場估值上升和客戶持續擴張帶來的信託費用增加。第三季資產管理規模成長4.1%，達1,227億美元，創歷史新高。我們為多年來在這裡建立的穩定收費機制感到非常自豪。

And now I'll hand the call over to Marty to cover the financials.

現在我將把電話交給馬蒂，讓他來介紹財務狀況。

Thank you, Scott. Turning to slide 12. Net interest income increased $9.5 million and reported net interest margin expanded 11 basis points. Excluding trading, core net interest income increased $11.3 million and core margin grew 4 basis points, driven by several factors. First, fixed rate asset repricing in both the securities portfolio and the fixed rate portion of the loan portfolio; second, incremental deposit repricing opportunities in both CDs and interest-bearing core deposit categories; and third, growth in loans and deposits.

謝謝你，斯科特。翻到第12張投影片。淨利息收入增加 950 萬美元，報告淨利差擴大 11 個基點。剔除交易業務後，核心淨利息收入增加 1,130 萬美元，核心利潤率成長 4 個基點，主要受以下幾個因素推動：首先，證券組合和貸款組合中的固定利率部分進行固定利率資產重新定價；其次，CD 和計息核心存款類別中增加存款重新定價的機會；第三，貸款和存款成長。

Since Q2 of '24, core margin has grown 22 basis points in total, which is an average of 4 to 5 basis points per quarter. We expect those drivers to continue to support both margin and NII growth in future quarters. Looking at headline net interest margin growth of 11 basis points and specifically, the 7-basis-point incremental growth over the 4 basis points we saw in core margin, that was largely driven by the denominator effect of the decline in the average balance of the trading book quarter-over-quarter.

自 2024 年第二季以來，核心利潤率總共成長了 22 個基點，平均每季成長 4 到 5 個基點。我們預計這些因素將在未來幾季繼續支撐利潤率和淨利息收入的成長。從淨利差成長 11 個基點來看，尤其是核心息差成長 4 個基點，淨利差成長 7 個基點，這主要是由於交易帳簿平均餘額較上季下降的分母效應所致。

Given the thinner spread on the trading book, the NII impact of the balance decline was very small. We typically expect average trading assets to be near the levels we had in the third quarter. Although from time to time, our debt will hold more or less driven by market conditions and expectations of customer demand.

鑑於交易帳簿的價差較小，餘額下降對淨利息收入的影響非常小。我們通常預期平均交易資產將接近第三季的水平。雖然我們的債務有時會受到市場狀況和客戶需求預期的影響，但整體而言，債務規模會保持穩定。

Turning to slide 13. Total expenses increased $15.3 million. Personnel expenses were up $11.6 million. Regular compensation increased $3.1 million, largely reflecting transitional payments as we realign our workforce to meet the current and future needs of the business. Incentive compensation costs grew $7.9 million with $5.4 million related to cash-based incentives reflecting stronger underwriting and loan origination activity. The remaining $2.5 million increase reflects higher deferred compensation costs, which are offset in other gains and losses.

翻到第13張幻燈片。總支出增加了1530萬美元。人事支出增加了1160萬美元。常規薪酬增加了 310 萬美元，主要反映了我們在調整員工隊伍以滿足公司當前和未來需求時支付的過渡性款項。激勵性薪酬成本增加了 790 萬美元，其中 540 萬美元與現金激勵有關，反映了承銷和貸款發放活動的增強。剩餘的 250 萬美元成長反映了遞延薪酬成本的增加，這在其他收益和損失中被抵消了。

Deferred compensation expense totaled $5.8 million for the quarter. Non-personnel expense rose $3.6 million, mainly due to mortgage banking costs. Last quarter's expenses there were lower than normal seasonal trends due to lower levels of mortgage servicing related expenses.

本季遞延薪資支出總計580萬美元。非人事支出增加了 360 萬美元，主要原因是抵押貸款銀行成本。由於抵押貸款服務相關費用較低，上季度該支出低於正常的季節性趨勢。

Slide 14 provides an update on our outlook for full year 2025. We have tightened up our ranges for most categories since we are further through the year. Loan growth has been robust over the last two quarters, and our pipelines are strong across both C&I and CRE.

第 14 頁投影片更新了我們對 2025 年全年的展望。由於一年已過半，我們收緊了大多數類別的價格範圍。過去兩季貸款成長強勁，我們在商業和工業貸款以及商業房地產貸款方面的業務儲備都很充足。

We feel very good about our full year loan growth projections of 5% to 7%. For net interest income, we expect $1.325 billion to $1.35 billion. And for fees and commissions, we expect $775 million to $810 million, reflecting good momentum in that set of businesses. Our guide for total revenue is mid-single-digit growth versus prior year.

我們對全年貸款成長預期（5%至7%）感到非常樂觀。淨利息收入預計為 13.25 億美元至 13.5 億美元。至於手續費和佣金，我們預計為 7.75 億美元至 8.1 億美元，反映出該類業務的良好發展勢頭。我們預計總收入將比上年實現中等個位數成長。

As a reminder, I will note interest rate levels and especially curve steepness can affect the geography of total trading revenue between NII and fees, but that shift would be neutral to total revenue. We expect our full year efficiency ratio to be in the 65% to 66% range, reflecting the higher quarter-specific actual expenses we saw in Q3.

需要提醒的是，利率水平，尤其是利率曲線陡峭程度，可能會影響淨利息收入和手續費之間的總交易收入組成，但這種變化對總收入而言是中性的。我們預計全年效率比率將在 65% 至 66% 之間，這反映了我們在第三季度看到的較高的季度特定實際支出。

Finally, regarding credit nonperforming assets declined sequentially and portfolio credit quality is exceptionally strong. This reinforces our expectation that charge-offs will remain low in the near term and 2025 provision expense will be well below 2024 levels.

最後，信貸不良資產環比下降，投資組合信貸品質異常強勁。這進一步印證了我們的預期，即短期內沖銷額將保持在較低水平，2025 年的撥備支出將遠低於 2024 年的水平。

With that, I would like to hand the call back to the operator for Q&A, which will be followed by closing remarks from Stacy.

接下來，我將把電話交還給接線員進行問答環節，之後 Stacy 將作總結發言。

(Operator Instructions) Michael Rose, Raymond James.

（操作說明）邁克爾·羅斯，雷蒙德·詹姆斯。

Maybe we could just start on loan growth. You guys have had pretty high expectations for the bulk of the year that's largely come through. You've talked about the pipelines being relatively strong. Can you just talk about some of the competitive forces maybe that you're seeing by market? And we have seen some mergers announced within some of those markets. Can you just discuss maybe some of the opportunities there. Maybe too early, but is there any reason to expect that you shouldn't be able to generate the same level of growth next year as you did this year? If you can just talk about the puts and takes.

