Abivax SA (ABVX) 2023 Q4 法說會逐字稿

Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for standing by, and welcome to Abivax conference call to discuss 2023 financial results and business update. My name is Sandra and I will be your operator for today's call. (Operator Instructions)

女士們、先生們，感謝你們的支持，歡迎參加 Abivax 電話會議，討論 2023 年財務表現和業務更新。我叫桑德拉，我將擔任您今天通話的接線生。（操作員說明）

As a reminder, this call is being recorded at Abivax's request. Now I would like to introduce your host for today's call, Patrick Malloy, Senior Vice President, Investor Relations. Pat, please go ahead.

謹此提醒，本次通話是應 Abivax 的要求進行錄音的。現在我想介紹今天電話會議的主持人帕特里克·馬洛伊 (Patrick Malloy)，他是投資者關係高級副總裁。帕特，請繼續。

Good morning and good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to today's call during which we'll provide an update on our financial results for the full year ended December 31, 2023. As well as key program updates across business.

大家早安，下午好。歡迎參加今天的電話會議，我們將在會上提供截至 2023 年 12 月 31 日的全年財務業績的最新資訊。以及整個業務的關鍵計劃更新。

On April 2, we issued a press release summarizing our financial results. And April 5, we filed our 20-F and universal registration document, all of which can be found on the Abivax website.

4 月 2 日，我們發布了一份新聞稿，總結了我們的財務表現。4 月 5 日，我們提交了 20-F 和通用註冊文件，所有這些文件都可以在 Abivax 網站上找到。

Before we get started, I'd like to remind everyone that during today's discussion, we'll make statements about our future expectations, plans and prospects that constitute forward-looking statements for the purposes of the Safe Harbor provisions under the Private Security and Litigation Reform Act of 1995.

在我們開始之前，我想提醒大家，在今天的討論中，我們將就我們未來的期望、計劃和前景發表聲明，這些聲明構成《私人保安和訴訟》中安全港條款的前瞻性聲明。改革法案。

Actual results may differ materially from those indicated by these forward-looking statements as a result of important factors, including those risk factors discussed in our SEC filings, and we are not under any obligation to update these forward-looking statements and just a few moments.

由於重要因素（包括我們在 SEC 文件中討論的風險因素），實際結果可能與這些前瞻性陳述所顯示的結果有重大差異，我們沒有任何義務更新這些前瞻性陳述，只需幾分鐘。

I'll be handing the call over to our CEO, Marc de Garidel, who provide the financial results and business update.

我將把電話轉交給我們的執行長 Marc de Garidel，他將提供財務績效和業務更新。

Following the prepared remarks, we'll move to a question-and-answer session. We'll be joined by members of the management team, including our CFO Didier Blondel; our Chief Medical Officer Sheldon Sloan; Chief Scientific Officer Didier Scherrer; and Chief Commercial Officer Michael Ferguson. Now I'd like to hand the call over to Marc de Garidel. Mac, please go ahead.

在準備好的發言之後，我們將進入問答環節。管理團隊成員將加入我們，包括我們的財務長 Didier Blondel；我們的首席醫療官謝爾頓·斯隆；首席科學官 Didier Scherrer；和首席商務官邁克爾·弗格森。現在我想把電話轉給馬克·德·加里德爾。麥克，請繼續。

Thanks, Pat. Good morning and good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. And thank you for joining the first Abivax earnings webcast. But we are holding as a dual listed company on Nasdaq and ABVX. Last year, was very exciting for Abivax, one that has set us up to accomplish important milestones that are crucial for the future as we continue to develop over 30 miles to be a potential preferred or option for inflammatory bowel disease patients.

謝謝，帕特。早安，下午好，女士們先生們。感謝您參加首屆 Abivax 收益網路廣播。但我們是在納斯達克和 ABVX 雙重上市的公司。去年對Abivax 來說是非常令人興奮的一年，它讓我們實現了對未來至關重要的重要里程碑，因為我們將繼續開發超過30 英里的產品，成為發炎性腸道疾病患者的潛在首選或選擇。

First of all, let's focus on the financial aspects. In 2023, Abivax raised over EUR500 million. This consisted of first, a EUR130 million cost of our financing in February, followed in August by two structured debt financing transactions, allowing Abivax to draw up to EUR150 million.

首先，讓我們專注於財務方面。2023 年，Abivax 籌集了超過 5 億歐元。其中首先包括 2 月 1.3 億歐元的融資成本，隨後是 8 月的兩項結構性債務融資交易，使 Abivax 能夠提取高達 1.5 億歐元的資金。

And finally, our initial public offering on the Nasdaq global market in October of last year, which raised EUR223.3 million. Abivax, Nasdaq IPO was the largest ever completed by a French-listed biotech company. This record capital raise.

最後，我們在去年 10 月在納斯達克全球市場進行了首次公開募股，籌集了 2.233 億歐元。Abivax 在納斯達克的 IPO 是法國上市生技公司有史以來規模最大的 IPO。此次融資創紀錄。

We support our overall financial and development strategy for our lead drug candidate will be filing mode for the treatment of inflammatory bowel disease with a cash position of EUR261 million as of December of '23.

我們支持我們的主要候選藥物的整體財務和開發策略，該策略將採用治療發炎性腸道疾病的備案模式，截至 23 年 12 月現金狀況為 2.61 億歐元。

We have sufficient funds to finance our operation into Q4 of '25 based on current business plan. This means that we are finally beyond the announcement of our major milestone for next year, top-line data from the Phase 3 ABTECT induction trials of obefazimod in ulcerative colitis expected in Q1 2025.

根據目前的業務計劃，我們有足夠的資金為 25 年第四季的營運提供資金。這意味著我們終於宣布了明年的重要里程碑，預計將於 2025 年第一季公佈奧貝齊莫德治療潰瘍性結腸炎 3 期 ABTECT 誘導試驗的頂線數據。

Let's move now to our clinical and preclinical development progress. Over the course of last year, we implemented a strategy that will allow us to seize the potential of this has the most unique and differentiated profile for the treatment of IBD.

現在讓我們來看看我們的臨床和臨床前開發進展。去年，我們實施了一項策略，使我們能夠抓住這種最獨特、最差異化的 IBD 治療潛力。

The execution of this approach is underway and well advanced Phase 3 ABTECT program investigating the efficacy and safety of this ABTECT in adults with moderately to severely active ulcerative colitis is progressing according to plan for recruitment into both induction trials is currently ongoing in all designated areas around the world and of the Phase 2b, which was only conducted in Europe.

該方法的執行正在進行中，並且正在按照計劃進行3 期ABTECT 計劃，該計劃調查該ABTECT 對患有中度至重度活動性潰瘍性結腸炎的成年人的有效性和安全性，目前正在所有指定地區進行兩項誘導試驗的招募。

Further, we plan to initiate patient recruitment in our Phase 2b trials for the treatment of Crohn's disease in Q3 of this year, with top-line data expected during the second half of 2026, as already announced in September of '23, the preclinical efforts intended to identify different options to strengthen our pipeline are also progressing along the option being evaluated as a potential combination therapy of all an injectable candidate obefazimod initiated colitis experiments in pre-clinical models are ongoing and the data to support our decision are expected in the second half of this year.

此外，我們計劃在今年第三季度啟動治療克羅恩病的 2b 期試驗的患者招募，預計在 2026 年下半年獲得頂線數據，正如 2023 年 9 月宣布的那樣，臨床前工作旨在確定不同的選擇來加強我們的管道也在進展中，該選擇被評估為所有可注射候選奧貝齊莫德的潛在聯合療法，在臨床前模型中啟動的結腸炎實驗正在進行中，支持我們決定的數據預計將在第二年獲得今年一半。

Research and development work to identify potential follow-on drug candidates from Abivax compound library is also advancing. We expect the selection of the first follow-on drug candidate later this year in Q3 to evaluate its usefulness for IBD or potential other inflammatory conditions to enable us to successfully execute on all R&D and clinical development programs and plans.