或許我們可以先從貸款成長入手。今年大部分時間裡，你們都抱持著很高的期望，而這些期望也基本實現了。你曾經提到輸油管相對堅固。您能否談談您目前在市場上觀察到的一些競爭力量？我們看到，在其中一些市場中，已經宣布了一些併購交易。您能否談談那裡的一些機會？現在說這些可能為時過早，但是有什麼理由認為你明年無法取得與今年相同的成長水平？如果你們能只談談買入和賣出的情況就好了。

Sure. Michael, thank you. I think loan growth has been really a big story for us. I mean in the first quarter, we were tracking pretty well and kind of the noise around the tariffs kind of slowed sentiment a little bit. But second quarter, third quarter, both quarters consistently around 2.5%, so 10% annualized growth without significant contribution from mortgage finance, which is obviously, we hope to see on the outstanding side more so in the fourth quarter. But we feel really good about where we're at.

當然。邁克爾，謝謝你。我認為貸款成長對我們來說一直是一個非常重要的方面。我的意思是，第一季我們的業績表現相當不錯，但圍繞關稅的各種傳言多少抑制了市場情緒。但第二季和第三季度，這兩個季度都穩定在 2.5% 左右，因此年化成長率為 10%，而抵押貸款融資並沒有做出重大貢獻，顯然，我們希望在第四季度看到抵押貸款融資在未償債務方面有更大的貢獻。但我們對現狀感到非常滿意。

We've got room on commercial real estate. Obviously, we limit more so than others, our appetite around how much commercial real estate will do, but we're under our concentration limits there. Energy has been a headwind this year. I don't expect it to be a tailwind next year, but I also don't expect it to be a headwind. And so that underlying growth that you see in just core C&I, personal loans on the wealth side has really done very well.

我們還有商業不動產的空間。顯然，我們比其他人更謹慎地控制我們在商業房地產方面的投資規模，但我們在該領域的投資集中度仍然在限制之內。今年能源產業一直面臨不利因素。我不認為明年會是順風，但也不認為會是逆風。因此，您在核心 C&I 和財富管理方面的個人貸款所看到的潛在成長確實非常好。

We're very well positioned to be able to grow at a very strong level. We're obviously not providing guidance for 2026, but obviously, we feel good about where we're at and feel good about sustaining that into the fourth quarter.

我們具備非常有利的地位，能夠實現強勁成長。我們顯然不會提供 2026 年的業績指引，但顯然，我們對目前的狀況感到滿意，並且有信心將這種狀況保持到第四季度。

Obviously, as you think about merger activity in our footprint, that disruption creates opportunity for us. And obviously, we feel very well positioned to take advantage of that. Some of the fastest-growing periods of my career have been when there was great disruption in the market for M&A. And so we're working very hard to position ourselves. And I think being a source of strength and stability and growth during a time of disruption should position us well, both with talent and with prospects in the market.

顯然，考慮到我們所在地區的併購活動，這種變革為我們創造了機會。顯然，我們覺得自己已經做好了充分的準備來利用這一點。我職涯中發展最快的幾個時期，都是併購市場發生巨大動盪的時期。因此，我們正在努力調整自身定位。我認為，在動盪時期成為力量、穩定和成長的源泉，應該能讓我們在人才和市場前景方面都處於有利地位。

Appreciate the question. And maybe just as a flip side of that, just given where capital levels are, given where the stock is and buybacks, can you just frame kind of capital use? And given that we are seeing pretty quick approval times, and a more favorable regulatory backdrop. Does M&A enter the equation for you guys again? Or is there just too many buyers out there searching for too few deals?

感謝您的提問。反過來想，考慮到目前的資本水準、股票價格和股票回購情況，能否對資本用途做出一些規劃？鑑於審批速度相當快，監管環境也更有利。你們還會再考慮併購嗎？或者說，是不是買家太多，可賣房源太少？

From my perspective, the order of capital allocation remains, obviously, we want to grow organically. We are at our core, an organic growth company. And so that's our primary use of capital. Secondary, we'll look at share repurchases. We'll look at the dividend levels and things like that over time. You saw we printed over 10% TCE this quarter. I'm not sure that's a good thing or a bad thing, but obviously proud to have very strong capital. But we did that and repurchased a reasonably large amount of shares this quarter.

從我的角度來看，資本配置順序顯然保持不變，我們希望實現有機成長。我們本質上是一家有機成長型公司。這就是我們對資金的主要用途。其次，我們將關注股票回購。我們會持續關注股利水準等因素。如你所見，我們本季的總有效資本利用率超過了10%。我不確定這是好事還是壞事，但顯然我為擁有雄厚的資本而感到自豪。但我們確實這樣做了，並且在本季度回購了相當數量的股票。

And then obviously, M&A is something that exists for us that we'll look at. We're focused on strong core deposit franchises. We've kind of identified in the past the types of things that would be interesting to us. And if those things become available, then we'll be interested.

當然，併購也是我們需要關注的領域。我們專注於強大的核心存款業務。我們過去已經大致確定了我們感興趣的事情類型。如果這些東西能夠面世，我們就會感興趣。

But we're not interested in doing a deal just for the sake of doing one or because somebody else did it or because the regulatory environment is more conducive to it. They are a lot of work, and they are very disruptive. And so they need to be worth the effort and really add strategic value long term. And so we're interested, but I think we're going to be very cautious about how we think about that.

但我們對為了達成交易而達成交易，或者因為別人達成了交易，或者因為監管環境更有利於達成交易，都不感興趣。它們工作量很大，而且非常擾亂秩序。因此，它們必須值得投入精力，並且能夠真正帶來長期的策略價值。所以，我們對此很感興趣，但我認為我們會非常謹慎地考慮這個問題。

Really appreciate it, Stacy. And just finally, I just want to wish Heather happy birthday.

非常感謝，斯黛西。最後，我只想祝希瑟生日快樂。

Jon Arfstrom, RBC Capital Markets.

Jon Arfstrom，加拿大皇家銀行資本市場。

Marty, maybe for you. You touched on it a little bit in your prepared comments, but on slide 12 in the -- on the core margin, how do you feel about that trend in the core margin, excluding trading? Is it still that kind of grind higher? You just kind of give us some of the puts and takes in terms of what you expect there?

馬蒂，也許對你來說是這樣。您在準備好的評論中稍微提到了這一點，但是關於核心利潤率，您在第 12 張幻燈片中對此有何看法（不包括交易）？現在還是那種需要不斷努力才能爬到更高層級的難度嗎？您能簡單說說您對那邊情況的預期嗎？

Yes. We do still think that that is a grind higher trend. The repricing of the fixed rate portion of the loan book and the fixed rate securities book, those are trends that will continue. We had just over $600 million of securities basically priced up around 100 basis points this quarter and around $200 million of fixed rate loans priced up similarly and those trends don't last forever, but those are durable for a number of quarters over time.

是的。我們仍然認為這是一個穩定上升的趨勢。貸款組合中固定利率部分和固定利率證券組合的重新定價，這些趨勢將會持續下去。本季我們有超過 6 億美元的證券定價上漲了約 100 個基點，還有約 2 億美元的固定利率貸款定價也類似，這些趨勢不會永遠持續下去，但隨著時間的推移，這些趨勢會持續好幾個季度。

And on the deposit pricing, we were able to do a little bit more on the -- just repricing around the edges on the core deposit book earlier in the quarter and saw no adverse impact on that from depositors. So we still think that those trends have legs.