從 Abivax 化合物庫中識別潛在後續候選藥物的研究和開發工作也在取得進展。我們預計將在今年第三季稍後選擇第一個後續候選藥物，以評估其對 IBD 或潛在其他發炎性疾病的有效性，使我們能夠成功執行所有研發和臨床開發項目和計劃。

Abivax made significant efforts in the past months to build the necessary operational infrastructure in the US as well as in Europe. We know have a very seasoned global team in place that we believe are the required markets specific competencies and expertise to conduct the ongoing programs and prepare for the respective market authorization applications, starting with a wait-and-see mode for the treatment of ulcerative colitis.

Abivax 在過去幾個月中做出了巨大努力，在美國和歐洲建立了必要的營運基礎設施。我們知道擁有一支經驗豐富的全球團隊，我們相信他們具備開展持續計畫所需的特定市場能力和專業知識，並為相應的市場授權申請做好準備，從治療潰瘍性結腸炎的觀望模式開始。

In addition, not only did we ran for the operational team, but we also made notable changes within our Board of Directors in the past year June Lee and Troy Ignelzi joined in July '23. I'm glad that we can also now welcome Camilla Soenderby, as a new member of the Board. We believe Camilla has expertise in driving portfolio strategy and commercialization will be very valuable for us.

此外，我們不僅競選營運團隊，而且在過去的一年裡，我們還在董事會內部做出了顯著的變化，June Lee 和 Troy Ignelzi 於 23 年 7 月加入。我很高興我們現在也歡迎 Camilla Soenderby 成為董事會新成員。我們相信卡米拉在推動投資組合策略和商業化方面擁有專業知識，這對我們來說非常有價值。

We continue to bring the best expertise on the Board to strengthen our path forward with a focus on the US market because I think a significant opportunity in inflammatory bowel disease. In the past year, in addition to attracting new renowned colleagues and board members, we also experienced increasing interest among the scientific community and the industry.

我們將繼續為董事會帶來最好的專業知識，以加強我們的前進道路，並專注於美國市場，因為我認為這是發炎性腸道疾病領域的重大機會。在過去的一年裡，除了吸引新的知名同事和董事會成員外，科學界和業界對我們的興趣也日益濃厚。

Abivax scientific excellence has been highlighted by several abstracts presented by leading US and European KOLs at the major scientific IBD congresses in 2023and for the first quarter of 2024 will continue to scientifically underpin obesity, most potential as a safe and effective long-term treatment option in IBD and its novel mechanism of action at upcoming conferences and through publication relevant scientific [congresses].

美國和歐洲領先的KOL 在2023 年和2024 年第一季的主要IBD 科學大會上提出的幾份摘要強調了Abivax 的科學卓越性，將繼續在科學上支持肥胖，最有潛力成為肥胖症的安全有效的長期治療選擇IBD 及其新穎的作用機制將在即將舉行的會議上以及透過出版相關科學[代表大會]。

Abivax can look back at a very successful 2023 by also looking forward to achieving implementation of our financial clinical scientific and operational strategies in the course of this year, we believe 2024 will lead us to a major major milestones with data readouts of our UC program in early '25, initiation of this trial in Q3 '24 and the decisions and how to strengthen our pipeline in the future with new preclinical results.

Abivax 可以回顧 2023 年非常成功的一年，也期待在今年實現我們的財務臨床科學和營運策略的實施，我們相信 2024 年將引領我們實現一個重要的里程碑，我們的 UC 專案的數據讀出25 年初，在24 年第三季啟動這項試驗，並做出決定以及如何在未來透過新的臨床前結果加強我們的產品線。

That concludes our prepared remarks. Now we will move to the Q&A session. Operator, please.

我們準備好的演講到此結束。現在我們進入問答環節。接線員，請說。

Thank you. (Operator Instructions)

謝謝。（操作員說明）

Thomas Smith, Leerink Partners. Please go ahead.

托馬斯史密斯，Leerink 合夥人。請繼續。

Hey, guys, good morning. Thanks for taking the questions and congrats on the progress. Just some on the ongoing Phase 3 ABTECT program, in how if you could elaborate a little bit on how enrollment is progressing there? Are you seeing any region-specific enrollment trends that are worth calling out? And can you comment at all on how patient retention has been in the study so far?

嘿，夥計們，早安。感謝您提出問題並祝賀取得的進展。只是一些關於正在進行的第 3 階段 ABTECT 計劃的信息，您能否詳細說明一下那裡的註冊進展？您是否發現任何值得關注的特定地區的入學趨勢？您能否評論一下迄今為止該研究中患者保留的情況？

Hey, thanks, Thom. Sheldon, do you want to or do you want to take that one?

嘿，謝謝，湯姆。謝爾頓，你想要還是想要那個？

Yes, I will. Okay. Hi, Thom, thank you for your question. I think Marc laid it out where we are with the study. Let me just give you a little bit of a highlights with our regional expectations. I think you already talked about no more than 25% of the subjects enrolled in the study will be from any specific region, which Marc already pointed out in contrast to Phase 2b, two-thirds are from Eastern Europe.

是的，我會。好的。嗨，湯姆，謝謝你的問題。我認為馬克已經闡明了我們的研究進展。讓我簡單介紹一下我們的區域期望。我想你已經說過，參與研究的受試者中不超過 25% 來自任何特定地區，Marc 已經指出，與 2b 階段相比，三分之二來自東歐。

And the good news is we are now actually deployed in all our targeted geographic regions were already enrolling in China and Brazil and obviously we've been in Japan for a while. North America obviously has been up and running the longest. And even though we had what I would say at the beginning a little bit of a delay with the seed is primarily European countries were all fully engaged in those countries now

好消息是，我們現在實際上已經在所有目標地理區域進行了部署，我們已經在中國和巴西註冊，顯然我們已經在日本有一段時間了。顯然，北美地區的啟動和運行時間最長。儘管我們一開始就說過，種子有點延遲，但主要是歐洲國家現在都充分參與了這些國家的活動

And I think the second thing, which you're talking about retention, I think you're talking about the dropout rate, although that's right now it's blinded so we really don't know, but that's something we're actively looking at discontinuations.

我認為第二件事，你在談論保留率，我認為你在談論輟學率，儘管現在它是盲目的，所以我們真的不知道，但這是我們正在積極考慮中止的事情。

As you know, we had a little over 12%, I believe, in the Phase 2b study, and we're really tracking that carefully. One of the things that drove discontinuations was headaches in the Phase 2b study. And we we know that the headaches is more but is more about managing expectations at this point, making sure that the investigators and patients know that it's something that occurs early on in the start of therapy.

如您所知，我相信我們在 2b 期研究中的比例略高於 12%，而且我們正在認真追蹤這一情況。停藥的原因之一是 2b 期研究的頭痛問題。我們知道，頭痛更多的是，但更多的是在這一點上管理期望，確保研究人員和患者知道這是在治療開始的早期發生的事情。

It generally almost always treated with over-the-counter either acetaminophen or non-steroidal and does not last for more than a few days to a week. And the bottom line is once the patients are on the medication, the headaches actually do not return back. That was apparent in our 2nd year of our open-label extension where headaches were not an adverse event.

通常幾乎總是用非處方藥對乙醯氨基酚或非類固醇治療，並且持續時間不會超過幾天到一周。最重要的是，一旦患者接受藥物治療，頭痛實際上就不會再復發。這在我們開放標籤擴展的第二年就很明顯，頭痛不是不良事件。

Just to summarize, just kind of wrap that up, how we're managing that by actually instructing the sites of headaches. Again, there are reasons why patients need to discontinue, but generally should not be a reason to discontinue the study. So we're actually aggressively and actively proactively actually managing that discontinuation of that. Thank you.