在存款定價方面，我們能夠在季度初對核心存款帳簿進行一些調整，只是在邊緣部分重新定價，而且沒有發現這對儲戶產生任何不利影響。所以我們仍然認為這些趨勢會持續下去。

Okay. And then you're also saying the trading book probably stays relatively flat in the fourth quarter. Is that right?

好的。而且您也表示，第四季的交易帳簿可能會保持相對穩定。是這樣嗎？

Yes. I mean that's our base expectation. We need to have -- our desk needs to have a specific reason to want to move higher or lower than that kind of point that they are typically at -- and -- but that's a reasonable assumption based on what we can see today.

是的。我的意思是，這是我們的基本期望。我們需要——我們的辦公桌需要一個具體的理由，才能想要移動到高於或低於他們通常所在的位置——而且——但根據我們今天所看到的，這是一個合理的假設。

Okay. Good. And then, Stacy, you mentioned it a couple of times, so I want to give the opportunity to talk about it. But you talked about the mortgage finance launch in that business funding up and maybe making contributions -- greater contributions in the coming quarters. Can you talk a little bit more about what's possible there and the timeline so we can understand that?

好的。好的。史泰西，你之前也提到過幾次，所以我想給你一個機會談談這件事。但您談到了抵押貸款融資業務的啟動，該業務正在籌集資金，並可能在未來幾季做出更大的貢獻。您能否再詳細談談那裡有哪些可能性以及時間表，以便我們更好地理解？

Sure. So I think we've previously talked about having $500 million in commitments by the end of the year. I think that's very doable. I think the utilization there will be plus or minus 50%. As it matures, we'll kind of get a better feel for that, but that's kind of how we're modeling it today.

當然。所以我想我們之前討論過，到今年年底要獲得 5 億美元的承諾資金。我認為這完全可行。我認為那裡的利用率會在正負 50% 左右。隨著技術的成熟，我們對此有更深刻的理解，但這就是我們目前模擬的方式。

I think we ended the third quarter with about $70 million, plus or minus in mortgage finance loans outstanding. And so that kind of gives you a little bit of a runway. Obviously, we intend to grow that. And so we expect as we get out into '26 that the commitment level will increase pretty materially from there. We're very comfortable with that. The recourse there, the nature of the collateral and how we perfect on the collateral makes it a very safe lending aspect for us that we like, fits our profile well in addition to fitting our kind of mortgage ecosystem here with mortgage trading and mortgage TBA hedging that we do and then just the core mortgage finance that we're adding here is an important leg of that. So we see real growth opportunity here for the foreseeable future here for sure.

我認為第三季末，我們未償還的抵押貸款總額約為 7000 萬美元，上下浮動。這樣就給了你一些緩衝時間。顯然，我們打算發展壯大這個產業。因此我們預計，到了 2026 年，投入水準將會大幅提高。我們對此非常滿意。那裡的追索權、抵押品的性質以及我們如何完善抵押品，使其成為我們非常看重的貸款方面，非常符合我們的業務模式，也符合我們在這裡開展的抵押貸款交易和抵押貸款TBA對沖的抵押貸款生態系統，而我們在這裡增加的核心抵押貸款融資是其中的一個重要組成部分。因此，我們肯定看到，在可預見的未來，這裡蘊藏著真正的成長機會。

Okay. That's helpful context.

好的。提供的背景資訊很有幫助。

Peter Winter, D.A. Davidson.

彼得溫特，D.A.戴維森。

I wanted to ask about just the fee income range. It's still pretty wide with just one quarter left. And maybe if you could talk about the puts and takes within that range because you did tighten the range on net interest income?

我想諮詢一下費用收入範圍。雖然只剩下四分之一，但還是很寬。或許您可以談談該範圍內的買賣操作，因為您確實收緊了淨利息收入的範圍？

Yes. Peter, we did tighten the range on fee income as well a bit. But as you know, those are just great businesses to be in. They've got really nice growth dynamics over time. It is a little bit more challenging to pinpoint any given quarter in those fee businesses, but we think that we've got good activity going across the board, whether that's -- fiduciary has good backdrop for both production of new volume. And so far, our market is behaving pretty well.

是的。Peter，我們也稍微收緊了費用收入的範圍。但正如你所知，這些都是非常好的行業。隨著時間的推移，它們的成長勢頭非常好。在這些收費業務中，要準確指出某個特定季度的情況有點困難，但我們認為，無論是在哪個方面，我們都取得了良好的業績——信託業務都有良好的背景來創造新的業務量。到目前為止，我們的市場表現相當不錯。

Transaction card had a nice growth rate year in and year out. Brokerage and trading that's the most difficult to really be able to give any solid guidance on. But I will say this, with the expectation for some lower rates in the fourth quarter, that at least gives you a constructive backdrop for that line of business.

交易卡業務每年都保持著良好的成長率。經紀和交易是最難給出任何可靠指導的領域。但我想說的是，鑑於預計第四季度利率會有所下降，這至少為該業務線提供了一個建設性的背景。

Okay. And then just on the updated expense guidance, does it imply you're expecting expenses to be down in the fourth quarter? And if you could provide maybe some expense growth color for next year. Just would you expect expenses to moderate? And I guess, what's a normal expense growth rate for BOK?

好的。那麼，關於更新後的費用預期，是否意味著您預期第四季的費用會下降？如果您能提供一些關於明年費用成長的資訊就更好了。你認為開支會有所緩和嗎？那麼，BOK的正常費用成長率是多少呢？

Yes, we'll probably stop short of doing any 2026 guidance, but I think it might be helpful to just talk about Q3 expense levels and especially within the personnel because that was a little off trend for us. And so if you look at that $226 million expense for personnel in Q3, a couple of components in there that I think are just good to understand.

是的，我們可能不會給出任何 2026 年的業績指引，但我認為談談第三季度的支出水平，特別是人員方面的支出水平，可能會有所幫助，因為這與我們目前的趨勢略有偏差。因此，如果你看一下第三季 2.26 億美元的人員​​支出，其中有幾個組成部分我認為有必要了解一下。

So $5.8 million was the level of deferred comp in that $226 million. And as you know, Peter, deferred comp, some quarters, that's positive. Some quarters, it's negative. The average is small, but it's truly inconsequential to EPS because it is always offset in the other gains and losses. And so if you're going to -- some people adjust out the gains and losses in total. But if you do that, you really have to adjust it out of personnel anyway. In fact, when we do our guidance, we leave it out of both sides. But the $5.8 million that doesn't recur. That's some quarters up and some quarters down. So that's one, deferred comp.