總結一下，總結一下，我們如何透過實際指導頭痛部位來管理這一點。同樣，患者需要終止研究是有原因的，但通常不應成為終止研究的理由。因此，我們實際上正在積極主動地管理這種中斷。謝謝。

Got it. That's helpful. And then on with respect to the long-term extension trial readout with asthma, and you see that you're expecting in Q3, you just talk about your own expectations and what are you hoping to learn from this data set?

知道了。這很有幫助。然後，關於氣喘的長期擴展試驗讀數，您看到您在第三季度的預期，您只是談論您自己的期望以及您希望從該資料集中學到什麼？

So I think that's as you know, and we announced that we actually presented the first cut yet this past the echo and we are planning actually a similar data cut to then we'll have patients on for more than that, actually from the from the 2a study, probably six years exposure and up to four years' exposure from the 2b study, what we found in the 1st year for those patients who are well controlled patients, this is an enriched population.

所以我認為正如你所知，我們宣布我們實際上已經提出了第一次切割，但已經過去了迴聲，我們實際上正在計劃進行類似的數據切割，然後我們將讓患者接受更多的治療，實際上是從2a 研究，可能有六年的暴露時間，2b 研究的暴露時間長達四年，我們在第一年發現，對於那些控制良好的患者，這是一個豐富的人群。

So they need to add have endoscopic improvement, meaning an endoscopic sub-score, [Mayo] endoscopic sub-score of 0 or 1, they needed to have a 0 or 1 at that point where many of them over 70% started with three at the start of the study.

因此，他們需要添加內視鏡改進，這意味著內視鏡分項得分，[梅奧]內視鏡分項得分為0 或1，他們需要在這一點上有0 或1，其中許多人超過70% 的人從3 開始研究的開始。

So it's a very impressive improvement. And we saw the durability over that one year starting the entry into the 25 milligram open-label extension, 100% were obviously an endoscopic improvement and there was very few that dropped to without endoscopic proven 95% were sewn endoscopic improvement.

所以這是一個非常令人印象深刻的改進。我們看到了從進入 25 毫克開放標籤擴展開始的一年內的耐久性，100% 顯然是內視鏡改進，很少有下降到未經內視鏡證明的 95% 是縫製內視鏡改進。

So what we hope to show time is continued durability, even with 25 milligrams in a in a well controlled population. We're testing obviously the one-year durability for the first time in our Phase 3 program, but this will give us some long-term data and that durability in patients well controlled.

因此，我們希望向時間展示的是持續的耐久性，即使在控制良好的人群中服用 25 毫克。顯然，我們在第三階段計畫中首次測試了一年的耐久性，但這將為我們提供一些長期數據，並且患者的耐久性得到很好的控制。

Yes, that's super helpful. Thanks for taking the questions, guys.

是的，這非常有幫助。謝謝你們提出問題，夥伴們。

Thanks, Thom.

謝謝，湯姆。

Operator, let's move to the next one question in queue.

接線員，讓我們轉到隊列中的下一個問題。

Thank you.

謝謝。

Vikram Purohit, Morgan Stanley. Please go ahead.

維克拉姆‧普羅希特，摩根士丹利。請繼續。

Hi, everyone, good morning. Thanks for taking our questions. So we had to first on the ABTECT readout that you're guiding to for 1Q '25. I know it's a little bit early, but would you have any initial sense on which parameters of data and how extensive of a readout you might expect the induction readout in 1Q to be and kind of as you progress through the study and as you presumably get more KOL feedback? And on the program over time, how are you seeing the hurdle for a win on efficacy evolve there?

嗨，大家早安。感謝您回答我們的問題。因此，我們必須先了解您為 25 年第一季制定的 ABTECT 讀數。我知道現在有點早，但是隨著您在研究中的進展以及您可能得到的結果，您是否對第一季度的感應讀數可能會出現的數據參數以及讀數的範圍有任何初步了解？ ？隨著時間的推移，您如何看待該計劃中取得成效的障礙如何演變？

And then secondly, on follow-on compounds, I would just love to get a bit of color on how you're prioritizing and thinking about choosing the best follow-on compounds to have to add to the pipeline. Thank you.