因此，在這 2.26 億美元中，遞延薪酬的金額為 580 萬美元。彼得，你也知道，遞延補償金在某些季度是好事。在某些方面，結果卻是負面的。雖然平均值很小，但對每股盈餘 (EPS) 而言，這實際上無關緊要，因為它總是會被其他收益和損失所抵消。所以如果你打算——有些人會把收益和損失全部調整掉。但如果你這樣做，無論如何你都必須從人員方面進行調整。事實上，我們在提供指導時，會將其排除在雙方之外。但其中有 580 萬美元是不會再發生的。這其中既有上漲也有下跌的季度。所以，這是其中一項，遞延補償。

Two, there's a little bit of workforce realignment there, so that's nearly $3 million in the current period. So you want to be thoughtful about that.

第二，還有一些人員調整，所以本期將花費近 300 萬美元。所以你要認真考慮這個問題。

And then third, the incentive comp, $5.1 million cash incentive comp higher quarter-over-quarter. And that's production driven, some i-banking, some loan production. And really, throughout the wealth business and other businesses to me that's kind of spread throughout the company. So that will give you a little bit of sense for how to think about that Q3 number going forward.

第三，激勵薪酬方面，現金激勵薪酬較上月增加 510 萬美元。這是以生產為導向的，一部分是投資銀行業務，一部分是貸款業務。實際上，在我看來，這種現像在財富管理業務和其他業務中都普遍存在，並且遍及整個公司。這樣一來，你就能對如何看待第三季的數據有一個大致的了解了。

Okay. Just one last question. Stacy, I'll give it a shot. I just want to follow up with Jon's question with the mortgage finance. Just I'm wondering if you could put some guardrails around materially higher next year. It just seems with the Fed starting to cut rates, I mean, really could be a significant grower for you next year?

好的。最後一個問題。史泰西，我試試看。我只是想就Jon提出的房貸問題做個後續說明。我只是想問，明年能否在價格大幅上漲的地區設置一些護欄之類的東西。聯準會開始降息，這似乎預示著明年你的收益可能會大幅成長？

I agree with that assessment. I think that -- I think I indicated 500 commitments by the end of the year, roughly 50% utilization and then materially higher in 2026. Obviously, we're going to be very careful here about providing any 2026 guidance because we're not prepared to do that. We'll do that when we get together in January, we'll provide very detailed guidance around that. But we're obviously very optimistic. We have a strong appetite to grow it. We believe it's very low credit risk. And so I think you'll see us be very open about growing that very aggressively in 2026.

我同意這種評價。我認為——我認為我曾表示到年底將有 500 項承諾，利用率約為 50%，然後在 2026 年大幅提高。顯然，我們會非常謹慎地提供任何關於 2026 年的指導意見，因為我們還沒有做好準備。我們將在1月份開會時討論這個問題，屆時我們將提供非常詳細的指導。但我們顯然非常樂觀。我們非常渴望發展壯大它。我們認為其信用風險非常低。所以我認為，你們將會看到我們在 2026 年非常積極地推進這一領域的成長。

David Chiaverini, Jefferies.

David Chiaverini，傑富瑞集團。

I wanted to follow up on Peter's question there. To ask it a different way, how high as a percent of loans could mortgage finance eventually get, say, over two to three years?

我想就彼得提出的問題做個後續說明。換句話說，假設在兩到三年內，抵押貸款融資最終能佔貸款總額的多少百分比？

We typically look at -- if you look at kind of the areas that we have our concentrations in, you think about things, we think about things in terms of percent of capital, and so obviously, we have lots of capital, and we have lots of capacity to grow that. When we start in any area, we don't start where we want to end up. We learn from it, we get better, we grow. We understand what the client selection opportunities are and what the market gives us. And so it's hard to look out and say with great certainty, but we have a very long runway here in mortgage finance. And we're -- we don't see where we're necessarily going to be constrained internally in the next couple of years around this. At some point, we would be there. It would be a point in time where we would reach our kind of interim risk appetite, if you will. But we're nowhere close to that today. We're very excited about the possibilities here and see a pretty long runway to grow it.

我們通常會關注——如果你看看我們集中投資的領域，你會想到一些事情，我們會從資本百分比的角度來考慮這些事情，所以很明顯，我們有很多資本，而且我們有很多成長潛力。當我們開始涉足任何領域時，我們並非一開始就想到達終點。我們從中學到教訓，不斷進步，不斷成長。我們了解客戶選擇機會以及市場能為我們帶來什麼。因此，很難非常肯定地說，但在抵押貸款融資領域還有很長的發展空間。而且我們——我們看不出未來幾年內我們在這方面會在內部受到哪些限制。總有一天，我們會到達那裡。如果可以這麼說的話，這將是我們達到某種階段性風險承受能力的轉捩點。但我們今天離那個目標還差得很遠。我們對這裡蘊藏的潛力感到非常興奮，並看到了它很長的發展空間。

And in terms of the competitive environment for mortgage finance, are you seeing competitors pull back from that business at all?

就抵押貸款融資的競爭環境而言，您是否看到競爭對手有縮減該業務的跡象？

Not particularly. I mean not today. I mean, there have been some who pulled out over liquidity issues, call it, a couple of years ago, but if you think about the environment specifically to today, not necessarily, although it does fall under the non-depository financial institutional lending. And so I think that there will be folks who look at that and think about that maybe a little bit differently because of the scrutiny that's evolved from that. But this is one of the most secure areas of winning in our view, no matter how it's classified that we can do.

倒也不是。我的意思是，今天不行。我的意思是，幾年前確實有一些人因為流動性問題而撤資，但如果你具體考慮一下今天的環境，就不一定了，儘管它確實屬於非存款金融機構貸款的範疇。因此，我認為有些人會因為由此產生的審視而對此產生一些不同的看法。但我們認為，無論我們如何定義，這都是我們能夠取得勝利的最穩健的領域之一。

And so we feel very comfortable with that. We are bringing to market a very experienced team, a very strong leadership group who's well known by the participants in the market. We have synergies with our existing businesses that most do not have. So with our mortgage trading business, with our mortgage TBA hedging business, there's enormous synergy with the same clients that our mortgage finance prospects. And so we really think there's enormous opportunity here where 1 plus 1 is 3.

因此，我們對此感到非常滿意。我們將一支經驗豐富的團隊、一個強大的領導團隊推向市場，他們在市場參與者中享有盛譽。我們與現有業務之間存在著大多數公司所不具備的綜效。因此，我們的抵押貸款交易業務和抵押貸款TBA對沖業務與我們的抵押貸款融資潛在客戶有著巨大的協同效應。因此，我們認為這裡蘊藏著巨大的機會，1+1=3。

Mortgage finance is going to grow on its own, but we also think it will enhance other businesses as well. And frankly, even on the treasury side and the cash management side, the corporate treasury side, we're seeing opportunities that perhaps we didn't foresee as we entered this business. We have a very strong delivery platform on the treasury side that -- as those begin to explore full relationship are very impressed with relative to where they are. And so we're seeing much more traction there than perhaps we anticipated.

抵押貸款業務本身將會成長，而且我們認為它也會促進其他業務的發展。坦白說，即使在財務和現金管理方面，在公司財務方面，我們也看到了一些我們在進入這個行業時可能沒有預料到的機會。我們在資金方面擁有非常強大的交付平台，當那些開始探索全面合作關係的人看到它時，都對其印象深刻，覺得它比他們目前所處的水平要好得多。因此，我們看到這方面的進展比我們預期的要好得多。

So this is -- we talk about the loans, and I understand why they're a strong driver of earning assets. But this is about a complete and full relationship. And so that's part of why we've entered this business in the way we have with hiring a very experienced team, investing in the technology tools to be successful. And so I think you're going to see a lot of success here.

所以，我們來談談貸款，我明白為什麼貸款是創造資產的重要驅動力。但這關乎一段完整而圓滿的關係。所以，這也是我們以目前這種方式進入這個行業的原因之一：我們聘請了一支經驗豐富的團隊，並投資於技術工具以求成功。所以我認為你們在這裡會取得很大的成功。

Brett Rabatin, Hovde Group.

Brett Rabatin，Hovde集團。

I wanted to just go back to loan growth. And I noticed that you guys grew quite a bit in office this quarter. And so I was just curious if you were seeing opportunities where others maybe were trying to reduce exposure relative to certain CRE buckets, kind of given you're a lot lower relative to some peers on concentration? And then maybe just any other segments that you're seeing people pull back from, whether it be multifamily or construction that might also be an opportunity?

我只想回到貸款成長的軌道上來。我注意到你們這季在辦公室裡進步很大。所以我很好奇，鑑於你們的投資集中度比一些同行低得多，你們是否看到了其他投資者可能試圖減少在某些商業房地產領域的投資機會？然後，或許其他一些人們正在減少投資的領域，例如多戶住宅或建築業，也可能蘊藏著機會？

Yes, I would say from -- office is really consistent with where it was the same quarter a year ago. I mean the balances are going to ebb and flow a little bit from period to period just based on activity. We're not afraid of office. Obviously, it depends upon who the tenants are, what the lease role looks like, the term of the leases, those types of things. I think much like there was -- everything was going to go away in retail because of Amazon, that didn't prove to be true.

是的，我認為——辦公室的情況與去年同期非常一致。我的意思是，根據經濟活動的不同，收支平衡會在不同時期略有波動。我們不怕當官。顯然，這取決於租戶是誰、租賃合約的具體條款、租賃期限等等。我覺得就像以前那樣——人們認為亞馬遜的出現將導致零售業的一切消失，但事實證明並非如此。

I think office is going to prove to be a better class than people originally were concerned about because of changing work preferences. But I think people are returning to the office. Workspace is important. And we're not leading with office per se. But for the right deal, for the right opportunity with the right tenant profile, we are in the business of making office loans. And so you see a little bit of that this quarter.

我認為，由於工作偏好的改變，辦公室職業最終會比人們最初擔心的要好得多。但我認為人們正在返回辦公室。工作空間很重要。我們並非以辦公室本身作為切入點。但是，對於合適的交易、合適的機會以及合適的租戶，我們就會從事辦公大樓貸款業務。所以本季你會看到一些這樣的情況。

Obviously, our focus is multifamily and industrial primarily, and we're seeing good opportunities there. We see kind of a good runway to kind of fill out the bucket, if you will, in commercial real estate and continue to grow the outstanding there.

顯然，我們主要關注多戶住宅和工業地產，並且我們看到了這些領域良好的發展機會。我們看到商業房地產領域還有很大的發展空間，可以繼續擴大其未開發的份額。

Okay. That's helpful, Stacy. And then the other question I wanted to ask was just around the strong growth this quarter and really the last year AUMA. And just how much of that might be to market versus new clients, new customers? Any fee changes that might drive the revenue relative to flattish going forward in 3Q to 2Q?

好的。那很有幫助，史泰西。然後，我想問的另一個問題是關於本季以及去年 AUMA 的強勁成長。其中有多少是用於市場推廣，又有多少是用於開發新客戶？是否有任何費用變化可能會推動收入相對於第三季和第二季基本持平的局面？

Sure. So this quarter specifically, as we have on slide 10 that we're getting both. And we have a fair amount of planned distributions and natural churn in that business. So our actual new asset attraction is significant. But if you look at the net at the end of the quarter, it was half and half.

當然。所以具體到本季度，正如我們在第 10 張投影片中所述，我們將同時獲得這兩項。而且，我們在這個業務中有相當數量的計劃內分銷和自然流失。因此，我們實際上吸引到的新資產數量相當可觀。但如果你看第一節結束時的淨勝分，你會發現雙方各佔一半。

We had -- of the $4.8 billion increase for the quarter, it was increased by both market valuation improvements accounted for about half of that and the other was new business growth -- net new business growth. So it's a combination of the two.

本季成長了 48 億美元，其中一半左右來自市場估值改善，另一半來自新業務成長——淨新業務成長。所以它是兩者的結合。

We feel good about -- and it's really across the broad spectrum. It's safekeeping assets, its fiduciary assets across all the business lines inside of wealth from retail brokerage to the institutional side.

我們感覺很好——而且這種感覺確實遍及各個方面。它負責保管資產，以及在財富管理的所有業務領域（從零售經紀到機構業務）中受託管理的資產。

Woody Lay, KBW.

伍迪萊，KBW。

Just wanted to start on trading income. How do you think about the mix shift of trading income between fees and NII based on the expectation of the deepening yield curves?

我只是想開始透過交易賺錢。您如何看待基於殖利率曲線下移預期而導致的交易收入在手續費和淨利息收入之間的結構轉變？

Yes. So this is Marty. So to the extent that you get a little more steepness in the curve, you're going to see a little bit more of that revenue be in the NII category and a little bit less in fees. And so that's a reasonable thing to assume. But the total -- we're really paying attention to how the business performs and adding those two together, that's really the right way to think about trends in the business.

是的。這就是馬蒂。因此，如果曲線更加陡峭，那麼淨利息收入 (NII) 的比例就會更高，而手續費的比例就會更低。所以，這種假設是合理的。但總的來說——我們非常關注業務表現，並將這兩者結合起來，這才是思考業務趨勢的正確方法。

Yes. Okay. And then maybe shifting over to credit. Obviously, really clean, but it did look like criticized assets picked up just a touch. Do you have the dollar amount that had increased, and any color you can give there?

是的。好的。然後或許會轉向信貸。顯然，非常乾淨，但看起來之前受到批評的方面似乎略有改善。您知道增加的金額是多少嗎？如果有，能否提供一些顏色資訊？

It increased like $50 million, almost $25 billion in loans. If you look at criticized levels as a percent of Tier 1 capital, I mean, it crept up a little bit, but it's too small to move. I mean one loan can move the number here a little bit. So if you think about we're at 11.3% at the end of the third quarter, we were at 12% at the end of the fourth quarter last year, kind of at a similar level we were at the third quarter. Obviously, we saw an improvement in the first half of the year. But these numbers are so small that one or two loans can move these percentages here a little bit.