其次，關於後續化合物，我只是想了解您如何確定優先順序並考慮選擇必須添加到管道中的最佳後續化合物。謝謝。

All right. Thanks, Vikram. Sheldon, do you want to take the first part and then maybe Didier Scherrer and Marc can weigh in on the the approach to combination.

好的。謝謝，維克拉姆。謝爾頓，你想參加第一部分嗎？ 然後迪迪埃謝勒和馬克可以對組合方法進行權衡。

Yeah. So Vikram, what data we're going to present first quarter 2025. We're still in discussion internally as to how extensive because we have to manage, obviously, a maintenance study that's concurrently running. So we will we're going to get some clarity on that as we go a little further down.

是的。Vikram，我們將提供 2025 年第一季的數據。我們仍在內部討論範圍有多大，因為顯然我們必須管理同時運作的維護研究。因此，當我們進一步深入時，我們將對此進行一些澄清。

I think the second question that you had was about the KOLs, again, it's due and I wasn't clear on winning on efficacy. Can you just clarify that question? I apologize. I didn't quite catch it.

我認為你提出的第二個問題是關於 KOL 的，同樣，這是到期的，我不清楚是否會在功效上獲勝。你能澄清一下這個問題嗎？我道歉。我不太明白。

Yeah, I was just wondering, I mean, as you speak with more KOLs in the space and as the Phase 3 program progresses, how is your view on what done a win on efficacy from the induction readout? What that could look like in 1Q?

是的，我只是想知道，我的意思是，當您與該領域更多的 KOL 交談以及第三階段計劃的進展時，您如何看待從誘導讀數中獲得功效的方法？第一季會是什麼樣子？

Yeah. So that boy, I'd tell you I wish I had the crystal ball for that one where, again, we're blinded to the data currently. And the only thing I could tell you that it is really more anecdotal is when we meet with key opinion leaders or investigators who participated in our 2b program who continue to have patients enrolled, they tend to be very enthusiastic about the opportunity for obefazimod because many of these many of these patients were at the point of going into surgery, and we hear these stories another anecdotal.

是的。所以那個男孩，我想告訴你，我希望我有水晶球，因為我們目前對數據視而不見。我唯一可以告訴你的是，這確實更具軼事性，當我們與參與我們2b 計畫的關鍵意見領袖或研究人員會面時，他們繼續招募患者，他們往往對奧苯莫德的機會非常熱情，因為許多人其中許多患者正處於接受手術的階段，我們聽到這些故事又是一個軼事。

And so I don't want to give any kind of over-promise under-deliver expectations, but this is coming from investigators who really have had who have patients who have gone through just about every other therapy. So when it comes to our expectations, we modeled the Phase 3b study to be very competitive induction results with the current offerings on the market that's as best as I could tell you right now.

因此，我不想給出任何過度承諾但兌現不足的期望，但這是來自真正經歷過幾乎所有其他治療的患者的研究人員。因此，當談到我們的期望時，我們將 3b 期研究建模為與市場上當前產品相比非常具有競爭力的誘導結果，這是我現在可以告訴您的最佳結果。

Thank you, and I'll hand it off to do the issuer chip.

謝謝，我會把它交給做發行晶片的。

Sure, I can, yeah tackled the follow-up compound question. So basically, yes, so we're working on a follow-on compound. Unfortunately, I cannot disclose the exact criteria we're trying to optimize. But in general, I mean, we're looking at to say liquidity.

當然，我可以，是的，解決了後續複合問題。所以基本上，是的，所以我們正在研究一種後續化合物。不幸的是，我無法透露我們正在嘗試優化的確切標準。但總的來說，我的意思是，我們正在考慮流動性。

I mean, looking at the I will jump on that based on the same way. So we're trying to be around, you know, physical chemical, chemistry, properties of the compound, but also in term of addiction and efficacy. So, I cannot go into too much detail, obviously for competitive reasons, but that's what we do right now.