貸款額增加了約 5,000 萬美元，接近 250 億美元。如果以一級資本的百分比來衡量受批評的水平，我的意思是，它確實略有上升，但幅度太小，不足以產生影響。我的意思是，一筆貸款就能讓這個數字稍微改變一下。所以，如果你想想，我們在第三季末的成長率是 11.3%，而去年第四季末的成長率是 12%，這和我們第三季的成長率差不多。顯然，我們在上半年看到了進步。但這些數字太小了，一兩筆貸款就可能使這些百分比稍微變動。

And I guess this is a good segue for me to remind everybody, this is not normal. These are abnormally strong credit numbers. And we include kind of that fourth quarter '18, fourth quarter '19, that is the mean, if you will. That is a normal -- those look good for us. We were happy with those levels.

我想藉此機會提醒大家，這種情況並不正常。這些信用數據異常強勁。我們也把 2018 年第四季和 2019 年第四季的數據也算進去了，這就是平均值。這是正常的——這些對我們來說看起來不錯。我們對當時的水平感到滿意。

And so there will be a time where both charge-offs and criticized levels and nonperforming levels kind of revert to the mean. And that doesn't mean credit's deteriorated. It just means that there's been kind of a reversion back to kind of a more normal period of time. These are abnormally good credit periods. And we're kind of looking under every rock trying to find where we think the next risk element can come from.

因此，總有一天，沖銷額、受批評程度和不良貸款水準都會回歸平均值。但這並不意味著信用狀況惡化了。這只是意味著一切都回歸了某種更正常的時期。這是異常良好的信貸時期。我們正在竭盡全力尋找下一個風險因素可能來自哪裡。

And we're not seeing it in a line of business. We're not seeing it in geography. And everybody is kind of jumping on the next credit thing. But there will be a reversion to the mean, but we're not seeing any deterioration, really meaningful deterioration at all in asset quality today.

但我們並沒有在某個行業看到這種情況。我們在地理學中並沒有看到這種現象。大家都在爭先恐後地爭取下一個信貸機會。但最終會回歸均值，不過目前我們並沒有看到資產品質出現任何惡化，或者說，根本沒有出現任何實質的惡化。

Yes. And that was going to go into my next question. I mean if I just look at the past -- on average over the past three years, you're averaging a net charge-off rate of about 6 basis points, which is just pretty remarkable considering you're a commercially focused business. Do you think, just based on where you see the macro economy today, do you think we get a more normalized environment in the year ahead? Or is it really just too unpredictable to tell?

是的。而這正是我要問的下一個問題。我的意思是，如果我回顧過去——過去三年的平均淨沖銷率約為 6 個基點，考慮到你們是一家以商業為中心的企業，這真是相當了不起。根據您目前對宏觀經濟的觀察，您認為未來一年經濟環境會更加正常化嗎？或者說，情況真的太難預測了？

It's really hard to say. I mean, we included in the appendix, I think it's slide 18, and I always kind of refer people that we get caught up in the one year to one year, and you don't really pick up a credit cycle when you do that. We've included in our, essentially a 20-year loss history that picks up the worst of the great financial crisis embedded in that history. And we've got basically a 26-basis-point average charge-off over that period of time, which includes some pretty significant losses in the -- if you think about coming out of it through the great financial crisis. And so I think as we think about through the cycle, we kind of think 20 to 25 basis points as average losses for us. Maybe we do a little bit better. We think our asset quality has differentiated itself in a very positive way.

這很難說。我的意思是，我們在附錄中提到過，我想是第 18 頁投影片，我總是會提醒人們，我們常常陷入一年到一年的循環中，而這樣做並不能真正建立一個信用週期。我們的數據包含了長達 20 年的虧損歷史，涵蓋了這段歷史中最糟糕的金融危機時期。在此期間，我們的平均沖銷額基本上為 26 個基點，其中包括一些相當大的損失——如果你想想走出金融危機的話。因此，我認為當我們考慮整個週期時，我們認為平均損失在 20 到 25 個基點之間。或許我們可以做得更好。我們認為我們的資產品質已經以非常積極的方式脫穎而出。

But as you try to look out in the near term, it's hard to see that we revert back to that mean quickly. Just based on what we see today, there's as much positive going on as there is negative. And so I don't foresee that certainly. But there's so many factors that can predicate that. It's typically something that we didn't expect or that kind of an exogenous shock that creates the stress. And so it's very difficult with real certainty to predict.

但從短期來看，很難看出我們很快就會回到那個均勢狀態。僅從我們今天所看到的來看，正面和負面方面一樣多。因此，我並不認為這種情況會發生。但有很多因素可以預測這種情況。通常情況下，壓力是由我們意想不到的事情或外部衝擊造成的。因此，要真正準確地預測是非常困難的。

And so as we model -- as we think about our business through a cycle, we really focus on that long-term loss rate, which we think is somewhere around 20 to 25 basis points. But we're nowhere near that today and don't certainly foresee that in the near term.

因此，當我們進行建模——當我們思考我們業務的周期時，我們真正關注的是長期損失率，我們認為它在 20 到 25 個基點左右。但我們目前離那一天還很遠，短期內肯定看不到那一天。

Timur Braziler, Wells Fargo.

蒂穆爾·布拉齊勒，富國銀行。

A couple more on the warehouse finance business. I guess what are the typical line sizes look like today? And how does that progression grow potentially as you build out that business?

再補充幾條關於倉儲金融業務的資訊。我想問一下，現在典型的管線尺寸是什麼樣的呢？隨著業務的拓展，這種發展趨勢又將如何演變？

I mean loan sizes are going to be -- loan commitments here are going to be larger than maybe a typical C&I loan commit would be. So let's call it, $75 million to $100 million, plus or minus. And some are going to be smaller, some are going to be bigger. But generally speaking, they're going to be a little bit larger there, mostly because of the quality of the credit is, in some cases, correlated to the size of the facility. And so we want to be sensitive about adverse selection. But it is less granular than a typical C&I portfolio for sure, but the asset quality is much, much better over a long period of time.

我的意思是，這裡的貸款規模將會——貸款承諾將會比典型的工商貸款承諾更大。所以我們姑且稱之為 7500 萬美元到 1 億美元，上下浮動。有些會比較小，有些會比較大。但總的來說，那裡的貸款規模會稍微大一些，主要是因為在某些情況下，信貸品質與貸款規模有關。因此，我們需要對逆向選擇保持敏感。但它肯定不如典型的工商業投資組合那麼細緻，但從長遠來看，其資產品質要好得多。

Okay. And then, Marty, I talked to you three months ago and your comments were a bit prophetic. You had mentioned essentially the risk of double pledging some of this collateral. You had also said that the mortgage registration system that are in places today, kind of eliminate some of these risks. I guess the events of these last couple of weeks, does that potentially make you reconsider how you think about that statement? Or as close as you've been with the ramp, does that give you even greater conviction around the process?

好的。還有，馬蒂，三個月前我跟你談過，你當時說的話有點預言成真了。你之前提到過，部分抵押品有重複質押的風險。您之前也說過，目前實施的抵押貸款登記制度在某種程度上消除了這些風險。我想，過去幾週發生的事情，是否會讓你重新考慮你對那句話的看法？或者說，你離坡道這麼近，是不是讓你對整個過程更有信心了？

Yes. No, that's a great question because there's a distinction between the situations that are in the news, those are not residential mortgage warehouse lines where those loans are all registered at MERS. I mean that's the beauty of the component of mortgage warehouse that we're doing. So all of that collateral, not only do we have a very strong team, it's a very experienced, but we've got the leading platform to operate that business. And that gives us the ability to ensure that all the individual loans, we have clear title to all the loans that are securing our warehouse line through MERS.

是的。不，這是一個很好的問題，因為新聞報告的情況與住宅抵押貸款倉庫貸款有所不同，這些貸款並非全部在MERS註冊。我的意思是，這就是我們正在做的抵押貸款倉儲業務的優勢所在。因此，憑藉所有這些優勢，我們不僅擁有一支非常強大的團隊，而且經驗非常豐富，我們還擁有經營該業務的領先平台。這樣一來，我們就能確保所有個人貸款，我們對所有透過 MERS 為我們的倉儲信貸額度提供擔保的貸款都擁有清晰的所有權。

And so there are other flavors of warehouse finance that aren't like that. But what we're doing is 100% what I just described, where our ability to have clear line of sight on title so that we know we've got those loans with collateral. Not only that, we've got the ability to deal with them if we ever needed to, just given the talent we've got on board. So we are as convicted as ever that the way we're going into this business and the portion of this business that we're doing is the right one that meets our risk appetite.

因此，還有其他類型的倉儲融資與此不同。但我們現在所做的，完全就是我剛才描述的那樣，即我們能夠清楚地了解產權情況，從而確保我們擁有有抵押的貸款。不僅如此，憑藉我們擁有的人才，我們完全有能力在必要時應對他們。因此，我們仍然堅信，我們進入這個行業的方式以及我們正在從事的這部分業務是正確的，符合我們的風險承受能力。

Great. That's good color. And then just last for me, just a clarifying question. The comment on trading assets being more or less in line with 3Q, is that on an average basis or a period end?

偉大的。顏色真好看。最後，我還有一個問題需要澄清。關於交易資產與第三季基本一致的評論，是指平均值還是期末水準？

Yes, average. Always -- yes, we always talk about average there. You can almost ignore the period end on trading because just one day isn't representative. So as you're thinking about that business, it's always the most sensible thing to look at the averages.

是的，一般。總是——是的，我們總是談論平均值。交易週期結束幾乎可以忽略不計，因為一天的交易結果並不具代表性。所以，在考慮這項業務時，最明智的做法始終是查看平均值。

Jared Shaw, Barclays.

Jared Shaw，巴克萊銀行。

So just, I guess, going back to the overall loan growth, if we look at the high end of that range, it feels like that's just driven by the optionality or the potential of mortgage warehouse. Is that right? And I guess what are your assumptions for energy payoff activity or pay down activity, is that going to slow going into the end of the year? Or could we still see pressure on those balances?

所以，我想，回到整體貸款成長的問題上，如果我們看一下這個範圍的高端，感覺這完全是由抵押貸款倉庫的選擇權或潛力所驅動的。是這樣嗎？那麼，您對能源投資回報活動或投資回收活動的預期是什麼？到年底，這些活動會放緩嗎？或者我們仍然會看到這些平衡面臨壓力？

Yes. I think we're growing -- the last two quarters, we've grown loans at 10% without really any meaningful contribution from mortgage finance. And so I think that there's -- and that's with some headwind in the energy space. So I feel very confident about where we are from a loan growth perspective. We've got a good momentum.

是的。我認為我們正在成長——過去兩個季度，我們的貸款成長了 10%，而抵押貸款融資並沒有做出任何實質的貢獻。所以我認為——儘管能源領域面臨一些不利因素。因此，從貸款成長的角度來看，我對我們目前的狀況非常有信心。我們現在勢頭良好。

We look at the sales pipeline, obviously, going into -- we look at it more frequently, but particularly coming into the call to be able to feel good about talking about that here, sales pipelines are very strong right now. And so we feel good about where we're positioned from that perspective.

顯然，我們會專注於銷售管道，我們會更頻繁地關注它，尤其是在這次電話會議上，這樣我們才能安心地談論它，因為目前的銷售管道非常強勁。因此，從這個角度來看，我們對自身的定位感到滿意。

As we think about the future, I mean energy lending, the -- the commodity prices are low, there's consolidation happening in the space. I do think plus or minus a little bit, we've kind of hit the bottom in terms of the risk of material payoff activity, but I don't think it's going to grow at 10% either. And so I think from our perspective, having stable balances there is a positive. We do expect it to grow a little bit, but we're close to bouncing off the bottom here a little bit on the energy balances, which is helpful. Obviously, we like that space. We feel very good about the asset quality there. But the growth has been more challenged in the last 12 to 18 months as there's been lower commodity prices and a more merger and acquisition activity in that space.

當我們展望未來時，我指的是能源貸款，目前大宗商品價格低迷，而該領域正在整合。我認為，就實質收益活動的風險而言，我們已經觸底了，但我也不認為它會以 10% 的速度成長。所以我認為，從我們的角度來看，保持穩定的收支平衡是件好事。我們預計它會略有增長，但就能量平衡而言，我們即將從底部反彈，這很有幫助。顯然，我們喜歡那個空間。我們對那裡的資產品質非常有信心。但在過去 12 到 18 個月裡，由於大宗商品價格走低以及該領域的併購活動增多，成長面臨更多挑戰。

Okay. All right. And then if we do see the stronger growth in the mortgage side, is that going to be enough to impact sort of the expected growth in loan yields here? I mean, I'm guessing that's tighter spreads on that lending, right?

好的。好的。那麼，如果我們看到抵押貸款方面出現更強勁的成長，這是否足以影響貸款收益率的預期成長？我的意思是，我猜這方面的貸款利差會更小，對吧？

It is tighter spreads. It's really going to depend on what the mix is at that particular point in time. It's a hard question to answer until we get a little further along. Just overall, yes, the spreads on mortgage warehouse are tighter than they are on, let's say, a typical C&I deal. The flip side of that, we still got lots of room to grow in commercial real estate. Those spreads tend to be wider than a typical C&I deal. And so it really just depends on the mix at that particular point in time.

攤舖更窄。這真的要取決於當時的具體情況。這個問題很難回答，得等我們進一步了解情況才能知道答案。總的來說，是的，抵押貸款倉儲的利差比典型的工商業貸款交易的利差要小。另一方面，我們在商業房地產領域仍然有很大的發展空間。這些價差往往比一般的工商企業交易價差還要大。所以，這真的取決於當時的具體情況。

Yes. And Jared, one thing to think about is that business also brings deposits. And so when you think about the combination of the loan, deposits, the treasury management, revenue and incremental trading revenue, broadly speaking, that's bringing a pretty standard margin to the bottom line for us. So I think overall, it's not going to be dilutive to overall returns, if that's sort of the way you're thinking about it.