我的意思是，看看我會以同樣的方式跳上這一點。所以我們試著圍繞著化合物的物理、化學、化學特性，以及成癮性和功效進行研究。所以，我不能透露太多細節，顯然是出於競爭原因，但這就是我們現在所做的。

Fair enough. Thank you very helpful.

很公平。謝謝你非常有幫助。

(Operator Instructions)

（操作員說明）

Julian Harrison, BTIG. Please go ahead.

朱利安·哈里森，BTIG。請繼續。

Hi, congrats on all the recent progress and thank you for taking my questions regarding your follow-on program obefazimod. I know it's early, but I'm curious if you have a good sense now of how you plan to prioritize IBD versus other I&I indications, given how broadly relevant the mechanism likely is.

您好，祝賀您最近的所有進展，並感謝您回答我有關後續計劃奧法齊莫德的問題。我知道現在還為時過早，但考慮到該機制可能具有廣泛的相關性，我很好奇您現在是否清楚計劃如何優先考慮 IBD 與其他 I&I 適應症。

And then regarding combination regimens down the road. I'm curious if there are any external data events that could inform your future decisions there? Or will that be based mainly on internally generated data.

然後是關於未來的聯合治療方案。我很好奇是否有任何外部資料事件可以為您未來的決策提供資訊？或主要基於內部產生的數據。

Thanks Julien, thanks for your question. Maybe I turn to Didier Scherrer with regards to the combination and then if delve in a remarkable way in a relative to the competitive events that might inform our decisions?

謝謝朱利安，謝謝你的問題。也許我會向迪迪埃·謝勒（Didier Scherrer）尋求有關組合的建議，然後是否以一種非凡的方式深入研究可能為我們的決策提供資訊的競爭性事件？

Yes. So the way you have in combination, the way we look at the combination of these two is a different way. I mean, obviously, we can look at combination based on the complementary MOA that could make sense. So that's one we can look at it in terms of what can we improve, you know, with the combo.

是的。所以你的組合方式，我們看待這兩者組合的方式是不同的。我的意思是，顯然，我們可以考慮基於互補 MOA 的組合，這可能是有意義的。所以我們可以從我們可以透過組合改進什麼來看待它。

We know based on the profiles of two compound we want to combine, but also we can look at it, you know, from a from a payer perspective and looking at some compounds that for example, can go generic and is the combo approach of those type of compound.

我們知道基於我們想要組合的兩種化合物的概況，但我們也可以從付款人的角度來看待它，並查看一些化合物，例如，可以通用並且是這些化合物的組合方法化合物的類型。

So this different approach we're looking at right now. We're looking at the preclinical data running preclinical experiments. I don't know if the decision will be fully based on preclinical data.

所以我們現在正在研究這種不同的方法。我們正在研究運行臨床前實驗的臨床前數據。我不知道這個決定是否完全基於臨床前數據。

But right now, we're waiting to see what we're going to get from the experience.

但現在，我們正在等待看看我們將從這次經歷中得到什麼。

Maybe I can jump in just on further consideration. I think obviously beyond the preclinical experiments, no, well, attentive to a, you know, a number of things, a general first, you know, as you know, many of the large companies are developing their own combo programs.

也許我可以進一步考慮一下。我認為顯然超出了臨床前實驗，不，嗯，關注很多事情，首先是一般性的，你知道，正如你所知，許多大公司正在開發自己的組合計劃。

So that's obviously one thing we have to think about that when we took advantage of our presence at echo where we met, I think about 30 investigators from different nationalities to ask them about what do you think about where combination therapy is going? What are you looking for and all that kind of thing that would attract you.