是的。賈里德，你需要考慮的一點是，業務發展也會帶來存款。因此，從整體來看，貸款、存款、資金管理、收入和增量交易收入加在一起，就能為我們的最終利潤帶來相當標準的利潤率。所以我覺得總體而言，如果你是從這個角度考慮的話，它不會稀釋整體回報。

Okay. All right. And then how should we think about maybe your internal thoughts around loan-to-deposit ratios and funding this growth? I assume that -- should we assume that you're comfortable with that ratio, which is pretty low, starting to grow back to where we maybe saw in prior years?

好的。好的。那麼，我們應該如何看待您關於貸款存款比率以及如何為這種增長提供資金的內部想法？我假設——我們是否可以假設您對這個相當低的比例感到滿意，並且它正在開始回升到我們前幾年可能看到的水平？

Yes. We have, as you know, and as you just said, very strong loan-to-deposit ratio, that can drift up and that's fine. That's not our central -- our central case is that we'll continue to grow loans, we'll continue to grow deposits. Maybe loans are a little higher than the deposits and that could drift up and that would be fine. But we've got a lot of balance sheet flexibility and that will put us in a very good position for the next couple of years.

是的。如你所知，也正如您剛才所說，我們的貸款存款比率非常高，這個比率可能會上升，但這沒關係。這不是我們的核心目標——我們的核心目標是繼續增加貸款，並繼續增加存款。貸款額可能略高於存款額，這種情況可能會有所改善，但這也沒關係。但我們擁有很大的資產負債表彈性，這將使我們在未來幾年處於非常有利的地位。

Matt Olney, Stephens.

馬特·奧爾尼，史蒂芬斯。

I guess sticking with Jared's first question on the loan yields. Are there any material loan floors that would become effective as the Fed continues to cut rates?

我想還是堅持回答 Jared 關於貸款收益率的第一個問題吧。隨著聯準會持續降息，是否存在任何實質的貸款底線會生效？

Yes, not -- not really. I mean -- and certainly, in these -- we still have pretty high rates here in the grand scheme of things. So yes, floors are not going to be a factor in the foreseeable future.

是的，並非如此——真的不是。我的意思是——當然，在這些方面——從整體來看，我們的感染率仍然相當高。所以，是的，在可預見的未來，地板不會成為一個需要考慮的因素。

Okay. Thanks for that, Marty. And then I guess going back to the credit discussion, you gave us some great details, and I'm looking at the allowance ratio, call it, 132%, which I think is the low end of what we've seen since the CECL adoption over the last few years ago. It feels like it's going to be really tough to keep that flat, and we could see that start to -- or continue to drift lower. Am I interpreting the commentary there right on the allowance ratio?

好的。謝謝你，馬蒂。然後，我想回到信用方面的討論，您給了我們一些很好的細節，我注意到撥備比率，比如說 132%，我認為這是自過去幾年採用 CECL 以來我們所看到的最低水平。感覺要保持匯率平穩真的很難，我們可能會看到匯率開始——或者繼續走低。我對那裡關於津貼比例的評論理解正確嗎？

That's really predicated on asset quality at the point in time and loan growth and lots of other factors there. We obviously don't foresee lost content being material that's going to help, but if you look at the reserve relative to criticized levels or relative to nonperforming levels or relative to charge-offs, obviously, it's very healthy. And we've got something that we'll continue to look at there.

這實際上取決於當時的資產品質、貸款成長以及許多其他因素。我們顯然不認為丟失的內容會有所幫助，但如果你看看相對於受批評的水平、相對於不良水平或相對於沖銷的準備金，顯然，它非常健康。我們還有一些事情需要繼續關注。

Timur Braziler, Wells Fargo.

蒂穆爾·布拉齊勒，富國銀行。

Just one more for me. You had called out a couple of times that you're looking to align talent base with future growth initiatives. Can you just maybe put some context around that statement and maybe how far in the process we are there?

再給我來一個。你曾多次提到，你希望讓人才基礎與未來的成長計畫保持一致。您能否解釋一下這句話的背景，以及我們目前進展到什麼程度？

Yes. So we're constantly -- I mean, we are -- part of our corporate DNA is we're always looking to see where are the growth opportunities, where the highest returns on our capital and where are areas that are mature. And so we've been very focused as we have these expansion areas like San Antonio, like mortgage warehouse where we're making big investments. We have big technology investments in wealth and in the corporate bank.

是的。所以我們一直在——我的意思是，我們一直在——這已經融入了我們的企業基因，那就是我們一直在尋找成長機會、資本回報率最高的地方以及已經成熟的領域。因此，我們一直非常專注於像聖安東尼奧這樣的擴張地區，例如抵押貸款倉庫，我們在那裡進行了大量投資。我們在財富管理和企業銀行領域進行了大量技術投資。

Obviously, as we think about that, we also think about where are some areas that are mature that we need to be more efficient in and focus on that. And so as we've worked through that over the course of the year, we've taken actions in both the third quarter and in the fourth quarter that will result in transitional payments that are nonrecurring that will impact personnel expenses principally, but create benefit in future periods as we rightsize the workforce with the areas that we think provide the most opportunity for us to grow.

顯然，在思考這個問題時，我們也會思考哪些領域已經成熟，我們需要提高效率並專注於這些領域。因此，在過去一年中，我們一直在努力解決這個問題，並在第三季度和第四季度採取了行動，這些行動將產生過渡性付款，這些付款是一次性的，主要影響人事支出，但隨著我們根據我們認為最有發展機會的領域調整員工規模，將在未來時期帶來好處。

This concludes today's Q&A session. I would now like to turn the call back over to Stacy Kymes for closing remarks.

今天的問答環節到此結束。現在我謹將電話交還給史泰西·凱姆斯，請她作總結發言。

Thank you. This was another strong quarter marked by solid performance across our core businesses. The additional momentum we built this quarter reflects the strength and resilience of our team. We're entering the final quarter of 2025 with a clear focus on sustaining the positive trajectory. We appreciate your interest in BOK Financial and your willingness to spend time with us this afternoon. Please reach out to Heather King if you have any questions at h.king@bokf.com.

謝謝。本季業績表現強勁，核心業務均表現穩健。本季我們取得的額外發展動能反映了我們團隊的實力和韌性。我們即將進入 2025 年的最後一個季度，並將重點放在保持積極發展勢頭上。我們感謝您對BOK Financial的關注，也感謝您今天下午抽出時間與我們交流。如有任何疑問，請聯絡 Heather King，電子郵件地址為 h.king@bokf.com。

This concludes today's conference call. You may disconnect.

今天的電話會議到此結束。您可以斷開連線。