因此，這顯然是我們必須考慮的一件事，當我們利用我們在迴聲會面的機會時，我想到了來自不同國家的 30 名研究人員，詢問他們您對聯合治療的發展有何看法？你在尋找什麼以及所有那些會吸引你的東西。

And especially as you think about obefazimod profile from Phase 2b and we are actually, I think a different sort of thoughts. The first one, by the way, this was also in conjunction with another presentation at echo was the fact that some doctors believe that it would be highly valuable to each hub and with a strong combination in terms of efficacy for induction so that you can reduce the inflammation to the maximum and therefore, increase of is obviously the response.

尤其是當你想到 2b 階段的奧法齊莫德概況時，我們實際上，我認為有不同的想法。順便說一句，第一個，這也與迴聲中的另一個演示相結合，一些醫生認為這對每個中心都非常有價值，並且在誘導功效方面具有強大的組合，以便您可以減少炎症達到最大程度，因此，明顯的反應是增加。

And then actually potentially a drug like obefazimod, demand in maintenance, given again, the strong early profile we have in that in that setting. So that's sort of the first school of thoughts. The second school of thought was that it actually sort of on the other side of the spectrum where some doctors told us, we'd rather use combination really more to other, you know, when there is less and less options available to us certainly because of safety considerations. So we would want to in order to employ combination therapy for more than patients and certainly before a potential surgery.

然後實際上可能是像奧法齊莫德這樣的藥物，維持需求，再次考慮到我們在這種情況下的早期表現。這就是第一種思想流派。第二個想法是，它實際上有點相反，一些醫生告訴我們，我們寧願更多地使用組合，你知道，當我們可用的選擇越來越少時，當然是因為的安全考慮。因此，我們希望能夠對更多患者（當然是在潛在的手術之前）採用聯合療法。

And then the third one. So the school of thought was, well, you should combine with obefazimod also with the same drug safety ultimately is paramount to this young population. We don't want to add them, obviously, as we tried to control your disease and you should really consider on your safety as big as a key criteria to combat.

然後是第三個。因此，學派的觀點是，你應該與奧貝齊莫德結合使用，同樣的藥物安全性最終對這個年輕人來說至關重要。顯然，我們不想添加它們，因為我們試圖控制您的疾病，您應該真正考慮您的安全作為對抗的關鍵標準。

So I think this is why in the current preclinical program, we are going to have a vast array of mid-century experiments. So that we better understand for different type of drugs that could be combined in our what's what's happening.

所以我認為這就是為什麼在目前的臨床前計劃中，我們將進行大量的中世紀實驗。這樣我們就可以更了解不同類型的藥物可以組合在我們身上發生了什麼。

And then, you know, finally, we see that I think you'll see that the doctors cannot comment upon is a is a reimbursement payers environment that's going to be easy to evolve over time as the drug some of the drugs get a generic side or get into biosimilars events.

然後，你知道，最後，我們看到，我想你會看到，醫生無法評論的是一個報銷付款人的環境，隨著時間的推移，隨著某些藥物獲得仿製藥的一面，這種環境容易發生變化或參與生物相似藥活動。

So we don't obviously to bear that in mind. I really think through the combination therapy and then in the end, I would say for us will apply to make a choice on one combo development because it's going to be very hard, as you know, to finance in multiple combination human trials saying it's going to be a very difficult so we'll have no probably by year-end or next year, we'll have to reflect on all those parameters.

所以我們顯然不會記住這一點。我真的透過聯合療法進行了思考，最後，我想說的是，我們將申請對一種聯合療法做出選擇，因為如你所知，為多種聯合療法的人體試驗提供資金將非常困難。這是一個非常困難的事情，所以到年底或明年我們可能不會有這樣的情況，我們必須反思所有這些參數。

And if you're out nowhere, where are we with advanced communication therapy with the [facility.]

如果你無處可去，我們在哪裡進行先進的溝通治療[設施。

Very helpful. Thank you.

非常有幫助。謝謝。

Thank you. There are no further questions at this time. This concludes today's conference call. Thank you for participating. You may now disconnect.

謝謝。目前沒有其他問題。今天的電話會議到此結束。感謝您的參與。您現在可以斷開連線。